[Mvy]

Hey all,
What do you think about the new Supra? As some may know, its been a co project with BMW. The official numbers are this: a 3.0-liter turbo inline-six, 335 horsepower, 365 lb-ft of torque, zero to 60 mph in 4.1 seconds and a curb weight of 3,397 pounds. Built in Austria by Magna Styer, the cars will have vins staring with W like our Ms. An inline BMW motor will power the beast. Sounds like its going to be a great car. Im looking forward to seeing one in person.

[Shiza]

Interesting

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sho...ts-functional/

[Dogeeseegod]

Priced similarly to a Tesla performance... GOOD LUCK!

[Soterios]

Originally Posted by desertman123

Rant inbound:

Why is everyone on social media screaming to put a 2JZ in the car?

Stock for stock, that motor makes less power than the B58.
It's also way heavier. Iron block vs aluminum.
Wiring would be a nightmare.

So what do you gain? The privilege of spending even more money to make it have more power than the B58? Clout? Being able to sleep tight knowing your Supra has a 2JZ?

Ehhhhhhhh.... I'll bite.

The 2JZ is a stronger motor. I think it's hard to argue. It's not hard to see four digit power on a stock longblock. You can expect 400whp on stock twins, but if you're doing a swap, you're likely going single turbo anyways. It's also way more aftermarket friendly (and cheaper to modify) because it's been around a lot longer. A friend of mine that owns a performance shop has but 1jzs and 2jzs in just about everything you could imagine. (inlcuding a couple of BRZ/GT86/FRS) They're just plentiful motors and it's easy to make reliable power with them.

The B58 is nice, but it's not a JZ.

All that said, I think it's just a meme. No one besides some speed shops and some youtube channels will actually go buy a $60,000 car and immediatly throw a twenty year old motor in it for $15,000.

If America ever got a 4 cylinder option though, that was say... $10,000 less, I would expect to see a lot of those cars get 1jz/2jz swapped.

[QUiKSR20]

https://jalopnik.com/what-we-found-w...sup-1831800550 This is great

[Nextbooost]

Originally Posted by MarkDemma

This is, unfortunately, exactly why neither BMW or Toyota are going to spend the engineering money it would have cost to make the car that the diehard fans would have really really wanted in their heart of hearts.

If that small, small market would be willing to buy products they have already in their lineup, at a higher price point, why bother spending all that money to just cannibalize sales of those existing products?

I'm not saying it's something I agree with ... it would have been cool to have seen a "proper Supra" but alas, the beancounters would have never allowed it. In this market where everyone wants a SUV, it's a small miracle that we're even getting this.

Just curious, if at some point they drop a S58 engine in this would it be more appealing to you?

Nothing about this car is appealing to me, if i want a S58 ill just buy a bimmer with it. Thus the car is a total joke to me and pointless, for what it is and costs i might as well go buy the real thing from bavaria.

Bean counters should maybe look at the mustang and Vett and see you can create a great car and charge from 30ish to north of 100k for it and ill make financial sense.

Two decades to bring back a legend and this is how they do it ? WTF were they thinking. I'm at a loss. They totally misread the fanbase.

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Not only do I support a more "modest" Supra that is priced significantly lower than an M2, rather than a Supra priced in M4 territory... But I think it's the smarter move for something badged as a Toyota. I also argue this new one is priced more similarly to the last generation than a $80k Supra would be.

EDIT: I need to retract my last point regarding relative pricing. While a 1995 Supra $38k Base Liftback is $49k in today's money; the $49k Turbo Liftback works out to $80k in today's money. Interesting.

See they just should have build the Supra exactly as the Ft1 was and made a version from 45/50k all the way up to north of 100k. Built on a platform (IS/RC/LC new whatever) shared with lexus to cut costs, but no. They have one of the greatest brain farts ever in the automotive industry.

[J-aec]

Seems the masses are too quick to pass judgement. Eagerly waiting for performance data and driving impressions from trusted auto journalist. I'm hoping they built a coherent performance vehicle. I see a lot of potential in this car...

[wdb]

Originally Posted by Powaup

The air vents can actually be functional "The holes are there to be used" LOLOL

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sho...ts-functional/

Not sure if you're making fun of it or not. I see it as a nod to all the Supra faithful who are going to buy this and mod the snot out of it.

Originally Posted by Robotechnology

I don’t have a problem with the looks or the specs. I like it. I do have a problem with the gall and sheer nerve Toyota has to call this car a Supra and not offer it in manual. Don’t care if they’re talking about possibly adding it in the future. Should NEVER have been engineered without a manual in mind from the outset. This is such an epic fail!

Are you a Toyota insider? Do you know that they did not have plans to offer a manual all along? Please keep in mind that we manual lovers are a small and shrinking segment; holding us at bay is a way to keep the sales numbers up over a longer period.

