[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by kevinc

if such a thing actually exists, i can assure you it isn’t french.

🤣🤣🤣

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by KevinC

If such a thing actually exists, I can assure you it isn’t French.

It used to be the original Renault 5 womens shopping car but hardly any around now.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by kyriian

180 ft/lbs torque is the critical part here, for a supermini, meant for in-town use and zipping in and out of tight quarters, that is more than adequate for its built purpose.

And since when is being a driving enthusiast all about 600+horsepowers? When you can use barely 1/6th of it on the road without the red and blue chasing after you.

Since when do BMW enthusiasts care about adequate for built purpose?? The fact that M cars now account for over 10% of BMW sales should tell you all you need to know about BMW owners. Even a lot of non-M owners take their cars to the track. We want to drive something exciting.

And if you want a 2nd car for a grocery getter, or just a city commuter, a hybrid is still a better option than an EV as many people don't have a place to charge, and there's no range anxiety. They're also more reasonably priced.

[eugenebmw]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You make good points, and I've never understood why EV need sub 4-second 0 - 60 times to legitimize their existence. And even at the beginning. The idea of EV is to concerve energy and pollute less. All these super-fast EV are antithetical to the message and the environmental meme.

GM already made this EV. The Bolt siblings were rationally powered, rationally ranged, rationally sized, reasonably sculpted, and reasonably priced. Apparently they didn't sell in volume to be profitable. Ford says its Skunkworks EV is going to be smaller and affordable, I just have to question if it will sell. The Bolt(s) didn't. One deterrent of the Bolt was it recharged slowly at DCFC. Go on any EV forum and you'll find charging speed, and range of over 200 miles are immaterial to ownership. All EV owners say recharging overnight and waking up with a full battery is bliss, yet the owners all say they use the car daily well UNDER the range limits, so it's no big deal. So why didn't the Bolt sell?

I think most of the US market wants 400 miles with a DCFC recharge in 5 minutes. EV are never going to hit those metrics.

When I was in my twenty and thirty, lucky I never owned a car in sub 4 second 0 to 60 like today. Otherwise I may not here today and enjoying my life

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You make good points, and I've never understood why EV need sub 4-second 0 - 60 times to legitimize their existence. And even at the beginning. The idea of EV is to concerve energy and pollute less. All these super-fast EV are antithetical to the message and the environmental meme.

GM already made this EV. The Bolt siblings were rationally powered, rationally ranged, rationally sized, reasonably sculpted, and reasonably priced. Apparently they didn't sell in volume to be profitable. Ford says its Skunkworks EV is going to be smaller and affordable, I just have to question if it will sell. The Bolt(s) didn't. One deterrent of the Bolt was it recharged slowly at DCFC. Go on any EV forum and you'll find charging speed, and range of over 200 miles are immaterial to ownership. All EV owners say recharging overnight and waking up with a full battery is bliss, yet the owners all say they use the car daily well UNDER the range limits, so it's no big deal. So why didn't the Bolt sell?

I think most of the US market wants 400 miles with a DCFC recharge in 5 minutes. EV are never going to hit those metrics.

I think the main problem with EVs, especially the Bolt, was the weird looks. Automakers needed to get away from making EVs look futuristic, but in a bad way. The other issue with EVs was their complexity. There is absolutely no reason to make an EV complex, remove basic and common controls (I'm looking at you Elon Musk), and overly tech heavy. Most people don't want that. The styling needs to be more mainstream as well as the tech. The automakers seem to be coming around to this now.

The majority of the buying public doesn't want or need a car that does sub 6 second 0-60s. We all do, obviously, but most people are very content with a car/truck/SUV that does 0-60 in the mid 6s to upper 7s. Most current expensive EVs would certainly be lighter and more eco friendly if they didn't have AWD, two big and powerful motors, and a huge powerpack to feed the need for 500hp+. It's unnecessary and as you pointed out, goes against the whole point of an EV.

Imagine how many Civics Honda could sell if they made an EV Civic that looks like the current gen Civic and sold it for under $30K and had a range of 250-300 miles and a 0-60 of 8 seconds (just like the current standard Civic).

[TargaM2]

Like ALL Renaultsport products i expect the Alpine version to be impressive.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I think the main problem with EVs, especially the Bolt, was the weird looks. Automakers needed to get away from making EVs look futuristic, but in a bad way. The other issue with EVs was their complexity. There is absolutely no reason to make an EV complex, remove basic and common controls (I'm looking at you Elon Musk), and overly tech heavy. Most people don't want that. The styling needs to be more mainstream as well as the tech. The automakers seem to be coming around to this now.

The majority of the buying public doesn't want or need a car that does sub 6 second 0-60s. We all do, obviously, but most people are very content with a car/truck/SUV that does 0-60 in the mid 6s to upper 7s. Most current expensive EVs would certainly be lighter and more eco friendly if they didn't have AWD, two big and powerful motors, and a huge powerpack to feed the need for 500hp+. It's unnecessary and as you pointed out, goes against the whole point of an EV.

