[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Templar

What does 3/10 justified mean? That this wasn't really all that justified?

If so, what are you smoking? Because I want some of that good shit!

The cop was stubborn? How so? By performing an investigation into a complaint by a home-owner?

The guy was actually pretty calm at first trying to lie his way through scoping out houses and cars to burglarize in the future. During the course of the investigation (which is exactly what it was) the cop was entirely within limits to ask for his name. The suspect was also well within his right to refuse to answer.

Suspect got pretty intense pretty quickly. Once he got there the cop called for backup (which again is appropriate) and then tried to calm the guy down, but the guy was already too out of hand and wasn't listening.

The guy could have beaten him to death with that shovel. Wonder how many of the folks here posting lately would have praised him for beating a cop to death.

Yes, not very justifiable. But still wouldn't get in trouble for it.

Because the guy was obvious a little slow or aggro.. and although he had a battleaxe-bladed shovel he was little.. unless the cop has a bad hip he's probably not going to get overpowered quickly unless the guy has been secretly training swinging that thing to deliver a lethal blow to the jugular

What cop should have done was back off to a distance. Once it was going to get physical you knew he was going to swing it. If he wanted to subdue him he should have used deception. It was a predictable sequence of events. Different from the traffic stop ones in that he could see his hands and he probably didn't have a gun (because he was out doing stop that he could anticipate someone calling the police on him, unlike where a cop is stopping a previously anonymous vehicle)

[MrPrena]

If someone thinks the shooting on this situation is NOT justified, that is fine.
We will protect ourselves like how this police officer did inside our property, and you protect yourself with this....

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by grimlock

Yes, not very justifiable. But still wouldn't get in trouble for it.

Because the guy was obvious a little slow or aggro.. and although he had a battleaxe-bladed shovel he was little.. unless the cop has a bad hip he's probably not going to get overpowered quickly unless the guy has been secretly training swinging that thing to deliver a lethal blow to the jugular

What cop should have done was back off to a distance. Once it was going to get physical you knew he was going to swing it. If he wanted to subdue him he should have used deception. It was a predictable sequence of events. Different from the traffic stop ones in that he could see his hands and he probably didn't have a gun (because he was out doing stop that he could anticipate someone calling the police on him, unlike where a cop is stopping a previously anonymous vehicle)

Wat? Did you watch the video? At the end i saw the cop turn and run, then fall to the ground from what i assume was a blow from the shovel. The before the video cuts off you can see Shovely Joe taking a position above the cop. (@ 2:31 you can see the blade of the shovel fly over the cop who is laying on his back)

At what point should he have backed off? When the suspect told him to? Is that the message law enforcement should be sending out to the public? Just get pissed off and tell the cop to leave, and they'll do it?

It was a predictable sequence of events because you're watching a video. I bet that if you asked that cop if he thought it was a predictable sequence of events he'd tell you that once he called for back up, he likely expected the suspect to calm down after his tantrum.

[f10inSD]

While the shovel is what would hurt the officer... the real issue isn't what damage the shovel can do. The real issue is what the attacker can do after he knocks out or hurts the officer bad enough to take anything he has up to and including his gun.

Everytime an officer respond to a call there is a gun invloved.... the one they are carrying. People want to comment on what an officer could have done or should have done. All the officer needs to do is make it home alive. Period.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by grimlock

Yes, not very justifiable. But still wouldn't get in trouble for it.

Because the guy was obvious a little slow or aggro.. and although he had a battleaxe-bladed shovel he was little.. unless the cop has a bad hip he's probably not going to get overpowered quickly unless the guy has been secretly training swinging that thing to deliver a lethal blow to the jugular

What cop should have done was back off to a distance. Once it was going to get physical you knew he was going to swing it. If he wanted to subdue him he should have used deception. It was a predictable sequence of events. Different from the traffic stop ones in that he could see his hands and he probably didn't have a gun (because he was out doing stop that he could anticipate someone calling the police on him, unlike where a cop is stopping a previously anonymous vehicle)

Usually your posts are pretty stupid in good fun, but this one takes the cake. Congrats, I am officially surprised.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

Wat? Did you watch the video? At the end i saw the cop turn and run, then fall to the ground from what i assume was a blow from the shovel. The before the video cuts off you can see Shovely Joe taking a position above the cop. (@ 2:31 you can see the blade of the shovel fly over the cop who is laying on his back)

At what point should he have backed off? When the suspect told him to? Is that the message law enforcement should be sending out to the public? Just get pissed off and tell the cop to leave, and they'll do it?