Originally Posted by J-aec

Seems the masses are too quick to pass judgement. Eagerly waiting for performance data and driving impressions from trusted auto journalist. I'm hoping they built a coherent performance vehicle. I see a lot of potential in this car...

Latest R&T print edition includes a review of the Z4. They're noncommittal on the looks but loved the drive.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

Well, for one, Nissan has a bonified racing heritage, as does BMW, and most Marqs. VW has both Audi Sport and Porsche. Toyota doesn't really participate in major motorsports (NASCAR does not count!)

Oh yes it does -- you don't count WRC or WEC (both of which Toyota have won outright in recent years) as a 'major' motorsport category?

It just doesn't do it for the same 'sexy' reasons as most other makers. It does it as a development platform for consumer-level products: nothing more, nothing less. It is purely a strategic thing relative to the end game of consumer vehicle sales -- as its involvement in NASCAR has demonstrated.

Understand why Toyota races, and you'll understand why Toyota makes its decisions for cars like the Supra. It really is as simple as that for the company -- and that's not translatable to any other carmaker that also races, which is why it's so misunderstood.

Oh, and to the n00b yahoo who thinks that people don't cross-shop Lexus with Toyota: The only reason the Lexus CT was designed and sold was because Prius owners expressed mass interest in a more luxurious, more conventional-looking version of the Prius. If that's not cross-shopping -- combined with, in this instance, cross-development (Hey! There's a familiar theme in this thread!), I don't know what is.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by J-aec

Seems the masses are too quick to pass judgement. Eagerly waiting for performance data and driving impressions from trusted auto journalist. I'm hoping they built a coherent performance vehicle. I see a lot of potential in this car...

None of the arguments are that it will be slow or that it will have poor performance. The BMW under its skin is already a proven performer, The problem is it has nothing to do with the "SUPRA" name or "Toyota" for that matter.

If they wanted to save money and still stand true to the "INLINE 6 TURBO" the supra is known for and still save a few bucks they could of just poached the BMW Motor / Trans etc and still left the rest all Toyota from the Lexus bin or wherever else. Thats not what this is and thats the issue, This is a FULL BMW w/ a Toyota skin... All the HVAC / Cluster / Interior / Switch gear / electronics etc should of been all from Toyota not BMW.

[Red Bread]

Serious question, wouldn't it be easier to service this at a BMW dealer? Would be amusing if it came with "free" maintenance at the nearest BMW dealer.

[stevenvillatoro]

Originally Posted by QUiKSR20

None of the arguments are that it will be slow or that it will have poor performance.

"Slow" and "poor" are relative terms. Unless the Supra can outperform some very competitive rivals, it won't make headlines for long. Only time will tell.

[mfindigital]

Originally Posted by Soterios

Ehhhhhhhh.... I'll bite.

The 2JZ is a stronger motor. I think it's hard to argue. It's not hard to see four digit power on a stock longblock. You can expect 400whp on stock twins, but if you're doing a swap, you're likely going single turbo anyways. It's also way more aftermarket friendly (and cheaper to modify) because it's been around a lot longer. A friend of mine that owns a performance shop has but 1jzs and 2jzs in just about everything you could imagine. (inlcuding a couple of BRZ/GT86/FRS) They're just plentiful motors and it's easy to make reliable power with them.

The B58 is nice, but it's not a JZ.

All that said, I think it's just a meme. No one besides some speed shops and some youtube channels will actually go buy a $60,000 car and immediatly throw a twenty year old motor in it for $15,000.

If America ever got a 4 cylinder option though, that was say... $10,000 less, I would expect to see a lot of those cars get 1jz/2jz swapped.

4 digits hp is at least a little difficult in a JZ. They are great engines, but they would ruin the handling balance of the car since they weigh 600lbs. Their power delivery does not mesh with modern cars, they make power higher in the rev range, that's not what the consumer demand shows is desired. 4 digit power is also completely unusable on the street, canyons and anywhere but runway tracks. The b58 is making mid 500whp with a turbo swap and ethanol, so they lose the 5% of new supra consumers that would look to build a 1000whp car. I think the vast majority of enthusiasts are more than happy with 500whp. But i'm sure some people will look forward to ruining the geometry of the car in the search for 1000whp numbers.

[MarkDemma]

Originally Posted by Nextbooost

Nothing about this car is appealing to me, if i want a S58 ill just buy a bimmer with it. Thus the car is a total joke to me and pointless, for what it is and costs i might as well go buy the real thing from bavaria.

Bean counters should maybe look at the mustang and Vett and see you can create a great car and charge from 30ish to north of 100k for it and ill make financial sense.

