[Pentium]

it maybe a good move to the market but now M badge will be everywhere...>>>> just like AMG.....

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by kmarei

but at some point
your cars are no longer exclusive
so all the people who want to drive BMW to show off in front of their friends will move on
so ultimately if all you care about is sales
at one point you will have sold out too much and your sales will start to drop
look at what porsche/ferrari do
they always try to keep their cars exclusive

I can only speak for myself but I didn't buy a BMW for exclusivity/status symbol; I bought it because of the performance and style. It doesn't bother me if others are driving the same car. Most people who aren't car enthusiasts wouldn't be able to tell you the difference between a 320d and a M3. Car enthusiasts, on other hand, still know the reputation behind the M cars, even with the new M Performance line. I don't understand what's exactly being lost here.

Besides, I can't barely comprehend the thought that owners of M3's/M5's/etc only bought it to show it off to their friends. If that's the case, they should move on to the likes of Porsche or Ferrari.

[Tobbep]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

I can only speak for myself but I didn't buy a BMW for exclusivity/status symbol; I bought it because of the performance and style. It doesn't bother me if others are driving the same car. Most people who aren't car enthusiasts wouldn't be able to tell you the difference between a 320d and a M3. Car enthusiasts, on other hand, still know the reputation behind the M cars, even with the new M Performance line. I don't understand what's exactly being lost here.

Besides, I can't barely comprehend the thought that owners of M3's/M5's/etc only bought it to show it off to their friends. If that's the case, they should move on to the likes of Porsche or Ferrari.

I think you are misunderstanding what some of us are saying. This has nothing to do with showing off. I could care less what other people think. This has to do with keeping the heritage of the M models intact. It has to do with what the M stands for. These cars should not be diluted for the sake of selling more cars. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand.

The M cars are supposed to be in their own class. If it is not an M car don't put an M badge on it. If people want an M car buy one.

[farbarg]

The video, the dialogue, the message: lame, lame, lame.

[SCOTT26]

Think of the BMW M Performance Line as BMW M equipping their equivalent models with the technology and powertrains they refuse to and do not want to give the regular M sedans.

For example Diesel Power and All Wheel Drive. These Are two options requested by customers. Two options BMW M have ruled out for their core models (SAV/SAC not included).
There are customers who would like this on a regular M but they also want lighter weight. Unfortunately you cannot have both.

One thing that is being discussed and not yet final is that M Performance could be applied to the BMW City Car in FWD concept.
Which will give BMW a tailor-made option against relevant Audi A1's,
Instead of going the full M route. Just like the MINI and every other small car that likes to interpret the MINI - The BMW will be able to be customised and personalised to your liking and that will include Performance options and accessories.

[fatpanda]

this will just create more M3 vs M3XX thtreads... but this time they both the same since both will b turbocharged, which means the M3 will have less differentiation 2 argue over anymore, then in the end might as well just buy the cheaper car & mod it up since the M badge isnt as significant anymore.

[V2RBY]

Here in the UK, 8 out of every 10 3 series BMWs I see on the road have the M-Sport package, and more like 19 out of 20 for the coupe.
When I purchased my (msport) 335i coupe the dealer said they only ever sold autos. Speaking only from my own experience and perception, it seems the market for BMW's and the sporty 3 series coupes consistes of people who love the brand for the M cars but can't/don't want to afford them, so they go for the sporty appearence but inlude all the creature comforts (satnav etc.). I couldn't afford the M3 but I do still laugh when I see badgeless 3 series M Sport coupes that have the tailpipe that shows them to be a 318/320.
Basically thius all tells me that BMW is using it's M brand reputation to extend it's reach to all areas of the market and this market is predominantly about people who aspire for an M but will pay for something cheaper that resembles an M. Like it or not it is a multi billion $ company that is going to use everything it has to expand sales and profits. Whether that's ultimately a good thing I don't really know. I guess I'd rather have a company that has umpteen number of models that included the more driver orientated ones I wanted even if the whole brand is a little diluted rather than a niche hard core player with cars that are way out of my price range (say Aston martin) or one that struggles through financial shocks (eg TVR).