Imagine how many Civics Honda could sell if they made an EV Civic that looks like the current gen Civic and sold it for under $30K and had a range of 250-300 miles and a 0-60 of 8 seconds (just like the current standard Civic).

I didn't think the Bolt was that far off in design; I found it attractive enough. I looked at the original Bolt when I was considering an EV for my 170-mile daily round trip. The interior was ugly (materials mostly) and the drivers seat was not comfortable at all. I think LG and GM Korea had too much design influence; one thing GM does is make great seats. Those two things kept me from buying one, on top of the real winter range it would have. It left no room for extracurricular driving if I needed it.

But again, it was not expensive and had 200+ mile EPA rating. Maybe the battery fire recall killed it. But like in M5Rick's EV thread, real EV'ers insist battery fires are a non-issue. To your point, the Renault is making headway in normal-looking design. Maybe there is hope...

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

Since when do BMW enthusiasts care about adequate for built purpose?? The fact that M cars now account for over 10% of BMW sales should tell you all you need to know about BMW owners.

Does that number include SUVs?

[brianeck]

Originally Posted by RM7

Does that number include SUVs?

Yup. And m light cars 1.0 and 2.0. When you stick more m's on cars that are perfectly great but don't really deserve it, of course the % rate goes up. I love my g20 340i, and it's bm3 and zhp tuned, but it's still a 340. I came from an f80 6mt. . . I have no qualms about calling it what it is.

I did light up an f82 the other day, which was funny. . . But I have awd and snow tires and will still admit I'm in a baby m lite car all day.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

Since when do BMW enthusiasts care about adequate for built purpose?? The fact that M cars now account for over 10% of BMW sales should tell you all you need to know about BMW owners. Even a lot of non-M owners take their cars to the track. We want to drive something exciting..

Including SUVs and all other M-lite cars, I don't know of lapping days you go to... but not once have I seen a X5M, or only once have I seen a X3M tearing up a track day around here, the latter of which did about 3 laps before it pooped its coolant and had to be towed.

Might I also add, the i4 M50 is the best selling M model last year, sure its an M model, but not only is it an EV, but also it is a M-lite car
Source:here

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

And if you want a 2nd car for a grocery getter, or just a city commuter, a hybrid is still a better option than an EV as many people don't have a place to charge, and there's no range anxiety. They're also more reasonably priced.

No one ever said EV does not have its own challenges, range anxiety in the winter is real, and there is no argument that place to charge for a lot of people is a problem and will remain a problem for decades if not forever.

I looked hard for a used X3 and X5 PHEV for the wife for the past month or 2 to replace our F15 X5 before committing to our Polestar , But

- Sky high used car prices (up here, the PHEV version is easily 20k more than the ICE versions)
- High used car (and new car) rates, it feels like no one wants to move their inventory at all here.
- Lack of supply (that's more on Lexus, which said unless I pay an admin fee of 10k up front, I am not getting a RX450h+ until 2026)
- Of course, I still have to pay for gas as well on top of all that

Use case here is the key word here, the Renault 5 EV is for Europe use, and its customer has very very different needs than you.

If your use case justifies an ICE as the best way to spend your dough, then go for it, I ain't stopping you neither should anyone. Its why a variety of cars exist catering to even the most obscure needs.
Why does an EV, not even sold in your continent, bother you so much anyway...

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I didn't think the Bolt was that far off in design; I found it attractive enough. I looked at the original Bolt when I was considering an EV for my 170-mile daily round trip. The interior was ugly (materials mostly) and the drivers seat was not comfortable at all. I think LG and GM Korea had too much design influence; one thing GM does is make great seats. Those two things kept me from buying one, on top of the real winter range it would have. It left no room for extracurricular driving if I needed it.

But again, it was not expensive and had 200+ mile EPA rating. Maybe the battery fire recall killed it. But like in M5Rick's EV thread, real EV'ers insist battery fires are a non-issue. To your point, the Renault is making headway in normal-looking design. Maybe there is hope...

Agreed, it's hard to say that this is a weird looking vehicle. It looks like any modest hatchback.

I dunno why it failed. Maybe the people who want a Chevy and an EV and mutually exclusive groups. Maybe people thought buying a Tesla was more boogie. Maybe people thought the EPA range was too low? Nissan tried the inexpensive EV thing with the Lead, as did Mitsubishi with the iMiev and they both failed. Fiat 500e has flopped even though you can lease them for free. Perhaps there's more of a market for this in Europe than the US, but nobody has cracked the cheap EV code except Tesla.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Agreed, it's hard to say that this is a weird looking vehicle. It looks like any modest hatchback.