Two decades to bring back a legend and this is how they do it ? WTF were they thinking. I'm at a loss. They totally misread the fanbase.


See they just should have build the Supra exactly as the Ft1 was and made a version from 45/50k all the way up to north of 100k. Built on a platform (IS/RC/LC new whatever) shared with lexus to cut costs, but no. They have one of the greatest brain farts ever in the automotive industry.

Something I didn't know until I read an article about the Mk4 Supra is that the US sales were abysmal. Chevy sold more Vettes in a year than the entire run of the Mk4, even though the Supra was a much more advanced car. It's no surprise they discontinued the it and didn't bother to do a new version, with sales numbers that low.

Had it not been for "That Movie(s)" the Supra would have probably been relegated to the dust bin of history, save for the precious few who owned / raced one of them. Now, it seems, just like there are more people who have claimed to been at Woodstock than ever went, seems that there are way more Supra "purists" than ever actually owned one. People have their torches and pitchforks out without ever actually driven the thing ... heck we haven't really gotten full reviews of it yet. But some people have made up their minds on the principle of the thing.

Seems that they must have appealed to people outside of the armchair purists, from what I've seen reported the first year's allotment is almost sold out already.

I'm not saying there are things I personally would want to see different about this car before I'd want to buy one. I do rather like the B58 and appreciate a RWD car with 50/50 weight distribution. But I'd rather less fake vents, manual, back seat and a usable trunk - but hey there's a car for that - a M240i and I already have one!

Let's say they built the car that the armchair purists wanted - it would have cost a whole lot more and basically would have been in the same segment as their Lexus LC, of which they sold like 12? It would be yet another car that folks appreciated existed, but hardly anyone actually bought. I was shocked to see how few of the new NXSeses have actually sold, even though as a former Acura guy I appreciate that they "did it right".

At the end of the day, we've got a new RWD sports coupe out there, that seems like it will sell well. Hopefully it will encourage car makers to keep making cars like that ... and they might get rid of some of the fake vents and add a manual in subsequent years.

Oh here's the article I mentioned, found it interesting.

http://www.thedrive.com/news/25959/w...oyota-gr-supra

[MarkDemma]

Originally Posted by stevenvillatoro

"Slow" and "poor" are relative terms. Unless the Supra can outperform some very competitive rivals, it won't make headlines for long. Only time will tell.

If they are true to form Supra owners, they'll all be modded to the teeth. Which means ... more / better mods for the B58! Which I see as a good thing haha.

[Soterios]

Originally Posted by mfindigital

4 digits hp is at least a little difficult in a JZ. They are great engines, but they would ruin the handling balance of the car since they weigh 600lbs. Their power delivery does not mesh with modern cars, they make power higher in the rev range, that's not what the consumer demand shows is desired. 4 digit power is also completely unusable on the street, canyons and anywhere but runway tracks. The b58 is making mid 500whp with a turbo swap and ethanol, so they lose the 5% of new supra consumers that would look to build a 1000whp car. I think the vast majority of enthusiasts are more than happy with 500whp. But i'm sure some people will look forward to ruining the geometry of the car in the search for 1000whp numbers.

Yeah. Like I said, it's not going to happen much at all, and probably isn't a good idea. I just think the JZ is an objectively better motor from a performance standpoint even all these years later. Anyone interested in doing this would be doing it for power an not much other reason, so adding 200lbs to the front (no idea what a B58 weights, but I assume it's an alloy block) isn't a big deal either.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by MarkDemma

If they are true to form Supra owners, they'll all be modded to the teeth. Which means ... more / better mods for the B58! Which I see as a good thing haha.

Thats one thing I can agree with People forget when the 2JZ and Supra were out the Japanese Yen I believe was at an all time high
and these manufactures gave their engineering teams the ok for the engineers to show off all they got.

It wasn't being constricted by the bean counters, At this time ( mid 90's ) we had :

• Twin Turbo Z 3.0 DOHC Twin Turbo w/4 wheel steering
• Twin Turbo Supra 3.0 DOHC Twin Turbo ( extremely overbuilt )
• Twin Turbo RX7
• Twin Turbo 3000GT 3.0 DOHC Twin Turbo AWD w/4 wheel steering & active aero

All of these made between 250 & 300HP, Revved and had room for growth.
Its not just Fast and the Furious that made the cars legendary alot had to do
with the overbuilt motor and why they swap 2JZ & 1JZs into tons of cars.

Japanese engines in the 90s were typically overbuilt, I own a 1992 Turbo Sentra ( SR20 ) These motors came with 140HP and revved 7500RPM, With boost they would make 500WHP stock block.
Talk about overbuilt, An engine that came with 140HP and could do 500 WHEEL HP without even opening the block is just how some of these engines were back then.