Originally Posted by m630

I 100% agree with you, Im in the same camp, but Ive accepted that we cannot do anything about it. Im a life long enthusiast in BMW and M and cannot believe the direction they've taken with the engines, which is the true heart of the M. I will spite myself by not getting the new breed of M because I dont agree with FI on an M car from a traditional, historical point of view, and after 30+ years of defending NA, Im not going to back down and go for the FI versions now being contemplated and offered.
However, I could care less about the body packaging, that is all about poseurs and posing and I'll stand by that 100%. A car can look exactly like my M6 and have letters and aero kits to make one look like my M6, but its not an M6 and I know it, and thats all that really matters and should matter. If its not an M6, it doenst drive like an M6 and doesnt have the feel of the M6 and that doesnt affect me at all.

I hear you on the slaps, but again, thats an American thing more than anyting, in Europe and the rest of the world, they have always had M packages and M emblems all over their cars, even their smallest and entry level offerings, but it was BMW NA, because of enthusiast pressure in the past that caused them to sometimes not offer the Msport packs here in the states. M is BMW, I cant stress that enough, if not for BMW, there is no M, its a performance subdivision and design house, and in the world today where tuning and body kits are so lucritive as a market(just see SEMA) it makes all the sense in the world for BMW to do it themselves and keep the revenue in house.

BMW is a different company today than even 10 years ago, its a giant, and its growing, so many philosophies have changed as their focus has changed to be a global player of luxury performance cars, while in the past they were more of a performance car company with luxury added to fill a niche market.

We all have to make our own decisions as to whether this really bothers one so much that they will no longer support the brand, but at the end of the day, id still rather be driving a BMW, even if they're all called Ms..

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by Tobbep

I think you are misunderstanding what some of us are saying. This has nothing to do with showing off. I could care less what other people think. This has to do with keeping the heritage of the M models intact. It has to do with what the M stands for. These cars should not be diluted for the sake of selling more cars. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand.

The M cars are supposed to be in their own class. If it is not an M car don't put an M badge on it. If people want an M car buy one.

Think about what you're saying. You're saying that BMW cannot use the reputation of its own 'M' products to sell more cars even though they're in the business of selling cars. It is as if the M is off limits, even to BMW! That doesn't make much business sense.

There's nothing to indicate that the 'M' will be diluted as we haven't even seen the next generation 'M' cars. I bet that the next-generation M cars will be lighter, meaner, more extreme. In fact, I've seen a lot of complaints on recent 'M' cars that they're way too heavy, technology-laden, and robotic; lacking the driver/car connection of previous M's (see M5). By creating the M-Performance line, BMW now has room to truly make the 'M' cars more like its revered predecessors.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Fellfromdsky

Nice, that X6 looks like a beast.

A rocket powered elephant comes to my mind.

[Danconia]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Think of the BMW M Performance Line as BMW M equipping their equivalent models with the technology and powertrains they refuse to and do not want to give the regular M sedans.

For example Diesel Power and All Wheel Drive. These Are two options requested by customers. Two options BMW M have ruled out for their core models (SAV/SAC not included).
There are customers who would like this on a regular M but they also want lighter weight. Unfortunately you cannot have both.

One thing that is being discussed and not yet final is that M Performance could be applied to the BMW City Car in FWD concept.
Which will give BMW a tailor-made option against relevant Audi A1's,
Instead of going the full M route. Just like the MINI and every other small car that likes to interpret the MINI - The BMW will be able to be customised and personalised to your liking and that will include Performance options and accessories.

This will all make much more sense if M were to solely devote this line to non-traditional M options such as AWD and diesel only.

Still kind of a sneaky way for BMW M to get away with making AWD sedans and diesels and still be able to say we remain true to our core values. But yes, lots of money to be made by this move.

I still say the divisions need some further differentiation than M vs M performance automobiles. The latter sounds like the more sporting option. There had to be a great debate in BMW about this nomenclature.

How about MX or MD but not solely M335i or M550.

[rmani]

Originally Posted by Pentium

it maybe a good move to the market but now M badge will be everywhere...>>>> just like AMG.....

BMW already ruined the M brand. M3, M5 was ideal.

