[M2GTI]

Originally Posted by xps

Call me crazy but I picked another one this weekend. Same color minus the carbon roof and the bi color wheels replaced with all black.

It felt like I was rushing into this one but after sitting into the car with sun roof it does feel much welcoming with the extra light. Not sure if this is going to burn me during resale but I am happy with the purchase atm. May be will try roof wrap if it bothers me too much.

And this time I towed it home and I am not driving it till the turner skid plates arrive and gets installed. .

Already replaced the mirror caps too!

Met a fellow forum member who was pickingup another TR, ended up introducing myself as the OP and it was fun talking!

Congrats! I hope BMW paid for your turner skid plate!!😂

[anthemavm]

Originally Posted by xps

Update: the car is totaled

That is good news, did insurance hit you with any depreciation?

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by anthemavm

That is good news, did insurance hit you with any depreciation?

They shouldn’t have. M2s are listed used higher than MSRP in most areas.

Anyone else note how this thread never appeared on the homepage. Things like this never will again like they used to in the past. If it does make it, it will be framed in a “new m2 totaled by road debris,” light.

[anthemavm]

Originally Posted by Fugly M3

They shouldn’t have. M2s are listed used higher than MSRP in most areas.

Anyone else note how this thread never appeared on the homepage. Things like this never will again like they used to in the past. If it does make it, it will be framed in a “new m2 totaled by road debris,” light.

They shouldn't, but dealing with insurance daily they make every chance to save a few bucks.

[apez]

Originally Posted by xps

Call me crazy but I picked another one this weekend. Same color minus the carbon roof and the bi color wheels replaced with all black.

Congrats! Glad you were able to pick up a new car so quickly after insurance totalled it.

Now if you could only collect some commission on all the skid plates you have sold....

[sammyj]

For anyone that's waiting, noticed that the Zunsport grille was back in stock. Ordered mine!

[mynameisnick4]

Originally Posted by Fugly M3

xps I know that sucks, but it's likely the best outcome for you. You'd think the insurers would figure this out pretty quick and put the pressure on BMW. I won't hold my breath!

Nah they will just gladly jack our rates up.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by xps

Update: the car is totaled

Originally Posted by Fugly M3

xps I know that sucks, but it's likely the best outcome for you. You'd think the insurers would figure this out pretty quick and put the pressure on BMW. I won't hold my breath!

This is kind of hilarious (on BMW's part).

BMW makes great products and these cars are fast as heck on the track.

But the replacement cost for major items like the engine/transmission make a domestic car like the 2024+ Mustang Dark Horse more palpatable for track use.

It will be slower than a G8X BMW M car, but a replacement engine will probably be sub $5k in parts.

[sammyj]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

This is kind of hilarious (on BMW's part).

BMW makes great products and these cars are fast as heck on the track.

But the replacement cost for major items like the engine/transmission make a domestic car like the 2024+ Mustang Dark Horse more palpatable for track use.

It will be slower than a G8X BMW M car, but a replacement engine will probably be sub $5k in parts.

Dude, I’m sorry but what the hell are you talking about? You seriously think that a replacement dark horse engine costs 5k?

[NewToM]

Originally Posted by sammyj

Dude, I’m sorry but what the hell are you talking about? You seriously think that a replacement dark horse engine costs 5k?

$5001?

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Hahahahahahahaha

Originally Posted by sammyj

Dude, I’m sorry but what the hell are you talking about? You seriously think that a replacement dark horse engine costs 5k?

Originally Posted by NewToM

$5001?

https://www.oemfordpart.com/oem-part...UtMGwtdjgtZ2Fz

Using the 5.0 Coyote from the Mach 1 as a reference - $4,383. It's a similar design. It's NOT the 5.2L flat plane from the GT350.

The Tremec 6MT in the Mach 1 is about $1,400:

https://www.oemfordpart.com/oem-part...bC12OC1nYXM%3D

Everyone laughs until they nuke a BMW engine at the track - I was laughing too when my N55 blew up. But I'd rather not have to buy a brand new engine - because the 2 used N55s my shop sourced were defective.


I mean, it *is* pretty funny how a failed BMW engine on a newer car (with no other significant structural/frame damage) can total a new car.

