[dfox]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'll state again... comparing Toyota's most popular-selling sedan to Tesla's most popular-selling sedan. They are in the same EPA class size and just 3 cubic feet apart from one another in passenger/luggage volume. I didn't bring the Corolla into the discussion, Alfisti did. You can think the Model 3 is a 3-Series competitor because when it first came out it was in the price range of a 3-Series, but it didn't offer the refinement of the 3-series. It's still near the price of a 3-series before tax incentives, but I still don't think it has the refinement of a 3-series.

I used $3.29 for gas. Avg. today is $3.12 (which makes the case better for the Camry). It appears electrons on the public networks is around $0.45 to $0.55 kW, which makes fueling an EV on the public system about equal in cost to gasoline on a per-mile cost basis.

Compare the BMW's I listed above. No arguing about whether or not they're competitors. Although the performance is going to be different with the i4 outperforming. Make sure you're actually looking at MPG and mi/kwh figures.

Gas here is 4.60ish per gallon for regular, but premium is probably a better comparison given the power output of EVs. I pay 10.263 cents per kwh.

[dfox]

It's a comparison that actually is apples to apples, IE it actually means something.

430i - 31 mpg
i4 3.6 mi/kwh

At my price, 10K miles/year, EV saves about $1,200 in fuel alone, assuming we ignore regular maintenance items such as oil changes. Fuel savings alone pay for themselves in less than 3 years.
430i - 1483.87 in gas
i4 - 285 in electricity

Start to consider the additional costs of oil changes, trans/diff fluid changes, and just the general maintenance that an ICE requires that an EV just doesn't, and the numbers just keep adding up. And what we're not quantifying in here is also time, something that I take seriously. My time is worth money. The time to do an oil change, or take to a shop. Time to stand around at a gas station a few times a week...


Look, I drive both. my commuter is an EV. My fun car and road trip car are both ICE. They both have their strong points, but ya'll ev haters are just missing the mark with your hate. No, they don't work for everyone, but I'd bet that they'd work just fine for the vast majority of people on this forum as a commuter.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

That's for you at $4.60/gal. and charging at home. My discussion was using a much lower price for fuel for a the average customer in the US auto market who will only use the public network to charge his EV. So your point is not apples to apples as a counter to what I am discussing. In my rough calculation I didn't even include the cost of electrons for the Tesla on the Tesla network, which I think is around $0.22 per kW.

That's exactly the point I'm making. You cannot make a blanket statement with averages across the entire country to say that EV doesn't make sense. EV's work for some people, in some locations. They don't work for some people, in other locations. It's all relative. Speaking in absolutes across the entire country is pointless. Hence why we currently allow states a say in the matter. These issues are localized, not generalized across the country.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

You would need to define luxury in this case. If by luxury you just mean physical stuff, like trims, buttons, panels etc then yes. If by luxury you mean the quality of the materials that are there and actual features (heated seats, cooled, cameras etc) then I think the Model 3 is on par with a 3 series or C class easily. Especially the new Model 3.

It is not lol.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

It is not lol.

How would you know? Don’t you explode if you get to close to an EV??

[Alfisti]

Some size as a Camry?? Really? I've been in both and the Camry feels MUCH larger, like 5 series size not 3 series.

I'm also not sold the 3 goes up against a 3 series or C class, the refinement isn't there. This is tricky, if you go down a notch the ICE lack power.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Some size as a Camry?? Really? I've been in both and the Camry feels MUCH larger, like 5 series size not 3 series.

I'm also not sold the 3 goes up against a 3 series or C class, the refinement isn't there. This is tricky, if you go down a notch the ICE lack power.

You all keep talking about more luxury and more refined but no one has been able to define that.

It’s like saying a modern minimalist designed house is less luxurious than a super guady home decked out with gold toilets and ornate hardware etc.

I don’t follow BMWs much anymore, but I’m pretty sure the quality of materials in a base 3 series is no better than what’s in a model 3. Hell the materials in my Cayenne were no better than a 3 series or model 3 except maybe real leather… even that was meh.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by dfox

That's exactly the point I'm making. You cannot make a blanket statement with averages across the entire country to say that EV doesn't make sense. EV's work for some people, in some locations. They don't work for some people, in other locations. It's all relative. Speaking in absolutes across the entire country is pointless. Hence why we currently allow states a say in the matter. These issues are localized, not generalized across the country.