It was a predictable sequence of events because you're watching a video. I bet that if you asked that cop if he thought it was a predictable sequence of events he'd tell you that once he called for back up, he likely expected the suspect to calm down after his tantrum.

Is it too much to ask that they are capable of recognizing a mental case who is just going to get angrier and angrier, who if you go for his hands is obviously going to explode violently like a kid who bashes his head against the wall until mommy gives him what he wants?

Last chance to back off when he raised his voice and body gestured towards the officer. Basically, in my view, he either runs back to his car with his tail between his legs, or he blows his brains out right there. This is not a rational person.. neither is someone drugged out, drunk, suicidal, or delusional.

Yes we can all quarterback AFTER it has happened. But I bet this cop knows a nutcase now when he sees one.

[dreamingat30fps]

That's why I'm not a cop. I would of shot the dude right around the 2min mark once he went ape shit. Or as soon as he reached for the shovel.

[Billup]

Originally Posted by grimlock

Is it too much to ask that they are capable of recognizing a mental case who is just going to get angrier and angrier, who if you go for his hands is obviously going to explode violently like a kid who bashes his head against the wall until mommy gives him what he wants?

Last chance to back off when he raised his voice and body gestured towards the officer. Basically, in my view, he either runs back to his car with his tail between his legs, or he blows his brains out right there. This is not a rational person.. neither is someone drugged out, drunk, suicidal, or delusional.

Yes we can all quarterback AFTER it has happened. But I bet this cop knows a nutcase now when he sees one.

So Grimmy, in your professional opinion...., are you telling me the cop should have stood way further back because he should have expected to get hit by a shovel from a guy who went from decent to angry in .2 seconds? Really, run back to the car and lock the doors so the guy can start beating on the windows or chase the cop down and knock him out from behind on his way to the car?

Delusional people still have legs and can run. If the guy was angry enough, he still could have chased the cop down. Your logic is heavily flawed.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Billup

So Grimmy, in your professional opinion...., are you telling me the cop should have stood way further back because he should have expected to get hit by a shovel from a guy who went from decent to angry in .2 seconds? Really, run back to the car and lock the doors so the guy can start beating on the windows or chase the cop down and knock him out from behind on his way to the car?

Delusional people still have legs and can run. If the guy was angry enough, he still could have chased the cop down. Your logic is heavily flawed.

I guess I must be a magnet for crazy, irrational people because I will stand my ground and keep insisting they are wrong.. and watch them get angrier and angrier until you just know they are going to get violent - at that point it's either you die or they will.

Case in point, the time I was checking out the (school)girl in short skirt, the taxi driver behind me insists I cut him off when we both turned to a different lane.
He was stuck in an intersection blocking traffic, got out and huffed his way to my window with death on his face, then screams like those youtube videos at me through the window. I gesture he should get his ass back into his car, he keeps going, I say I will call the cops, he doesn't care. The light as about to switch allowing me to go, then he GETS IN FRONT OF MY CAR with at least 20 witnesses. This is the point he realizes he cannot kill me, so he's saying "fine, kill me cuz I'm right". So I gesture to him with a curled finger to come to my window and tell me what I did wrong. He sulks back to his car. WTF

Yes, I have a lot of experience with crazy people.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by grimlock

I guess I must be a magnet for crazy, irrational people because I will stand my ground and keep insisting they are wrong.. and watch them get angrier and angrier until you just know they are going to get violent - at that point it's either you die or they will.