The parts replacement costs for this type of failure are enormous. The MSRP for a new long block is about $25k. If you had an engine oil starvation problem, chances are your turbos need to be replaced as well. The MSRP on the turbos are $3k a piece. Now you're looking at over $30k in major replacement parts alone. That doesn't even include the labor to replace those components. I can see how this type of failure would probably cost more than 50% of the MSRP of a new car. Since all these M2s are used, chances are the % is even higher which would lead insurance to total the car.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

https://www.oemfordpart.com/oem-part...UtMGwtdjgtZ2Fz

Using the 5.0 Coyote from the Mach 1 as a reference - $4,383. It's a similar design. It's NOT the 5.2L flat plane from the GT350.

The Tremec 6MT in the Mach 1 is about $1,400:

https://www.oemfordpart.com/oem-part...bC12OC1nYXM%3D

Everyone laughs until they nuke a BMW engine at the track - I was laughing too when my N55 blew up. But I'd rather not have to buy a brand new engine - because the 2 used N55s my shop sourced were defective.


I mean, it *is* pretty funny how a failed BMW engine on a newer car (with no other significant structural/frame damage) can total a new car.

The parts replacement costs for this type of failure are enormous. The MSRP for a new long block is about $25k. If you had an engine oil starvation problem, chances are your turbos need to be replaced as well. The MSRP on the turbos are $3k a piece. Now you're looking at over $30k in major replacement parts alone. That doesn't even include the labor to replace those components. I can see how this type of failure would probably cost more than 50% of the MSRP of a new car. Since all these M2s are used, chances are the % is even higher which would lead insurance to total the car.

A $5K Coyote engine would not last very long at decent NA power levels (500bhp or more). The stock V8 parts quality, including cheap aftermarket parts is shockingly bad for high revs (above 7500RPM redline). When I was shopping around for good engine balancing people, it was if I was talking Greek to most of them here in North America, when I started asking for parts balanced to expected European high revving 4-cylinder specs.

I'm just rebuilding my Caterham 2.0 Duratec to be able to rev to 9,000RPM (although I will probably limit to 8300RPM in normal use), to balance the rotating components to within 25g.mm (1 gram.inch) and reciprocating parts to within 0.1g was expensive for both the quality parts and balancing services. The stock Ford v8s come from the factory with balance about that number in gram inches (about 700g.mm).

Quality parts cost a lot, no matter who the manufacturer is.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by aerobod

A $5K Coyote engine would not last very long at decent NA power levels (500bhp or more). The stock V8 parts quality, including cheap aftermarket parts is shockingly bad for high revs (above 7500RPM redline). When I was shopping around for good engine balancing people, it was if I was talking Greek to most of them here in North America, when I started asking for parts balanced to expected European high revving 4-cylinder specs.

I'm just rebuilding my Caterham 2.0 Duratec to be able to rev to 9,000RPM (although I will probably limit to 8300RPM in normal use), to balance the rotating components to within 25g.mm (1 gram.inch) and reciprocating parts to within 0.1g was expensive for both the quality parts and balancing services. The stock Ford v8s come from the factory with balance about that number in gram inches (about 700g.mm).

Quality parts cost a lot, no matter who the manufacturer is.

Stock factory configuration only goes up to 500hp. I would want to keep it that way as to not give a dealer or manufacturer any more ways to void a warranty than necessary.

If it blows up under the new factory warranty from a mechanical defect and not driver error such as a mis-shift, it's the dealer's problem. (Same applies to a BMW and this is why I never 'tuned' my N55 while it was under its factory and extended warranty).

Fortunately, Granger Ford does sell Ford extended warranties on these vehicles. The picture below is for 2024 Mustangs.

These days, I'm only interested in a vehicle that needs very little to be track ready. Tires, wheels, brake pads is about all I want to change. (I also don't want ridiculous catastrophic part replacement costs either.)

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by xps

Update: the car is totaled

Sad but congrats, that’s the best possible outcome for you. Hope you find a new car.

[1Scientist]

It was nice meeting you, congrats again on the new ride! Glad everything is working out for you. I’m only 70 miles in, but I’m really liking mine so far.

Originally Posted by xps

Call me crazy but I picked another one this weekend. Same color minus the carbon roof and the bi color wheels replaced with all black.

It felt like I was rushing into this one but after sitting into the car with sun roof it does feel much welcoming with the extra light. Not sure if this is going to burn me during resale but I am happy with the purchase atm. May be will try roof wrap if it bothers me too much.

And this time I towed it home and I am not driving it till the turner skid plates arrive and gets installed. .

Already replaced the mirror caps too!

Met a fellow forum member who was pickingup another TR, ended up introducing myself as the OP and it was fun talking!

