[zero21]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

My m3 didn’t have this laggy power problem and less HP, less interior volume - those aren’t bragging rights

M3's are different cars - 4doors vs. 2. I specifically mentioned M4.

[Ghostrider.1127]

Originally Posted by donm527

RS3

horrible car.

[seis-speed]

Originally Posted by Throttle House Thomas

I appreciate the criticisms (seriously it keeps us honest).
We didn't necessarily contradict prior reviews but I understand why it seems that way. We always have lauded a peaky power band yes. But, in N/A motors. Turbocharged motors outside of the boost threshold don't have the response of an N/A motor. As a perfect example James' Miata, at similar revs and speeds feels punchier than this M2. So yes, we like a peaky powerband, but not when it harms usability down low. (see the second gear pull James did right before that 4th gear one). And all of that said, one of the fun aspects of the original M2 (and comp) was that it was a little bulldog down low. It broke traction, it was punchy, and angry. The new car feels longer, more settled, stable. (again I did say that does make it objectively better).

As for the technical information that is the fault of the launch itself. Back in the day, an M launch would involved slideshows and discussions about suspension design, differential tuning, and engine components. This had NONE of that. I had to fight to even get the information that the wheels were cast and not forged. The bulk of the presentations were about M as a "brand" or simple highlights and performance figures etc. Makes our job hard. Is it wrong that I miss hour long ultra-dry press presentations where an engineer goes on about camber...

Stand by your review!

I much prefer strong opinions of what a reviewer 'actually' thinks on that particular day, rather than dancing around the faults of the car not wanting to get people upset.

You will gain 1000x fans for every disgruntled forum member on Bimmerpost by sticking to your guns.

Refreshing and much appreciated - Next TH review gets more attention from me, since I think they will actually be honest and not placate for a manufacturer.

[DarkstarZero]

I can confirm that the manual makes the car noticeably slower and, honestly, less fun.

This is coming from someone who bought a F87 M2 CS Manual, along with an OG M2, and nearly every M3 going back to 95...

I've finally come to the conclusion that the last good manual BMW was the e9x M3 with the NA V8. That's because the manuals are geared for fuel efficiency and that doesn't work with turbo engines. The lag and time it takes to get into boost seriously reduces the fun.

And I've also realized that the DCT was an exceptional and fun gearbox that died before the manuals did. We didn't know what we had until it was gone. I should have been paying more attention to that than the manual.

I also agree with Thomas, more grip, more stability equals better lap times but also less fun. I don't go to the track to set good lap times, I go to the track to have fun. And fun is a little too much power, a little slidey. I want to have to tame the beast. And if I set a good lap time, I want it to be because I'm awesome, not because the car did all the work and I was just along for the ride, that's not fun.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by zero21

M3's are different cars - 4doors vs. 2. I specifically mentioned M4.

Obviously, but my points of comparison remain the same

[zero21]

Originally Posted by Throttle House Thomas

I appreciate the criticisms (seriously it keeps us honest).
We didn't necessarily contradict prior reviews but I understand why it seems that way. We always have lauded a peaky power band yes. But, in N/A motors. Turbocharged motors outside of the boost threshold don't have the response of an N/A motor. As a perfect example James' Miata, at similar revs and speeds feels punchier than this M2. So yes, we like a peaky powerband, but not when it harms usability down low. (see the second gear pull James did right before that 4th gear one). And all of that said, one of the fun aspects of the original M2 (and comp) was that it was a little bulldog down low. It broke traction, it was punchy, and angry. The new car feels longer, more settled, stable. (again I did say that does make it objectively better).

As for the technical information that is the fault of the launch itself. Back in the day, an M launch would involved slideshows and discussions about suspension design, differential tuning, and engine components. This had NONE of that. I had to fight to even get the information that the wheels were cast and not forged. The bulk of the presentations were about M as a "brand" or simple highlights and performance figures etc. Makes our job hard. Is it wrong that I miss hour long ultra-dry press presentations where an engineer goes on about camber...

