[LanceBiggons]

Background. I owned a 23 G80 M3 comp Xdrive auto. That car spun up really quikcly and the throttle response was ridiculous. Tap the gas and you were flying.

I drove the 24 M2 6MT yesterday and I was not impressed by the throttle response. I had the car in the most aggressive setting without being in track mode.

The car is really good but one thing I noticed was throttle lag when punching it after a down shift. I am not sure if this is turbo lag or engine tunning. On the M3 (albeit geared differently) you could punch it and the car responded immediately. On the M2 I floored it at 3000 RPM in 2 gear and it did nothing for about 1 second. I even drove the new Z4 6MT and this was much more responsive in this respect. The M2 throttle lag was on par with the BRZ 6MT when scaled for horsepower.

Imagine wanting to pass a car at 55 mph, downshift to 3rd gear, and then floor it. I was expecting to be thrown back but instead there was an annoying pause.

Is this turbo lag, tunning, traction control?

I wonder if the 25 model solved this problem. The engine is more than capable of pushing the car in this RPM range.

Please share your thoughts or let me know in anyone else already addressed this.

I wonder if the 6MT G80 M3/4 may spool up faster.

[DoritoKing]

I think what you're experiencing is due to a combination of factors.

1. Torque: The 2023-2024 g87 M2 MT has 406 lb/ft while the g80/82 comps have 479 lb/ft. This makes a huge difference in how much shove there is at low rpm

2. Gearing: The manual gear ratios are taller than the AT, so 2nd gear at 3000rpm in the manual will net you less torque multiplication than the same gear and rpm in the AT

The 2025 AT gets a 36 lb/ft torque increase, which would help with that low end shove, but the MT will never get more than 406 lb/ft from BMW due to it being at the limit of the transmission's torque rating.

If low end torque is important to you, I don't think the manual M2 is the right car for you.

[mynameisnick4]

Like the other poster said, pretty sure it's about gearing when you are talking about MT vs AT. When it comes to the Z4 that has the B58 which is going to have different characteristics down low vs the S58. I even noticed this difference going from the N55 F87 to the G87.

If I want the most immediate response in my G87 at lower speeds/around town, I have to be more cognisant of where I am in the RPM range than I did in the N55 F87. However the difference at the top of the rev range is massive between the two.

[mrdudley]

Not like you can test this before you buy, but swapping the midpipe for a single that removes the secondary cats and resonators felt like it improved throttle response considerably.

[LanceBiggons]

Thanks for the insight! It looks like the manual G80 also has the same torque. The M2 is heavier than the Z4 which also may be why the B58 feels better in this scenario. I prefer a punch in the mid range rather than at the top end. I wonder if a tune will fix this problem. Other than the "punch" the M2 is fantastic. The ZF AT in my M3 comp was amazing but the drive engagement of the manual is what I seek. I also feel that the M2 MT is great. I read reviews and was expecting a terrible experience but the shifting was precise and smooth.

[techwhiz1]

So you are trying to compare an AT xDrive Comp M3 to a 6SP manual M2, which is probably down 70lb ft of torque and a bunch of horses.

That is an apples to oranges comparison.

First AWD will have a huge advantage with traction.

But beyond that the AT will shift under boost. When you downshift you lift the throttle and then have to get back on the throttle to get back into boost for the 6SP. You do not need to lift the throttle on an AT in an upshift or downshift.

The computer will decide how much fuel to deliver and override your foot while it shifts.

Also the ratios of an 8SP ZF are a bit closer than the 6SP and I would guess 3rd in the AT maps to 2nd in the 6SP.

I drove 2023 6SP M3 a few months ago and couldn't have been happier knowing the M2 has that drivetrain.

[LanceBiggons]

I agree. Apples to oranges comparing the ZF and 6 MT. What I would like to know if this car (with a tune) would be capable of delivering a punch at 3000 rpms in the fun gears. I expected that wide open throttle would throw me backwards rather than have as much lag as it did. Perhaps the better comparison is the Z4 B58 6MT which will deliver punch in this range despite having less power (I realize there is a weight difference). The punch at WOT in the mid RPM range is what makes a sports care feels sporty. I did not experience this in the 24 M2 6MT which was surprising.

[BroDoze]

Well-known the B58 has a lot more low-end punch from a dig.
This is yet another reason the 6MT did not impress me with its long 1st n 2nd gears. S58 will bust your balls in the mid-top end. Keeps pulling like a freight-train up top.

[JMcLellan]

I had this same experience when I test drove a manual G87. Floored it in 2nd gear doing about 30 mph and was not impressed with the lag. I had just sold my 8 speed auto B58 M240i so was very used to low end get up and go.

The sales guy told me to rev out the manual. I did some rips in 3rd and revved it out. Immediately changed my mind on the car but yes you have to keep the revs high for better response. But this S58 is scary on the top end.

[LanceBiggons]

Thanks for all of the great input! I am glad that others have noticed this characteristic. For those of you that notice this, what is your trick for spirited driving.

[Mr. Hankey]

Originally Posted by LanceBiggons

Thanks for all of the great input! I am glad that others have noticed this characteristic. For those of you that notice this, what is your trick for spirited driving.