I dunno why it failed. Maybe the people who want a Chevy and an EV and mutually exclusive groups. Maybe people thought buying a Tesla was more boogie. Maybe people thought the EPA range was too low? Nissan tried the inexpensive EV thing with the Lead, as did Mitsubishi with the iMiev and they both failed. Fiat 500e has flopped even though you can lease them for free. Perhaps there's more of a market for this in Europe than the US, but nobody has cracked the cheap EV code except Tesla.

The Bolt was selling at an MSRP under $30K and was eligible for the max $7,500 tax rebate. The Model 3 started $10K north of that. I think you have made the point clear, the inexpensive smallish EV, even with 200+ mile range is still not beating ICEV in sales. I firmly believe it is the charging speed issue. People are used to recharging their ICEV in 5 minutes and recovering 350 to 400 miles of range. Leaving with a full battery every morning is nice to say, but is it that important? I really don't think it is to most people. It's not important because those people know they can refill their tank in 5 minutes nearly anywhere they are.

[Alfisti]

The single issue stopping an EV take over is charging. The range is fine, the cost/benefit will make more sense with scale but the charging, the charging is a monumental issue that is not going to be solved for decades, if at all.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by kyriian

Including SUVs and all other M-lite cars, I don't know of lapping days you go to... but not once have I seen a X5M, or only once have I seen a X3M tearing up a track day around here, the latter of which did about 3 laps before it pooped its coolant and had to be towed.

Might I also add, the i4 M50 is the best selling M model last year, sure its an M model, but not only is it an EV, but also it is a M-lite car
Source:here



No one ever said EV does not have its own challenges, range anxiety in the winter is real, and there is no argument that place to charge for a lot of people is a problem and will remain a problem for decades if not forever.

I looked hard for a used X3 and X5 PHEV for the wife for the past month or 2 to replace our F15 X5 before committing to our Polestar , But

- Sky high used car prices (up here, the PHEV version is easily 20k more than the ICE versions)
- High used car (and new car) rates, it feels like no one wants to move their inventory at all here.
- Lack of supply (that's more on Lexus, which said unless I pay an admin fee of 10k up front, I am not getting a RX450h+ until 2026)
- Of course, I still have to pay for gas as well on top of all that

Use case here is the key word here, the Renault 5 EV is for Europe use, and its customer has very very different needs than you.

If your use case justifies an ICE as the best way to spend your dough, then go for it, I ain't stopping you neither should anyone. Its why a variety of cars exist catering to even the most obscure needs.
Why does an EV, not even sold in your continent, bother you so much anyway...

Bother me??? I could care less about it as wasn't going to give it another thought. That's certainly one of the most bizarre posts ever.

Maybe you could benefit from this.
https://www.brightside.com/alt-homep...248d27a39b7b86

[DrFerry]

Duffy’s first act was signing a memorandum directing staff to start the process of resetting Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards, which will ultimately lower the price of a car for American consumers and eliminate the electric vehicle mandate.
https://highways.dot.gov/newsroom/se...mediate-action

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

Bother me??? I could care less about it as wasn't going to give it another thought. That's certainly one of the most bizarre posts ever.

Maybe you could benefit from this.
https://www.brightside.com/alt-homep...248d27a39b7b86

I don't think kyriian's post was even remotely meeting criteria for "one of the most bizarre posts ever". His was balanced and reasonable.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I have a Ice commuter - an EV would add nothing for me besides a higher cost and zero serviceability and longevity

EV does bring things to the table for a commuter. A few things that come to my mind at the moment:
no need to stop at the gas station because you fuel up at home or your destination. No more needing to stop for gas when you're already late for a meeting, because you charged up while you were sleeping. Proactive refueling vs reactive.

Zero serviceability isn't a detractor for EV's, the service needs are basically non-existent. Brakes go substantially longer because of regen. No oil changes, etc. Just rotate the tires and check fluids. Substantially less work here, or time to go to a shop if you're not doing your own maintenance.

Basically instant heating/cooling. No need to wait for an engine to come up to temp.

No issues with frequent short trips. ICE cars don't like the 1 mile trips that we frequently take living in a suburban area. EV doesn't care.

One pedal driving really does make driving in stop and go traffic a lot less of a pain.

Higher cost, I'd argue not, as long as you are open minded about the situation. EV's are currently selling at about the same price as their ICE counterparts. That said, keeping what you already have is always cheaper. So if your ICE commuter doesn't need to be replaced, don't replace it.


I still occasionally commute in one of our ICE vehicles and have a clear vision of the pros/cons of each system. EV is definitely a more convenient commuter. It comes with limits, but they're very easy to manage.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The Bolt was selling at an MSRP under $30K and was eligible for the max $7,500 tax rebate. The Model 3 started $10K north of that. I think you have made the point clear, the inexpensive smallish EV, even with 200+ mile range is still not beating ICEV in sales. I firmly believe it is the charging speed issue. People are used to recharging their ICEV in 5 minutes and recovering 350 to 400 miles of range. Leaving with a full battery every morning is nice to say, but is it that important? I really don't think it is to most people. It's not important because those people know they can refill their tank in 5 minutes nearly anywhere they are.