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by M2siast

I get what you’re saying.
I got hung up on “black horse” and on the fact we’re comparing only parts and not labour (OP was quoted for an all-in price).

But it does seem like the Ford would be cheaper. Just how much is the question.

I think the labor is going to be far more similar than the difference in parts cost (which is on the order of 5x more expensive for BMW).

There is a lot more plumbing in the engine bay of an S58 vehicle (due to the forced induction) and the engine bay is far more packed.

I would ballpark labor to be 25-50% more expensive on the BMW because the S58 platform is far newer and more complex. A smaller shop may not be comfortable or have the necessary experience on a newer G8X chassis vehicle whereas the S550/S650 chassis are so similar. BMW dealerships probably have a higher labor rate than Ford dealerships.

But the overall the methodology/process for engine removal is very similar between the BMW and Ford.


The difference in parts cost changes the repair/replacement strategy though. I would imagine someone is far more incentivized to source a used engine in a BMW than they would in a Ford because of the potential savings. It's probably not worth taking the risk on a used engine (or even doing more comprehensive root cause analysis) on a Ford because of the relative part cost to labor cost. You just put a new long block in the car and call it a day.

I will note the repair/replacement strategy for the E46 platform is far more akin to Ford than to the newer BMWs. Why even bother doing root cause analysis on a M54 engine when you can source a used one for a couple hundred bucks? Just throw that sucker in and wait for it to go "boom" again.

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

https://www.oemfordpart.com/oem-part...UtMGwtdjgtZ2Fz

Using the 5.0 Coyote from the Mach 1 as a reference - $4,383. It's a similar design. It's NOT the 5.2L flat plane from the GT350.

The Tremec 6MT in the Mach 1 is about $1,400:

https://www.oemfordpart.com/oem-part...bC12OC1nYXM%3D

Everyone laughs until they nuke a BMW engine at the track - I was laughing too when my N55 blew up. But I'd rather not have to buy a brand new engine - because the 2 used N55s my shop sourced were defective.


I mean, it *is* pretty funny how a failed BMW engine on a newer car (with no other significant structural/frame damage) can total a new car.

The parts replacement costs for this type of failure are enormous. The MSRP for a new long block is about $25k. If you had an engine oil starvation problem, chances are your turbos need to be replaced as well. The MSRP on the turbos are $3k a piece. Now you're looking at over $30k in major replacement parts alone. That doesn't even include the labor to replace those components. I can see how this type of failure would probably cost more than 50% of the MSRP of a new car. Since all these M2s are used, chances are the % is even higher which would lead insurance to total the car.

Nobody cares about Mustangs, piss off.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Cool estimate, now we just need the price of the black horse engine. I couldn’t find it.

If the engine is really not very expensive, you wonder where the money went on the rest of the Mustang, with it being about the same price as the M2 and much more down market interior wise, with no advantage in the mechanicals other than the engine, too.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Cool estimate, now we just need the price of the black horse engine. I couldn’t find it.

So what I've noticed is that unless someone has access to Ford EPC or microCAT, it's really hard to find part numbers for anything that's 1-2 years old or even for a detailed parts diagram.

The same could be said of BMW's ETK. RealOEM only goes up to a certain date. The best I've seen is the parts site for BMW Northwest on newer BMWs as far as part number lookups.

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

Nobody cares about Mustangs, piss off.

Umadbro?

Originally Posted by aerobod

If the engine is really not very expensive, you wonder where the money went on the rest of the Mustang, with it being about the same price as the M2 and much more down market interior wise, with no advantage in the mechanicals other than the engine, too.

Originally Posted by M2siast

That was exactly my thought when I laughed so hard. The engine costs 5k and the car is more expensive than an M2 with worse build quality. A killing for Ford. Or they’re too inefficient at building cars and BMW has nailed down production.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the profit margin on BMW parts is significantly higher than most domestic brands. For example, you hear about FCPEuro, ECS Tuning, etc. with their lifetime parts warranty, but the same doesn't exist for domestic parts retailers. The only thing that makes sense to me is that the cost to produce parts for the manufacturer (BMW and Ford) isn't all that different. In other words, while the S58 probably costs more than the Coyote to manufacture, I don't believe the true production cost is 5x greater. But BMW requires more specialized tools and diagnostic equipment (ISTA) to repair/maintain. (Fortunately, I have been able to DIY a lot at home because I have ISTA).

I've said it on the Mustang7G forums, but with the MSRP (for a DH + Handling Package), it's not that far from a C8 Z51.