Ok M6 isn't bad either

[3XTR3M3]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Think of the BMW M Performance Line as BMW M equipping their equivalent models with the technology and powertrains they refuse to and do not want to give the regular M sedans.

For example Diesel Power and All Wheel Drive. These Are two options requested by customers. Two options BMW M have ruled out for their core models (SAV/SAC not included).
There are customers who would like this on a regular M but they also want lighter weight. Unfortunately you cannot have both.

One thing that is being discussed and not yet final is that M Performance could be applied to the BMW City Car in FWD concept.
Which will give BMW a tailor-made option against relevant Audi A1's,
Instead of going the full M route. Just like the MINI and every other small car that likes to interpret the MINI - The BMW will be able to be customised and personalised to your liking and that will include Performance options and accessories.

All this makes sense and I want BMW to make a lot of money. With that said, pick a different letter Scott. Pick a different name.

M has history and core meaning. If you are going to make a lessor 3-series than an M3 and call it an M, well... wtf.

[Mdrei]

BMW has become less of an engineering driven company and more of a profit generating machine looking after the shareholders interests. This is normal as the company is maturing and the is trying to cover all market segments.

The M brand started as a line for the enthusiasts and weekend racers. M never needed marketing, it's marketing was the success on the track and the praise of those who owned one. Over the years this created solid fact driven roots; the products sold themselves.

However, the solid M brand image, which in reality was the hardcore engineer image, could not bring in enough revenue. Real customers (ie: non enthusiast, non petrol heads) adored the cars but it was in the category of "nice to have", they were not willing to compromise on comfort, price, maintenance costs, etc. So what does BMW do? Enter the M Sport Pack. Now people could get the M stickers and some performance for fraction of the cost.

But wait, as the other vendors watered down AMG and the S line, more people were flocking to the "middle class" exclusivity that the M brand still carried. The M brand finally started to bring in serious sales.

So the bean counters took to the next level. Slap some stiffer springs, a body kit and plaster M on every outside panel and charge a hefty margin. Welcome to M Performance (aka M badges). With the entry of BMW in DTM they need this marketing image. However few realize the M Performance, does not stand for Motorsport Performance but for Marketing Performance.

M is no longer the BMW premium performance, IT'S A BADGE. This strategy will pay big $ for BMW, but it will leave the enthusiasts betrayed, as they are the ones that made M what it is today. The M cars are dead, welcome the M badges.

BMW knows all this, but the conversion from M-cars to M-badges will bring revenue and hence keep the shareholders happy. As a M fanatic who always enjoyed giving a 911 a run for it's money, I am sad, since my M garage will stop growing. The ride was fun, the memories remain. Welcome 991 S, one of the few engineers cars left who does not need "active sound".

In memoriam to M for Motorsport.
.Mdrei

[BMW269]

BMW you f***ed up everything. Isay said it 5 years ago you had to restructure all you line-up in this way.

B1, B2, B3, B4, B5, B6, B7, B8
X1, X3, X4, X5, X6
Z2, Z4, Z8
M1, M3, M5
i3, i5, i8

"B" should be instead of "Series". All cars you today will call for example M135i, should have been called Tii, so B1 Tii, and all true M versions, like M3 should have been called B3 M. Then the three ture M cars will just be called as they always were and contrary to all other M models, keep naturally aspirted engines in CF chassis and be exotics.

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by fatpanda

this will just create more M3 vs M3XX thtreads... but this time they both the same since both will b turbocharged, which means the M3 will have less differentiation 2 argue over anymore, then in the end might as well just buy the cheaper car & mod it up since the M badge isnt as significant anymore.

+1000
so after all the whoring out of the M badge
I am expected to pay a hefty premium over the 340i or m440i or whatever the heck they call it?
When in essence they have more parts in common than they do now?
I heard the current M3 shares only 30% of it's parts with the regular 3 series
So I can understand the difference in price
But if we end up with the majority of parts in common
Why am I paying so much?
I might as well get the M340i and call it a day

[baylor1er]

Originally Posted by e92_m3

It's basically a 135i acquiring the N55 engine from the 335is, so IMHO 135is sounds better.