If you spent any time at the drag strip ( I spent years there ) you would know why people love these engines and cars.

All these cars can make 1000WHP and not everyone needs 1000HP

[MarkDemma]

Originally Posted by QUiKSR20

Thats one thing I can agree with People forget when the 2JZ and Supra were out the Japanese Yen I believe was at an all time high
and these manufactures gave their engineering teams the ok for the engineers to show off all they got.

It wasn't being constricted by the bean counters, At this time ( mid 90's ) we had :

• Twin Turbo Z 3.0 DOHC Twin Turbo w/4 wheel steering
• Twin Turbo Supra 3.0 DOHC Twin Turbo ( extremely overbuilt )
• Twin Turbo RX7
• Twin Turbo 3000GT 3.0 DOHC Twin Turbo AWD w/4 wheel steering & active aero

All of these made between 250 & 300HP, Revved and had room for growth.
Its not just Fast and the Furious that made the cars legendary alot had to do
with the overbuilt motor and why they swap 2JZ & 1JZs into tons of cars.

Japanese engines in the 90s were typically overbuilt, I own a 1992 Turbo Sentra ( SR20 ) These motors came with 140HP and revved 7500RPM, With boost they would make 500WHP stock block.
Talk about overbuilt, An engine that came with 140HP and could do 500 WHEEL HP without even opening the block is just how some of these engines were back then.

If you spent any time at the drag strip ( I spent years there ) you would know why people love these engines and cars.

All these cars can make 1000WHP and not everyone needs 1000HP

Hey good info. And mind you, I wasn't saying that the 2JZ wasn't a great engine. Anything you can boost that high without blowing it apart is just amazing. I am just saying that the general public and even your average petrolhead only knows about it from the movies and it's a much smaller subset of folks like you who have had actual experience with them. Your average American gearhead at the time ... all they wanted was a V8 so didn't really appreciate how advanced the Supra of that time was and how amazing the engine. I did wonder, though, how they could afford to build engines that were both so advanced in their engineering AND so robust. I guess that time was the pinnacle of Japanese sports cars.

I guess most manufacturers are having to pour their money and resources into EV tech these days. So the S58 will probably be the most advanced I6 engine we'll see created before we either all go EV or global warm ourselves out of existence.

[Biginboca]

Originally Posted by MarkDemma

So the S58 will probably be the most advanced I6 engine we'll see created before we either all go EV or global warm ourselves out of existence.

I think BMW discontinued the most advanced I6 motors around 2012, the ultralight and magnesium blocked n52 and direct injected version n53. Of course I am biased in this belief lol

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by MarkDemma

Hey good info. And mind you, I wasn't saying that the 2JZ wasn't a great engine. Anything you can boost that high without blowing it apart is just amazing. I am just saying that the general public and even your average petrolhead only knows about it from the movies and it's a much smaller subset of folks like you who have had actual experience with them. Your average American gearhead at the time ... all they wanted was a V8 so didn't really appreciate how advanced the Supra of that time was and how amazing the engine. I did wonder, though, how they could afford to build engines that were both so advanced in their engineering AND so robust. I guess that time was the pinnacle of Japanese sports cars.

I guess most manufacturers are having to pour their money and resources into EV tech these days. So the S58 will probably be the most advanced I6 engine we'll see created before we either all go EV or global warm ourselves out of existence.

In the end I think its the "Supra" people that will be mad more than the "BMW" Fans ( US ). All this is going to do for us is bring more aftermarket attention and also it will be nice when people start gloating over features / interior etc etc and we look back like ( yep we've had all that for years, welcome to the party ). Unfortunately they will also complain when little finicky issues German cars have arise. Toyotas are known for having little to no issues with not much more than oil changes. My parents have driven basic Toyotas that have gone 150k+ miles with almost 0 maintenance outside of tires / brakes and oil changes.

[MarkDemma]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

I think BMW discontinued the most advanced I6 motors around 2012, the ultralight and magnesium blocked n52 and direct injected version n53. Of course I am biased in this belief lol

I have a N54 (ZHP) does that count?

[Powaup]

Originally Posted by wdb

Not sure if you're making fun of it or not. I see it as a nod to all the Supra faithful who are going to buy this and mod the snot out of it.

Are you a Toyota insider? Do you know that they did not have plans to offer a manual all along? Please keep in mind that we manual lovers are a small and shrinking segment; holding us at bay is a way to keep the sales numbers up over a longer period.

Latest R&T print edition includes a review of the Z4. They're noncommittal on the looks but loved the drive.

I'm making fun of the quote but otherwise i think it's awesome. I love how customizable is this car

I'm 90% sure I'll become an A90 Supra owner. Maybe not in the first year but this car is killing the segment