Case in point, the time I was checking out the (school)girl in short skirt, the taxi driver behind me insists I cut him off when we both turned to a different lane.
He was stuck in an intersection blocking traffic, got out and huffed his way to my window with death on his face, then screams like those youtube videos at me through the window. I gesture he should get his ass back into his car, he keeps going, I say I will call the cops, he doesn't care. The light as about to switch allowing me to go, then he GETS IN FRONT OF MY CAR with at least 20 witnesses. This is the point he realizes he cannot kill me, so he's saying "fine, kill me cuz I'm right". So I gesture to him with a curled finger to come to my window and tell me what I did wrong. He sulks back to his car. WTF

Yes, I have a lot of experience with crazy people.

No you don't.

When your experience with crazies requires you to get out of the car and calm that man with rational or physical force because you've been charged with doing so as your job, you'll have experience with crazies. When you have to stay with that crazy until they are calm or in custody, you'll have experience with crazies. When the crazies you deal with on a daily basis actually hate you and consider ending your life before allowing you to legally detour theirs, you'll have experience with crazies.

Sitting in a car watching a jackass get all upset about you cutting him off does not equate experience with crazies.

[originalgoods13]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

Canada knows shovels.

In Canada, snow owns you.

We don't have guns but we have plenty of shovels for the right occasion.
The metal tip is good for those sleet and ice days, and it's super sharp.
The ice chipper is pretty sharp as well.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by originalgoods13

In Canada, snow owns you.

We don't have guns but we have plenty of shovels for the right occasion.
The metal tip is good for those sleet and ice days, and it's super sharp.
The ice chipper is pretty sharp as well.

Geez, i didn't know they had a metal lip on the bottom of them. I guess the red one is a result of a plastic shovel with no metal lip?

I havn't shoveled even an ounce of snow in my lifetime.

[kmarei]

I don't know enough about law enforcement in the US, nor what equipment they have access to
in the first video, the crazy snow removal guy
could the cop not have tazed him?
the guy was definitely aggressive, but it just seems killing someone because he came at you with a snow shovel seems a bit excessive

a better option is to neutralize the aggressor
tazing gives you enough to hand cuff him no?

[Billup]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

Geez, i didn't know they had a metal lip on the bottom of them. I guess the red one is a result of a plastic shovel with no metal lip?

I havn't shoveled even an ounce of snow in my lifetime.

#floridaproblems


I used to use my hockey stick as a back up shovel.

[originalgoods13]

Originally Posted by kmarei

I don't know enough about law enforcement in the US, nor what equipment they have access to
in the first video, the crazy snow removal guy
could the cop not have tazed him?
the guy was definitely aggressive, but it just seems killing someone because he came at you with a snow shovel seems a bit excessive

a better option is to neutralize the aggressor
tazing gives you enough to hand cuff him no?

This reminds me of playing Left 4 Dead, if there is a zombie coming right at me and if I have to choose between the pistol and M16, well...

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

No you don't.

When your experience with crazies requires you to get out of the car and calm that man with rational or physical force because you've been charged with doing so as your job, you'll have experience with crazies. When you have to stay with that crazy until they are calm or in custody, you'll have experience with crazies. When the crazies you deal with on a daily basis actually hate you and consider ending your life before allowing you to legally detour theirs, you'll have experience with crazies.

Sitting in a car watching a jackass get all upset about you cutting him off does not equate experience with crazies.

Well if you want to get technical, that's precisely why I don't choose to deal with crazies on a daily basis - because you can't win. As I said before, it's you either have to overpower them or strike the fear of god into them, or you run away, because to them it's their LIFE.
Trying to talk them down, befriend them whatever, is possible if you have no options (I once admited fault in a minor collision with a crazy who got a scratch on his car but mine didn't and I paid him $25 to make him go away. He was still catatonic but by paying him off he could no longer psychologically target me as the source of all his problems, so it was funny he was just still mad but with no one to be mad at)

Hey, you don't have to believe me if you don't want to.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by kmarei

I don't know enough about law enforcement in the US, nor what equipment they have access to
in the first video, the crazy snow removal guy
could the cop not have tazed him?
the guy was definitely aggressive, but it just seems killing someone because he came at you with a snow shovel seems a bit excessive

a better option is to neutralize the aggressor
tazing gives you enough to hand cuff him no?

That depends on a few things.

1. Is the cop equipped with a taser.
2. What kind of taser.

If he has not got a taser on his person, end of discussion.