It is no use trying to talk sense to people who have no clue becuse they have no real world experience with EV's....or what it is like to spend $80 every time you fill up on gas like the millions of drivers do daily ... Those people just don't get it and never will

Comparing Tesla's to Camry's is also silly...My Model 3 is warmed up with a touch of a button on my phone and is nice a comfy by the time you get to your car on a cold winter night or cooled down for you on a hot summer day..and no, remote start is not the same thing...it will also come pick me up if I'm feeling lazy.....No Camry, nor pretty much every ICE V, does any thing close to any of those things and is slow AF.... not too mention it doesnt need oil changes or brake pads or starters or water pumps or alternators or any of all the 100's of parts that can go bad on an ICE vehicle...wake up every morning with a full tank without ever having to visit a gas station for pennies on the dollar....

Yeah, I can see why people who don't have EV's hate EV's

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

It's no use to try and explain to EV'ers who home charge that not everyone owns a home with a garage or driveway that has easy access to the home's electrical infrastructure. It's hard to explain that millions of houses have only on-street parking and can't charge at home. It's tough to explain to EV'ers that millions of people live in apartments and can't charge at home.

It's hard because everyone here already knows that. I have not seen a single pro EV person here claim everyone should buy an EV including people who live in an apartment or people who need to save as much money as possible and drive the most economical vehicle etc. Not everyone can afford a BMW, not everyone wants the impracticality of a 2-seater sports car, not everyone has a need for an F350, not everyone wants to drive a manual... doesn't make those vehicles inherently bad.

No one here is making the argument that everyone should have an EV for everything. You refuse to understand that though.

[mjr24]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

It's no use to try and explain to EV'ers who home charge that not everyone owns a home with a garage or driveway that has easy access to the home's electrical infrastructure. It's hard to explain that millions of houses have only on-street parking and can't charge at home. It's tough to explain to EV'ers that millions of people live in apartments and can't charge at home.

It’s literally just about pointless to have an EV unless you can home charge. I am smack dab in the middle of 2 major cities (40 minutes from each) and the closest fast chargers are still 25 miles each way.

I had to basically make due and drive to one of these locations every 2 days or so before my home charger was put in a month after I got my i7. It was a major PIA.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

l. not too mention it doesnt need oil changes or brake pads or starters or water pumps or alternators or any of all the 100's of parts that can go bad on an ICE vehicle

EVs have a ton of maintenance too. They eat tires like 3-4x faster than a typical ICE car. They tear up suspension components. They still have HVAC systems to go bad. They still have cooling systems to go bad. Some of them that aren't fisher price cars still have differentials that need upkeep. They still have brake pads and rotors that need replaced. They still have ball joints and bushings that go bad.

If your state has taxes your fuel to the point that has is uneconomical, that's once thing, but reality is there are more places where it is not more economical than places where it is.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

You all keep talking about more luxury and more refined but no one has been able to define that.

It’s like saying a modern minimalist designed house is less luxurious than a super guady home decked out with gold toilets and ornate hardware etc.

I don’t follow BMWs much anymore, but I’m pretty sure the quality of materials in a base 3 series is no better than what’s in a model 3. Hell the materials in my Cayenne were no better than a 3 series or model 3 except maybe real leather… even that was meh.

There's definitely a difference, the model 3 feels chintzy, cheap thin interior materials and a brutal ride. It feels more like a domestic with tacked on luxury than built from scratch luxury. Think..... modern Buick.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

There's definitely a difference, the model 3 feels chintzy, cheap thin interior materials and a brutal ride. It feels more like a domestic with tacked on luxury than built from scratch luxury. Think..... modern Buick.

Hey now, that's unfair. Modern domestics feel WAY nicer than Teslas. Teslas feel like early 00s Korean cars. At best.

All this talk of EVs, I will admit, if Ford made the Lightning just a legitimate F150 powertrain, and I could get it as a 2025 F,150 inside and out that just happened to have the EV powertrain, I'd buy one. But as it stands, it looks 2 generations old, the stupid vertical screen is way worse than the regular truck interior, and so I can't justify it.

For their part, Ford is listening... To a bunch of dufuses that think it isn't working because it's not EV enough. They're making a ground up EV truck like all the others that aren't selling. So we have that failure to look forward to..

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

EVs have a ton of maintenance too. They eat tires like 3-4x faster than a typical ICE car. They tear up suspension components. They still have HVAC systems to go bad. They still have cooling systems to go bad. Some of them that aren't fisher price cars still have differentials that need upkeep. They still have brake pads and rotors that need replaced. They still have ball joints and bushings that go bad.

If your state has taxes your fuel to the point that has is uneconomical, that's once thing, but reality is there are more places where it is not more economical than places where it is.

do you own one and have real experience with this or just watch youtube videos?


