[Kevin_The_Clean1]

Why are we still comparing mid engined & rear engined P-cars to the glorious dual purpose highly capable true M cars... ? At the end of the day, the P car still isn't what God would drive. LOL

[baege]

Originally Posted by RMB

I bought a 2016 GT4 new. By the time you pay for just regular service ($1000 for oil changes at dealership), put any miles on it to actually use it, it does go down in value enough that I personally don’t think it’s worth it. Plus, I bought a “GT” product because Porsche said “it was a street legal car meant to be used on track. The pinnacle of Porsche engineering and motorsport heritage”. However, after 3rd gear was blowing up on street driven GT4’s, Porsche reluctantly recalled them after over a year of complaints. I was personally told by my dealership if I don’t want a problem with it to never track it. Contact with PCNA didn’t offer any further help. Porsche is no different and no better than any other car manufacturer. They all have issues. Now, that was when the GT4 I had was with a MSRP around $86,000. Given all the significant price increases, I personally don’t think they are worth it now. But each person can buy one and see if it really is worth it to them. I would recommend spending time on forums to learn about potential issues though.

oh man again the 981 GT4 market is quite a bit different up here in the GWN

the msrp on the 981 GT4 was 96K up here in 2015 and I was offered one and passed on it!

they went up to 140K cdn in the next couple of years (my kicking myself marks still show I think)

they still go for for 120ish cdn for low mileage examples

thats 10 to 20K ABOVE msrp depending on options

a 2016 M2 with low milege goes for 45K ish

which is bascially 20K below msrp

that;s 30 to 40K difference in depreciation between a 2016 M2 and a 2016 GT4

and it is possible the Gt4 has hit the bottom of its depreciation curve

not sure you can say the same about the OG F87

does make you think about which car will actually cost you more in the end

[BRAKE!]

Originally Posted by sidewaysm2

Thank you so much for this reply! Is the described difference noticeable in daily driving situations or is that stuff that gets more relevant when you truly push the limits?

Hey, great questions and I think the thoughts you had about bmw vs pcar as the same ones I had before I bought my 718 GT4. Just as a background, I have driven a g82 on the track at the M school (which serves as a proxy), drove a 911 992 gts, turbo s, 718 GTS 4.0L on track at Barber, test drove my buddies g87 M2 manual and regularly drive my GT4 on the backroads/6 track days per year in 2 different road courses, and 4-5x autoX.

- The 718 feels a lot different from the get go than a M2. The BMW interior space and seating position is lot more conventional than the 718. In the Porsche you already sit a lot lower, cabin feels much more cramped and gives you a feeling that you are in something unconventional? Uncompromising? It does evoke a more sporty feeling even before you start the engine

- The sound of the flat 6 4.0L 9A2 motor, especially now that I have installed a JCR exhaust, is miles better than any inline 6 cylinder car. There is absolutely no comparison here between the 2 cars in terms of experience. It makes you feel like you are in a race car. It’s pure theater when taking it to redline (the GT3’s DFI engine with 9k is a yet another religious experience - every car enthusiast should experience that). The exhaust note, above all else swayed me to get the Porsche despite the tremendous value the M cars presented. The emotion you feel is not something that can be easily broken down into an objective comparison.

- handling: the cornering in a mid engine car is better with initial turn in (despite the understeer-y characteristics of the GT4 with stock alignment). It also gives you a lot of confidence in a corner or at track out that the Pcar will hold its line and put power down while accelerating. A newer 911 with rear axle steering is planted even more still and it takes A LOT to break traction. Whereas, the RWD M car is more playful, breaks traction much easier and you have to be more comfortable with oversteer to get the maximum out of it.

- power: hands down S58. It pulls like a freight train. The M autobox actually does a great job kicking down into the correct gear and it’s scary how fast it can accelerate. The low down torque from the turbo engine is impressive. Objectively it does everything well but the fake sound pumped into the cabin and the fake shifting noises kind of make it feel more digital and less special. The 911s turbo engines pull like the s58 but also lack in the sound/theater department compared to the NA engine.

I could go on and on about all the little nuances, but what it comes down to is that the 718 feels more like a purpose built sports car while the M2 feels like a coupe with sporty characteristics. The GT4 feels much more raw, while the bimmer feels more insulated (which can also be a good thing for longevity out on track with less fatigue). The M2 is phenomenal as is and I’m impressed every time I see one or get to drive one. You can’t lose with either as they are both so capable. I don’t see this as an either or, but rather different experiences. Try to have both one day

[baege]

Originally Posted by BRAKE!

Hey, great questions and I think the thoughts you had about bmw vs pcar as the same ones I had before I bought my 718 GT4. Just as a background, I have driven a g82 on the track at the M school (which serves as a proxy), drove a 911 992 gts, turbo s, 718 GTS 4.0L on track at Barber, test drove my buddies g87 M2 manual and regularly drive my GT4 on the backroads/6 track days per year in 2 different road courses, and 4-5x autoX.