If he does have a taser and it's the type that shoots two barbs, there are a few factors that come into play.

- Shovely Joe's jacket is too thick for the barbs to penetrate.
- You have to be a sufficient distance away from your target to allow the barbs to spread out. If they are attached to your skin too closely together, they may not close the electrical circuit and prove infective.
- Because a cop's pistol can sometimes be the only tool to defend his or her life, it is always going to occupy the side of the belt closest to the officer's dominant hand. That means the taser is going to be somewhere else on the officer's belt making it more difficult to get to in a situation when they are being attacked.


Further more, what's he going to after he's knocked you unconscious with that shovel. You assume he would run away. As pointed out elsewhere in this thread or another, what if he then proceeds to get the officer's gun. Now you have a possibility of a crazy bastard possibly shooting the officer, and if nothing else, will be out in public with a cop's stolen gun. Think he'll have a problem shooting you after he's just beat an officer unconscious or to death even?

As the general public we're conditioned by seeing these types of events on TV either in the media or in entertainment. The general public doesn't realize that there is no commercial break, or story of elderly woman being ripped off by gas station up next. There is no cut to the other story line in like in CIS. Things don't just stop after the "incident" is over. The incident can and often does continue on after the general public has lost interest, some times for days.

The offender will control the situation. The general public thinks that the officer is controlling the situation. That's not true. The suspect is controlling the situation. The officer is there 99 times out of 100 as a reactionary force. They were called to or witnessed something and are reacting to it. Every person involved in a police interaction 99.999% of the time has complete control over whether or not the interaction turns violent. I'm not saying there aren't some bad cops out there that do some outlandish crap, but by far and away the vast majority of cops are decent people and statistics show that even though the odds are against the cops, the majority of the time the interaction is peaceful unless the suspect chooses otherwise.

If Shovely Joe had calmed down, even after he called for back up, nothing (violent) would have happened. Up until the point in which he reared back with his shovel, he could have deescalated the situation and been alive today. But once he made a threatening move like that, no way the officer was not going to forcibly subdue him.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by kmarei

I don't know enough about law enforcement in the US, nor what equipment they have access to
in the first video, the crazy snow removal guy
could the cop not have tazed him?
the guy was definitely aggressive, but it just seems killing someone because he came at you with a snow shovel seems a bit excessive

a better option is to neutralize the aggressor
tazing gives you enough to hand cuff him no?

I've watched cops a few times so I think I'm probably qualified to answer this. In cops I have seen them taze people over and over and it do practically nothing. They would have 4 cops on top of some crack head and they taze the sob over and over again and he just keeps fighting.

I guess crack > tazer

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

I've watched cops a few times so I think I'm probably qualified to answer this. In cops I have seen them taze people over and over and it do practically nothing. They would have 4 cops on top of some crack head and they taze the sob over and over again and he just keeps fighting.

I guess crack > tazer

I wonder if a stun gun would be suitable
I know a gun works 100% of the time
But it seems excessive to deal with all situations with a gun
I mean that guy could have been a model citizen, and was having a bad day
Terminating his entire life for one act seems overkill
I don't know

[grimlock]

Reminds me of this:
(the operator is laughing)

[Billup]

Originally Posted by grimlock

Hey, you don't have to believe me if you don't want to.

Dude...., you don't know what "crazies" are until you're homeless. You don't know the first meaning of crazy. What you've dealt with is undirected aggravation and normal human irrationalizations in certain situations.


You want to know what "crazy" is..., seeing some dude stand outside a baseball stadium, asking for change, then taking that change and using it on 3 singles of smirnoff and a BJ from the guy who lives in the tent next to his. That my friend, is fucking crazy.

There are people who can't handle their own actions rationally, and there are people who can't control their own mind rationally. Huge difference between the two. I've seen some fucked up shit, that I'm sure would be crazy to see in third world countries.

[aksi]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

Watching the video gives you an idea what they go thru on their job each day.

Exactly what I was thinking. People who think cops just fo around killing people and etc, they probably have this "i am the one that always gets disadvantage in everything" kinda people. Not even going to waste my time with those people.