Apparently you don't realize but the 135i already hass the N55 motor in it. From 08 to 2010 it had the N54 motor. They are basicly giving it a milder tune than the Z4 35i sDrive, which is basiclly what is found on the 1M. My big issue is why put it on the 4-door hatchback instead of putting it on the coupe.

[michaelthepsycho]

The reason this is happening is because people are buying the M badge up like crack. If it makes financial sense, BMW will do it. They couldn't give two shits about us as long as we're not the majority. For every one of you who think it's an atrocity to put a M badge on regular cars, there are 100 willing to buy it. Blame the ignorant.

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by Mdrei

BMW has become less of an engineering driven company and more of a profit generating machine looking after the shareholders interests. This is normal as the company is maturing and the is trying to cover all market segments.

The M brand started as a line for the enthusiasts and weekend racers. M never needed marketing, it's marketing was the success on the track and the praise of those who owned one. Over the years this created solid fact driven roots; the products sold themselves.

However, the solid M brand image, which in reality was the hardcore engineer image, could not bring in enough revenue. Real customers (ie: non enthusiast, non petrol heads) adored the cars but it was in the category of "nice to have", they were not willing to compromise on comfort, price, maintenance costs, etc. So what does BMW do? Enter the M Sport Pack. Now people could get the M stickers and some performance for fraction of the cost.

Why is this a bad thing? If it was called "N Sport Pack", would that make any difference?

Originally Posted by Mdrei

But wait, as the other vendors watered down AMG and the S line, more people were flocking to the "middle class" exclusivity that the M brand still carried. The M brand finally started to bring in serious sales.

So the bean counters took to the next level. Slap some stiffer springs, a body kit and plaster M on every outside panel and charge a hefty margin. Welcome to M Performance (aka M badges). With the entry of BMW in DTM they need this marketing image. However few realize the M Performance, does not stand for Motorsport Performance but for Marketing Performance.

M is no longer the BMW premium performance, IT'S A BADGE. This strategy will pay big $ for BMW, but it will leave the enthusiasts betrayed, as they are the ones that made M what it is today. The M cars are dead, welcome the M badges.

I highlighted the above comment because I have to ask. How do you know this to be true? No one has seen (to my knowledge) any of the next-gen M cars, but assumptions have been made that it won't have the same pedigree of performance. I don't understand.

Originally Posted by Mdrei

BMW knows all this, but the conversion from M-cars to M-badges will bring revenue and hence keep the shareholders happy. As a M fanatic who always enjoyed giving a 911 a run for it's money, I am sad, since my M garage will stop growing. The ride was fun, the memories remain. Welcome 991 S, one of the few engineers cars left who does not need "active sound".

In memoriam to M for Motorsport.
.Mdrei

So the alternative is for BMW to remain true to its heritage even if it leads to bankruptcy (?) Are they to remain a niche company readily available to do our bidding?

[nez]

Should be given the 'L' class definition. Not quite 'M'.

Jokes aside, I would worry about it too much , BMW will change the branding again later down the track. Like they always do.

[crypticc]

Originally Posted by bmwm3redblack

I feel sorry for the bmw nowadays.
///M was an exclusive letter, and if every bmw wear an m-badge,it's no more exclusive. Unless bmw will build new m3 for hardcore fans and make it more raw and exclusive,but personally me i don't think so.
I know it rise sales,but one day many of us won't buy a car that you can meet all over the place,(driving by your Granny,girlfriend etc) Even if it would be very good,cause we buy M's not only because it's such a good,sports car but it's smth special!!!
I hope bmw will do smth with this. If not it's time to try Porsche.

I think it's to try and make M when not fitted to a true M to mean something. Oh and allows them to detune the lower models to meet emissions targets and then charge more for the product we should've always had. (most model years mean more power and economy, this could be the first time power doesn't increase unless you pay for it)

[Mdrei]

Originally Posted by Bunkei

Why is this a bad thing? If it was called "N Sport Pack", would that make any difference?

It's not, just pointing out the evolution of it.

Originally Posted by Bunkei

I highlighted the above comment because I have to ask. How do you know this to be true? No one has seen (to my knowledge) any of the next-gen M cars, but assumptions have been made that it won't have the same pedigree of performance. I don't understand.