- The 718 feels a lot different from the get go than a M2. The BMW interior space and seating position is lot more conventional than the 718. In the Porsche you already sit a lot lower, cabin feels much more cramped and gives you a feeling that you are in something unconventional? Uncompromising? It does evoke a more sporty feeling even before you start the engine

- The sound of the flat 6 4.0L 9A2 motor, especially now that I have installed a JCR exhaust, is miles better than any inline 6 cylinder car. There is absolutely no comparison here between the 2 cars in terms of experience. It makes you feel like you are in a race car. It’s pure theater when taking it to redline (the GT3’s DFI engine with 9k is a yet another religious experience - every car enthusiast should experience that). The exhaust note, above all else swayed me to get the Porsche despite the tremendous value the M cars presented. The emotion you feel is not something that can be easily broken down into an objective comparison.

- handling: the cornering in a mid engine car is better with initial turn in (despite the understeer-y characteristics of the GT4 with stock alignment). It also gives you a lot of confidence in a corner or at track out that the Pcar will hold its line and put power down while accelerating. A newer 911 with rear axle steering is planted even more still and it takes A LOT to break traction. Whereas, the RWD M car is more playful, breaks traction much easier and you have to be more comfortable with oversteer to get the maximum out of it.

- power: hands down S58. It pulls like a freight train. The M autobox actually does a great job kicking down into the correct gear and it’s scary how fast it can accelerate. The low down torque from the turbo engine is impressive. Objectively it does everything well but the fake sound pumped into the cabin and the fake shifting noises kind of make it feel more digital and less special. The 911s turbo engines pull like the s58 but also lack in the sound/theater department compared to the NA engine.

I could go on and on about all the little nuances, but what it comes down to is that the 718 feels more like a purpose built sports car while the M2 feels like a coupe with sporty characteristics. The GT4 feels much more raw, while the bimmer feels more insulated (which can also be a good thing for longevity out on track with less fatigue). The M2 is phenomenal as is and I’m impressed every time I see one or get to drive one. You can’t lose with either as they are both so capable. I don’t see this as an either or, but rather different experiences. Try to have both one day

you nailed it with lots of great insights

the right answer is always both

but if you are looking for just the most emotion, viscerality and fizz, the answer has to be a naturally aspirated manual porsche

[BLKM]

Originally Posted by sidewaysm2

First of all thanks for the great reply! Is there any way you can put into words how exactly it feels compared to the M2? As mentioned, incomprehensible for me how it can be better haha

When I point the Beamer anywhere it goes there, when I hit the gas pedal it moves, when I break it brakes. The only thing I can imagine to be better is that is accelerates faster, breaks slower and has more grip.

Faster, grippier, and better brakes just doesn’t sound like the magical experience people talk of when they drive 911s haha

I guess my brain is craving some well expressed driving review like maybe a Clarkson would do!

718… less utility than a 911 or M2 ie pure 2 seater so for me not a good comparison… 911 feels ‘racy’ and analogue … M2 feels like a refined muscle car
M2 a better daily because it’s smoother and quieter and can carry 4 adults better than the 911
Can’t go wrong with either cars 👍🏼

[ourlee]

I think I’m just gonna buy this:

[EMZWEI]

Driven a 992 gt3 and a 718gt4 RS and they are glorious cars. The motor is the same in both but the 911 does it for me. Incredible track focus beasts and in a different category than the M cars imho.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by EMZWEI

Driven a 992 gt3 and a 718gt4 RS and they are glorious cars. The motor is the same in both but the 911 does it for me. Incredible track focus beasts and in a different category that the M cars imho.

Yep, you can buy 2 M2s fully loaded for the price of a GT4 RS and about 3.5 fully loaded for a GT3 RS.

Not even in the same ballpark...

[rji57]

Had a 24 718 Boxster s and 19 M2C for a year, simultaneously. Both 6 speed.
Just sold the 718 and kept the M2C.
I think that speaks for itself, although, they’re 2 way different cars.
Haven’t driven the 25 M2 yet, but the 19 is a muscle car compared to the 718 roadster, which is way lighter, smoother, and less engagement than the M2.
Fun factor- convertibles are awesome in good weather, m2 can handle colder temps and more visceral than the 718.
Kept both cars bone stock if that means anything to you.

[fzr100098]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Yep, you can buy 2 M2s fully loaded for the price of a GT4 RS and about 3.5 fully loaded for a GT3 RS.

Not even in the same ballpark...

That's the main issue for me - even if I had an extra 250k to blow (which technically I do, but won't) it's a shame someone like Lotus or KTM (now bankrupt) can't get more serious about a purist sports car so the only option is the outrageous P tax

With that said, GT3s and GT4s are holding their value or appreciating, at least for now (as long as this stock market bubble holds)

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by ourlee

I think I’m just gonna buy this:

you will absolutely regret spending CPO G42 M240 money on a Golf R. the G42 will shame that car in just about any performance scenario without any appreciable dynamic gains elsewhere

[ourlee]

I don’t dig 240s even a little bit.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by ourlee

I don’t dig 240s even a little bit.

I've had enough "real" M cars to not want a 240.