Appreciate it Thomas thank you.

[KevM2]

Sounds like it will need a tune ASAP

[E63M6_G42M240i]

Originally Posted by Throttle House Thomas

To be clear we NEVER SAID the new M2 is going to be slower. In a straight line, or around a track. We pointed out the manual isnt as usable in everyday driving, and we discussed how the new M2 isnt as FUN. I would imagine it will be quicker around the track than the original M2. (I'm sure we will test this). But because of its weight, wheelbase, and tuning, it isn't as lively, nor as engaging as the old one. But again that doesn't mean its "worse."

That’s completely fair. Appreciate your work!

[E63M6_G42M240i]

Originally Posted by DarkstarZero

I can confirm that the manual makes the car noticeably slower and, honestly, less fun.

This is coming from someone who bought a F87 M2 CS Manual, along with an OG M2, and nearly every M3 going back to 95...

I've finally come to the conclusion that the last good manual BMW was the e9x M3 with the NA V8. That's because the manuals are geared for fuel efficiency and that doesn't work with turbo engines. The lag and time it takes to get into boost seriously reduces the fun.

And I've also realized that the DCT was an exceptional and fun gearbox that died before the manuals did. We didn't know what we had until it was gone. I should have been paying more attention to that than the manual.

I also agree with Thomas, more grip, more stability equals better lap times but also less fun. I don't go to the track to set good lap times, I go to the track to have fun. And fun is a little too much power, a little slidey. I want to have to tame the beast. And if I set a good lap time, I want it to be because I'm awesome, not because the car did all the work and I was just along for the ride, that's not fun.

But what I think the reviewers fail to mention is that the S85 is a better platform to make much more power with. You don’t think the g87 with 700 hp will be fun and less planted? That’s my point ok stock f87 is fun heck a Miata is fun but both with likely far less potential.

[T_U_D]

I am mobile and do not think this has been posted yet. It went live approx 45 minutes ago.

[rangerfan94]

Originally Posted by Throttle House Thomas

To be clear we NEVER SAID the new M2 is going to be slower. In a straight line, or around a track. We pointed out the manual isnt as usable in everyday driving, and we discussed how the new M2 isnt as FUN. I would imagine it will be quicker around the track than the original M2. (I'm sure we will test this). But because of its weight, wheelbase, and tuning, it isn't as lively, nor as engaging as the old one. But again that doesn't mean its "worse."

Thomas, big respect for you joining the conversation and engaging us around here today. That's why I like you more than James

So I am a luddite and don't quite understand. Hopefully you can educate me. Why do you say the 6MT "isn't as usable in everyday driving" when, in my mind, you could have downshifted from 4th to 2nd and punched it. Sure, there might have still be a brief, though perceptible, lag, but how does that not make the car as usable for the 90% of us that use the car as a DD and have some fun on twisty, back roads. I guessing I'll have my 6MT car in 2nd or 3rd most of the time on the twistys in my area (that's where the fun is in my MK7.5 Golf R), and if I find I'm in 4th or 5th when I shouldn't be, would not a quick change of gear mostly solve this issue? Really, isn't this just a question of learning the car and how to drive it to get the most from it? Or am I missing something?

To be clear, I am not talking about the track here. This is simply a question about driving local roads.

[T_U_D]

Autocar went live 25 minutes ago.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by T_U_D

I am mobile and do not think this has been posted yet. It went live approx 45 minutes ago.

Looks like we’re probably getting the cheaper black top key. Watching …

[DarkstarZero]

Originally Posted by E63M6_G42M240i

But what I think the reviewers fail to mention is that the S85 is a better platform to make much more power with. You don’t think the g87 with 700 hp will be fun and less planted? That’s my point ok stock f87 is fun heck a Miata is fun but both with likely far less potential.

Oh, I agree, you can make the g87 fun. And I'm all for sympathetic modifications. That is, mods that even concourse judges would be like, "yeah, that's a good call."