They don't eat tires 3-4x faster than ICE cars...that's a ridiculous myth made up by youtuber who probably slammed his Plaid with no camber adjustments and does 0-60 in 2 seconds at every light...

I have a M3P and got well over 25k on my rears before changing them, same as any BMW I ever owned with performance tires....50,000 miles and have zero issues with any of those issues you mentioned and since it has re-gen braking system, pads and rotors are good for over 100K miles

Sure some things can go bad, but it is a fraction of the parts that can wrong on any ICE vehicle...

Like i said 100 times already...They aren't for everybody, but for those that they make sense to, they are great...

Doesn't mean I don't like ICE vehicles ....still love my ICE cars too...

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Nope, I'm just trying to explain why the majority of the market is not going to buy an EV and why they yet haven't.

And my discussion is not about vehicle type (i.e. configuration), but rather the type of propulsion technology.

a majority of the market live in places like California(more cars in California than 20+ mid-America states combined) and is probably why the Tesla 3 and Y are some of the best selling cars in the last several years.

Once the range starts to break the 500 mile range EV's will most likely be the best selling cars in the country....they are getting closer every year to that.

BUT, that doesn't mean they should be the only choice in the future

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

do you own one and have real experience with this or just watch youtube videos?


They don't eat tires 3-4x faster than ICE cars...that's a ridiculous myth made up by youtuber who probably slammed his Plaid with no camber adjustments and does 0-60 in 2 seconds at every light...

I have a M3P and got well over 25k on my rears before changing them, same as any BMW I ever owned with performance tires....50,000 miles and have zero issues with any of those issues you mentioned and since it has re-gen braking system, pads and rotors are good for over 100K miles

Sure some things can go bad, but it is a fraction of the parts that can wrong on any ICE vehicle...

Like i said 100 times already...They aren't for everybody, but for those that they make sense to, they are great...

Doesn't mean I don't like ICE vehicles ....still love my ICE cars too...

25k miles is still 3ish times quicker use than most passenger cars. It's not uncommon to see a tire with a 70k mile warranty.

The only things that an ICE has that a EV doesn't is an ICE, the gas delivery system,, an alternator, and (sometimes) a transmission. But instead they have a big ass battery pack, charge controllers, battery management systems, electric motors, electric motor controllers... A crapload of electronics basically. And you know what goes out in modern cars? Electronics.

And no, I don't own a Tesla, I have friends with them. They're cheap garbage inside. You don't have to own one to tell that. If you have a huge commute, they make sense. One of my friends with one commutes from Orlando daily, about 70-80 miles each way, when you're nearing 200 miles daily it makes sense financially to drive an EV even here in the land of 2.70ish gas. The resale goes out the window too because almost anything that's getting 40-50k miles a year will be effectively worthless after 4 or 5 years.

Personally, I couldn't commute for that long. 30 minutes each way is my limit. I have young kids though, so that time is precious.

[mjr24]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Out of curiosity, how much did it cost to install the charger at your home?

I got a free wall charger from BMW and then it was $1200 to install it and run the wiring about 50 feet with a new breaker. Most places quoted me over double that amount….

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

a majority of the market live in places like California(more cars in California than 20+ mid-America states combined) and is probably why the Tesla 3 and Y are some of the best selling cars in the last several years.

Once the range starts to break the 500 mile range EV's will most likely be the best selling cars in the country....they are getting closer every year to that.

BUT, that doesn't mean they should be the only choice in the future

California is still the largest population state, but Florida and Texas are rapidly catching up. It's non-sensical, egotistical, and out of touch to assume that California represents the car market as a whole.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

How would you know? Don’t you explode if you get to close to an EV??

Possibly, I try to avoid getting cancer so I tend to steer clear. But yeah, teslas are as luxury as McDonalds is to a steakhouse. Both serve…”food” and both have “beef” but Im sure you understand why those words are in quotes.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

It's no use to try and explain to EV'ers who home charge that not everyone owns a home with a garage or driveway that has easy access to the home's electrical infrastructure. It's hard to explain that millions of houses have only on-street parking and can't charge at home. It's tough to explain to EV'ers that millions of people live in apartments and can't charge at home.

He has a user handle named after A VWAG product (and a terrible one at that) and lives in Cali. You can safely ignore everything he says.

[rs3drift]

tesla cant be beat tbh all the rest are inferior

[x622]

Originally Posted by rs3drift

tesla cant be beat tbh all the rest are inferior

on god no cap frfr, shii mad bussin'. all these betas trying to flex their polluting ahh cars feel me?



Wait is this the EV thread? I thought it was deleted.