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by ourlee

I don’t dig 240s even a little bit.

then rid the mk8 from your mind. and this is coming from a mk4 owner.

[Bumpinjeep]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

you will absolutely regret spending CPO G42 M240 money on a Golf R. the G42 will shame that car in just about any performance scenario without any appreciable dynamic gains elsewhere

Sort of. The Golf R does have things that the G42 simply doesn't, things that matter to car enthusiasts and from a practicality stand point.
You can get the Golf R with a manual transmission. That alone makes it a better option than a G42 to a car enthusiast. Is it slower than the DCT (which you can option in the R and not the G42) or the ZF auto, sure, but in the grand scheme of things, I want to enjoy driving and not just throw the thing into "D" and let it drive for me.
Also, you'd be surprised how much stuff you can shove in that R. With the seats down, there's a good amount of room in there. It's super practical in that sense.
From a performance perspective, yeah the G42 will blow the doors off of a Golf R. I did the M Performance Driving School with the G42 and it's a little monster.

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

Sort of. The Golf R does have things that the G42 simply doesn't, things that matter to car enthusiasts and from a practicality stand point.
You can get the Golf R with a manual transmission. That alone makes it a better option than a G42 to a car enthusiast. Is it slower than the DCT (which you can option in the R and not the G42) or the ZF auto, sure, but in the grand scheme of things, I want to enjoy driving and not just throw the thing into "D" and let it drive for me.
Also, you'd be surprised how much stuff you can shove in that R. With the seats down, there's a good amount of room in there. It's super practical in that sense.
From a performance perspective, yeah the G42 will blow the doors off of a Golf R. I did the M Performance Driving School with the G42 and it's a little monster.

unfortunately, the manual transmission option is gone for the mk8.5 R (which was the one in the video). i agree the offering of a manual would help, and did help on the 8, but without that option you're better off moving over to an S3 unless you ABSOLUTELY need a hatch. having driven an 8 before, i found it less engaging than the 7.5 before it, which frankly i have no particular love for despite the constant fawning and praise. i am slightly bias, but i think once the Rs become a general release model vs a limited run car, a lot of the magic was lost.

[ourlee]

I have no interest in a manual transmission.
This got bumped to a simple stage 1 300hp and promptly needed a clutch. The stiff ass street clutch worked great but was pretty damn heavy. I promised myself no more VAG manuals.

[baege]

Originally Posted by rji57

Had a 24 718 Boxster s and 19 M2C for a year, simultaneously. Both 6 speed.
Just sold the 718 and kept the M2C.
I think that speaks for itself, although, they’re 2 way different cars.
Haven’t driven the 25 M2 yet, but the 19 is a muscle car compared to the 718 roadster, which is way lighter, smoother, and less engagement than the M2.
Fun factor- convertibles are awesome in good weather, m2 can handle colder temps and more visceral than the 718.
Kept both cars bone stock if that means anything to you.

I get this, I went from a 2020 M2C to a 22 CGTS 4.0, the M2 was more fun in many ways but it was the large NA engine with a great manual in the 22 GTS that tipped the balance for me

718 turbo 4cyl vs M2 would be no contest for me, M2 all the way

[baege]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

you will absolutely regret spending CPO G42 M240 money on a Golf R. the G42 will shame that car in just about any performance scenario without any appreciable dynamic gains elsewhere

agree 100%
m240 over Golf R any day

looks, power, more character in the engine with 6cyl over 4cyl, overall premium feel (the G platform has an amazing poise to it, rock solid)

no brainer

[xtougher]

Not a car expert, but just like cars...so not gonna provide any new insight not already on here with performance or anything in that regard.

I will say that before I ordered my M2, I was considering a 718. But I kept configuring and re-configuring the cars (new, since I was looking for a 6MT and there weren't any available when I was looking) and they all kept coming back in the low $90k range for a BASE, and closer to or just above $100k for an S.

I just thought about it, then looked at the M2 at under $70k with everything I wanted checked off, and just couldn't justify the higher price for what my use case.

I'm sure there are things that could be argued that are better or worse on both cars, even at those prices.

But for me, with it being a daily with plans to keep it 8-10 years and approximately 100k miles (just based on what I've been doing with prior cars), didn't think it was a good choice for me.

Never tracking my car, sometimes in stand-still traffic, normal commutes, etc. I just like enjoying my time in the car...just maybe not at the same level as some of you all.

So after all that, I ultimately decided to put in an order for the M2 at the lower price, double the seats (which I almost never use), a normal sized trunk that golf clubs can fit into, more power, and more recently updated convenience features (that I had not had in prior cars).

That's just me though.

[OldButSmooth]

Originally Posted by baege

agree 100%
m240 over Golf R any day

looks, power, more character in the engine with 6cyl over 4cyl, overall premium feel (the G platform has an amazing poise to it, rock solid)

no brainer

As excellent a car as the Golf R is (having owned one several years ago), there is no comparing the VW EA888 with the M240's B58 engine. The inline 6 of the BMW M240 is a masterclass.