I am not looking into the future but into the past. Look at the history of the e9x M3, where was the CSL model? Instead of improving the core part "performance", they instead delivered the CRT which was pure marketing (carbon fiber + navi + high end sound).

The e46 M3 had the CSL and the ZCP, which were true performance enhancements addressed to the gear heads.
On the Nurburgring, the e46 CSL was a full 12s faster than the e92 M3 and only 2 secs slower than the mighty e92 GTS. What a shame!

Where was the racing success? The GTS, GT2 and GT4 where all flops compared to the previous generation M3s. The GT2 had 2-3 wins, but they were nowhere in the front rows or even present at the most competitions.

On the opposite, the e46 M3 V8 GTR had to be outlawed, since it was wiping the floor with the Porsches.

Don't get me started on the x5/6M.
So, based on past products I can say that M Motorsport morphed into Marketing Performance. Which is fine also.

Originally Posted by Bunkei

So the alternative is for BMW to remain true to its heritage even if it leads to bankruptcy (?) Are they to remain a niche company readily available to do our bidding?

You can maintain heritage and still not go bankrupt or be niche. Look at Porsche's biz model, the Porsche brand is extending with all kind of new models. However, the 911 is still the 911 (and it is not a cash cow).

The art of M was to take a potent regular model and turn it into a terrifying track/street machine with the comfort of day-to-day driving and practicality.

BMW decided to cash in on the M brand and destroy the little heritage it had. It followed the AMG and S model. Yeah, they might spit out a real M car (instead of a badge) once in a while, just like the Black Series from MB, but show me the price tag on that.

BTW, I am criticizing BMW because they picked the easy road to better financial results, all while destroying the racing heritage and what M stands for.
Whenever they get the M3 to catch a Porsche in the twistiest, than I will look at it again.

.Mdrei

[Bunkei]

Originally Posted by Mdrei

It's not, just pointing out the evolution of it.


I am not looking into the future but into the past. Look at the history of the e9x M3, where was the CSL model? Instead of improving the core part "performance", they instead delivered the CRT which was pure marketing (carbon fiber + navi + high end sound).

The e46 M3 had the CSL and the ZCP, which were true performance enhancements addressed to the gear heads.
On the Nurburgring, the e46 CSL was a full 12s faster than the e92 M3 and only 2 secs slower than the mighty e92 GTS. What a shame!

But as it was mentioned earlier in the thread, now that there's a M-Performance Line, BMW can now return to its heritage with the M-cars, instead of trying to please everyone. Instead of loading them up with technogadgets and such, they can leave those to the M-Performance Line and focus exclusively on performance. Perhaps the next generation M3 will return to its raw visceral lightweight heritage that it was once renown for.

Originally Posted by Mdrei

You can maintain heritage and still not go bankrupt or be niche. Look at Porsche's biz model, the Porsche brand is extending with all kind of new models. However, the 911 is still the 911 (and it is not a cash cow).

The art of M was to take a potent regular model and turn it into a terrifying track/street machine with the comfort of day-to-day driving and practicality.

BMW decided to cash in on the M brand and destroy the little heritage it had. It followed the AMG and S model. Yeah, they might spit out a real M car (instead of a badge) once in a while, just like the Black Series from MB, but show me the price tag on that.

I wouldn't use Porsche as a comparison model because I'm willing to bet the farm that BMW has way more overhead than Porsche (# of facilities, employees, etc), not to mention that it would have significantly lower margins on their cars given Porsche's stratospheric pricing. But even Porsche has been accused of the destroying their heritage with the Cayenne and Panorama!

You have a point about the price tag; I'm sure that the price of M models will go up, but that would happen regardless :/

Originally Posted by Mdrei

BTW, I am criticizing BMW because they picked the easy road to better financial results, all while destroying the racing heritage and what M stands for.
Whenever they get the M3 to catch a Porsche in the twistiest, than I will look at it again.
.Mdrei

We have to understand that BMW is a business first. A great heritage means very little if the company who created it goes out of business. We'll see if you're right about the pricing for the next-generation M cars, although it is worth mentioning that the new M5 is cheaper than its predecessor from what I remember.