The g87 will need a quality tune (not a cheap piggyback, but a real tune), a short shift kit, a carbon CAI for better intake noise, and M performance wheels. And then it'll be a blast.

[E63M6_G42M240i]

Originally Posted by DarkstarZero

Oh, I agree, you can make the g87 fun. And I'm all for sympathetic modifications. That is, mods that even concourse judges would be like, "yeah, that's a good call."

The g87 will need a quality tune (not a cheap piggyback, but a real tune), a short shift kit, a carbon CAI for better intake noise, and M performance wheels. And then it'll be a blast.

Right! 👍

[Alex_bm]

Yes it was. With Thomas being a BMW person in heart it was super biased yet it came somewhat underwhelming. That says something.
G87 is noticeably heavier compared to F87. With added weight you loose some of that playfulness, not much can be done about physics.
I am certain that many drivers will consider more stable car a blessing. That being said BMW already offers M3/M4 with longer wheelbase providing these characteristics. For folks wanting a sensation of a smaller car, BMW has an M2. This is similar to Audi RS3 / RS5, Porsche Cayman / 911, etc.
I will reserve my judgement for when I drive this toy, but hearing about steering feel being worse than F87 is surprising. I liked the steering of G80 better than F80.

Originally Posted by n55f15

Something off about the Throttle House review. They're entitled to their opinion, but it was definitely very biased.

[JTO24]

G80 6MT owner here and former OG F87 6MT owner... the N55 was absolutely punchier around town given the low end grunt it had lower in the rev range. I think peak torque started much lower around 1800-2200 rpm where as the boost threshold of the S58 is around 3400 or so, and in the G80 it pulls all the way to redline. The N55 felt torquier around town but ran out of breath up top.

Both are/were my daily drivers and I've never thought once the G80 felt slow or annoyingly laggy. You can't ride the low end torque wave like you could the N55 while in-gear but a simple down shift solves that; akin to when I had the e92 M3. It's a bit more engaging that way where you shift more. You don't end up driving it as lazily around town.

The shifter and clutch action in the OG M2 were a bit nicer but the overall enjoyment of the 6MT in the G80 is still fantastic; even if the 8AT is faster.

I do prefer the G80 overall for my needs but I can see how the G87 will feel a little less playful than before. The grip on the G80 is mega in comparison to any of the F-gen Ms I've owned. You can still act like a hooligan if you want but perhaps the edginess, playful nature is muted as compared to the previous gen.

Looks I won't cover, YMMV.

[summitp]

I got to the eight of the car and stopped reading. 3800lbs? Wtf guys. Hard pass.

True i can't afford it anyways, but if i could...
3800lbs. Hard pass.

[GuyOh]

Throttle house comment bout it having more grip and therefore less fun, couldn’t they just have lowered the M traction settings?

[zero21]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

My m3 didn’t have this laggy power problem and less HP, less interior volume - those aren’t bragging rights

Laggy power problem was reported by one journalist (duo). Meanwhile video footage of folks running around in a manual transmission show zero power problems.

Less HP? Really, 20hp? The M3 will weigh 100-150lbs more than my M2 (likely). Negligible at best.

Less interior volume? We wanted a smaller car. It's not my daily.

Yes, that is a bragging right. We wanted a small(ish) coupe.

[zero21]

Originally Posted by T_U_D

I am mobile and do not think this has been posted yet. It went live approx 45 minutes ago.

Love Raz's format, ridiculous editing and the technical information - thanks.

[JTO24]

Originally Posted by GuyOh

Throttle house comment bout it having more grip and therefore less fun, couldn’t they just have lowered the M traction settings?

I don't think it's that you can't break traction when you want to... there's certainly enough power to do so but the car is so much more planted with more tire (275f/285r G87 vs 245f/265r F87) that it doesn't want to play as much as the previous gen did. On the reverse of this, the limits will be higher in the G87 than that of the F87, so you'll be able to brake later, take turns faster etc.