Keep it in higher rev range…it just starts to wake up around 3k rpms…pretty awake by 4K….so land your upshifts in the 3800k range or higher and it will be much perkier driving. This car can really be driven as a slow grocery hauler completely under 3K rpms. Different animal completely above that.

I think the “mild tune” the ‘25s got addresses this mid range a bit, but in the AT, not so much the MT.

[Squidget]

I love how the "4th gear challenge"* thing is evergreen and comes around again every 6 months.

To recap real quick: motors that are punchy down low (N55s, B58s) are great daily driving engines, and let you get away with low-RPM driving. But they typically totally fade on the high end.

Is a problem for expert drivers trying to move a car around a track. You want more top end torque, since you'll be generating more power (because math). And if you are racing you know enough to keep the RPMs up high.

So a motor like the S58 is "tuned high," rather than "tuned low," because it gives you much more track potential. It's by design. It's less "approachable to the masses" but has a higher ceiling.

The PROBLEM is when casual drivers don't know this, and they misuse the motor. It's just tuned to be driven high, not low. Not a deficit, not a bug. It's a feature.

Drive around town at 5000 RPM for a while, and you'll see.

*And for the long time forum goers: No, I will never forgive Throttle House for their absolute garbage take.

[baj_baj]

This engine needs to be driven more like an NA engine or oldschool big turbo car, the power is up top. The auto can mask that due to very short gearing, manual needs to always be a gear lower.
Floor the car in second gear around 3500-4000rpm without traction control and the throttle will respond just fine

[ajchoi]

I’m about to get my break in service in a week or so, but I plan to drive this car like an extremely fast version of an old Honda I had - it’s clear with the manual you have to keep this car at higher RPMs to get the most out of the power band. Can’t wait for that! Counting down the days now lol

[AZG87M2]

This thread reminds me of the comments made by Car & Driver way back when they road tested a late 80s 911 Turbo. The boost was non-existent until 4k. "A cheerleader in a clapped-out Mustang II will have no trouble beating you across an intersection while checking her makeup. As a matter of fact, one did exactly that to us. Then the boost comes in as the revs go past 4500 rpm, the exhaust hisses like very angry 3000-pound cat, and whoosh! you rattle the Mustang's windows as you blow by." So, while new tech has largely eliminated huge turbo lag, higher strung manual turbo cars still have a degree of old school 'charm'!

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by AZG87M2

This thread reminds me of the comments made by Car & Driver way back when they road tested a late 80s 911 Turbo. The boost was non-existent until 4k. "A cheerleader in a clapped-out Mustang II will have no trouble beating you across an intersection while checking her makeup. As a matter of fact, one did exactly that to us. Then the boost comes in as the revs go past 4500 rpm, the exhaust hisses like very angry 3000-pound cat, and whoosh! you rattle the Mustang's windows as you blow by." So, while new tech has largely eliminated huge turbo lag, higher strung manual turbo cars still have a degree of old school 'charm'!

The S58 reminds me of my N54 335i.
Nothing below 3000 RPM.
The thing about these engines is to make the EPA mileage rating they have almost no low end. The turbos aren't spinning and you have no boost.

Get those RPMs up!

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

The S58 reminds me of my N54 335i.
Nothing below 3000 RPM.
The thing about these engines is to make the EPA mileage rating they have almost no low end. The turbos aren't spinning and you have no boost.

Get those RPMs up!

Yep. I still have an N55 335i (I can't give up that hydraulic steering lol), and the difference between dual turbos and dual scroll single turbo is very noticeable.

Put another way, the G87 hustles from 0-60 in the low 4 second range, and that's stock and without AWD. It does not lack power.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by ajchoi

I’m about to get my break in service in a week or so, but I plan to drive this car like an extremely fast version of an old Honda I had - it’s clear with the manual you have to keep this car at higher RPMs to get the most out of the power band. Can’t wait for that! Counting down the days now lol

Totally this. Anyone coming from naturally aspirated motors or motorcycles will be right at home.

If you are used to that kind of driving, you'll quickly find the G87 is traction-limited, not power-limited, in the lower gears.

There's also the matter of expectations. This is NOT a car you use to dig race from red light to red light, you'll get dusted by any garden variety AWD car or Tesla. Maybe the upcoming AWD G87 will be competitive, but I kinda doubt it? The Dig crown has passed to electric and hybrid AWD, I don't really expect any pure petrol car to compete these days.

[dienstag]

it's true it does not wake up until 3000rpm at least. But that's what downshifting is for. The only time I have problems is in 2nd gear, if I shift out of first early. Like for example I'm taking off from a red light and driving normally, but decide to have some fun in 2nd after clearing the intersection. Whoops, shifted too early, nothing there in 2nd yet, can't exactly get back in first.

For that reason I often ring out first longer than I normally would, in case I want to move quickly I still have the top of first, at least briefly lol.

[Mr. Hankey]

Originally Posted by Squidget

*And for the long time forum goers: No, I will never forgive Throttle House for their absolute garbage take.

[Dave07997S]

I actually like this. A sense of linearity, you have to drive it like a NA high revving engine. What's nice is it's not obnoxiously loud at that rpm and the smoothness of BMWs legendary I6 makes it feel effortless. .

[Ravenseal]

This car was designed to be revved out, I paid for all 7200 RPM and I'm going to use 7199.