I think you'll see actual market selling prices trend towards 3-4% under invoice not including incentives by 2026. Granted, you'll probably see closer to invoice pricing on BMW M cars in a year or two as long as production keeps improving.

But the point is that a mechanical failure of any major powertrain item resulting from a design defect shouldn't result in the car to be "totaled" - save that for the EV market. That's a serious consideration for track use once these vehicles are out of the factory warranty. Unfortunately, I suspect it'll impact BMW CCA HPDE participation in a few years - it already has. I already see the demographic changing to more domestic vehicles at the track whereas you used to see mostly E36, E46, and maybe E90 M cars.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by M2siast

I don’t think you understand what we said about the price of the engine vs price of the car, or you failed to address it on purpose. Where is the cost of development of a cheaply made mustang if not in the engine? Is Ford just making a killing on that car? Or are they spending too much on its assembly? Something is off if they can have an engine that costs 5x less than the BMW (according to you), they have a car that has cheaper materials and worse build quality, and still has a higher selling price than a BMW…

One thing you’re conflating too is price with cost, these are very different things.
I get that you think that a replacement engine should have a lower price to the end consumer. That has nothing to do with how much it costs for it to be produced.
The price of the item is set based on multiple factors. Remember these are cars that have months-worth of wait times to be delivered? It’s not in the company’s interest to feed the after sales parts supply. Parts prices are astronomically higher than they cost because of that.

Unless someone has inside BMW and Ford knowledge, no one knows for sure.

Also can't rule out a hypothetical case where the 5.0 Coyote costs ~$3,000 to produce whereas the S58 costs $8,000 to produce. As the consumer, all we would know (or be able to surmise at this point) is the part cost to the consumer.

Originally Posted by M2siast

Ford’s business model includes selling crate engines. BMW does not sell crate engines.

I suspect Ford does NOT sell late model crate engines. And, if their supply chain is constrained, these engines should have a much higher price than the crate engines as well. Comparing a crate Coyote engine’s price with an unknown one cannot be done.

I thought they did...

https://performanceparts.ford.com/engines/#Coyote

Originally Posted by M2siast

Let’s find how much a Dark Horse engine costs to the end consumer at the retail point (dealer) and compare.
My guess? It’s not far off from the BMW, and if it totals a Dark Horse or not we don’t know. But I’m not going to speculate on it, because it’s irrelevant. If you are willing to give a dealer a call to get a quote on a new dark horse engine installed (with their labour included) to compare, I’d be curious. Otherwise, none of these comparisons make any sense and your initial claim is fallacious.

When you say "Dark Horse engine", you seem to imply that the engine is radically different from the 5.0 Coyote that is in the Mustang GT. If this was a GT500, the engine would be radically different. But the intent of the Mach 1 / Dark Horse, etc. is to focus on suspension /chassis improvements while using a common powertrain with minor variations at most.

Since the differences in the "Dark Horse engine" and the standard 5.0 Coyote in the GT are internals, the labor should be similar. The first Google result seems to indicate that this person paid about $2250 in labor to have his Coyote replaced: https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/thr...nstall.161853/
(I think his labor is a little low and the price for his engine is slightly high.)

I was looking at other 5.0 Coyote variants and variant for the F150 surprised me at $6,229: https://www.oemfordpart.com/oem-part...0wbC12OC1mbGV4
(I'm curious if this is due to the Flex Fuel capability along with the dual alternator setup for the Pro Power Onboard system.)

I paid about $3000-3500 in labor to have a new N55 put into my 335i after I put a hole through the engine block at VIR in 2021. Note there are variations of the N55 - the M235i uses an N55 that has a forged crankshaft whereas the 335i uses the "standard" N55. The cost is more or less the same... +/- $100-300 on a $14k engine.

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by xps

Update: the car is totaled

Been following the thread.

Think that is great news.

Even though there is no body/chassis damage I suspect BMW wanted the car back to study the car, the damage. BMW might even reassess its apparent lack of protection to a rather exposed cooler.

[RockCrusher]

Don't know about Mustang engine costs or even BMW engine costs, but some years ago I got a quote for a factory replacement engine for my 2002 Boxster 2.7l 217hp engine.

Did not need a new engine was just curious.

Anyhow, a new factory engine was $19,000 with a core. $26,000 without a core. Price did not include cost to swap out old engine and install new engine.

This for a car that I bought new in Jan. 2002 for $43,000.