Honestly, I dunno man. On paper, this should have sold like crazy. It was cheap, decent looking, spacious enough, from a brand that you could get serviced wherever... It should have sold.

I don't think charging speed is the issue. Maybe it's that people think that 200 miles isn't enough?

Honestly, I think what it boils down to is that economy buyers for new cars basically don't exist anymore, and that EV buyers want inexpensive, but not cheap. They are Buick buyers for lack of a better term. They want it to be kinda upscale, but not really, and they want it at an affordable ish price.

Honestly, I have no idea. On paper, Bolt should have been a winner.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Honestly, I dunno man. On paper, this should have sold like crazy. It was cheap, decent looking, spacious enough, from a brand that you could get serviced wherever... It should have sold.

I don't think charging speed is the issue. Maybe it's that people think that 200 miles isn't enough?

Honestly, I think what it boils down to is that economy buyers for new cars basically don't exist anymore, and that EV buyers want inexpensive, but not cheap. They are Buick buyers for lack of a better term. They want it to be kinda upscale, but not really, and they want it at an affordable ish price.

Honestly, I have no idea. On paper, Bolt should have been a winner.

Isn't the average new car almost $50k now?

Also wouldn't the more price conscious buyer who doesn't care about 0-60 times or gadgets and gizmos also probably also be concerned with reliability? IMO the default for any of these buyers is Toyota or Honda and to some extent the other Japanese brands. I don't think a Chevy is at the top of most of these peoples list... let alone an EV which is new fancy stuff.

Are other Chevy none EV cars popular? Do they make any? I can't say I see too many malibus around.

That my theory, which was scientifically pulled from my butt.

[DocL]

I'm not an EV person, but my father just got a 2024 CPO Nissian ARIYA with 4,700 miles. It had an original sticker of $63k, and he paid $32k out the door including taxes and fees. I drove it home for him as he's older and doesn't take the highway. I am very impressed with it and it's loaded with every option and has the dual motor. It's fast enough for his needs for around town driving, mostly 10mi or less.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Isn't the average new car almost $50k now?

Also wouldn't the more price conscious buyer who doesn't care about 0-60 times or gadgets and gizmos also probably also be concerned with reliability? IMO the default for any of these buyers is Toyota or Honda and to some extent the other Japanese brands. I don't think a Chevy is at the top of most of these peoples list... let alone an EV which is new fancy stuff.

Are other Chevy none EV cars popular? Do they make any? I can't say I see too many malibus around.

That my theory, which was scientifically pulled from my butt.

As it turns out, Chevy only offers the Malibu for an ICE car. It's probably only a rental car honestly.

That said, they have equinox EV now for 34k, 300 miles of range, and an SUV from factor. That's probably the "holy Grail" for an affordable EV, other than being a bit pricey once you add AWD (like 40k, which gets you a Tesla).

It'll be interesting to see how equinox EV does. I'm sure it's gonna get discounts to bring the price down. But when you look at like, Blazer EV or Silverado EV, it's tough to see those selling at that much higher price points.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Honestly, I dunno man. On paper, this should have sold like crazy. It was cheap, decent looking, spacious enough, from a brand that you could get serviced wherever... It should have sold.

I don't think charging speed is the issue. Maybe it's that people think that 200 miles isn't enough?

Honestly, I have no idea. On paper, Bolt should have been a winner.

Our first EV commuter car was a Nissan Leaf. Bolt was a consideration, but I stayed away from it because of the mountain of battery issues. Recalls telling you not to park it in garages, etc... I went with the Leaf because it was a proven solution. Very few issues with the battery except for loss of capacity in hotter climates because of the air cooled battery vs water cooled.

We ditched the leaf at the end of the lease and picked up an Ioniq5. I despised having FWD with an electric car, too much wheel spin and related TC system interference. We also felt that the Leaf was just a tad small for our family of 4, the Ioniq is much more spacious. It also looks the part, love the styling of it. It's like a hot hatch, just scaled up 30% or so. It can handle more mileage than the leaf, but that doesn't really matter to me...

The range anxiety stuff is really only for people who are limited in places to charge. I can charge at work for free, or at home. Either you just keep it topped off every day, or you know your needs and charge it as needed. I charge twice a week while I'm at work. If we have a day where we need more mileage, we just make sure it's topped up. It's just like filling up the tank the day before you go on a road trip, just requires a minor amount of forethought. I also don't use our EV for anything but regional commuting. I do not take it outside of its range, I have ICE for that purpose.