[Tag]

Originally Posted by Throttle House Thomas

Hey Everyone, Thomas from Throttle House here. Our review of the M2 was very thoroughly thought out, and we stand by the things we said. Drop your questions here and I'll try to answer them.
To address one thing re: lugging the engine in 4th. We also did the same in second gear the moment before and you can see how unresponsive the powertrain is at low revs. The 4th gear pull was just a way of REALLY showing it off. For reference my OG M2 pulls hard almost immediately at lower revs. Off boost turbocharged motors feel really dull. And the amount of off-boost in this engine is much larger than normal. But feel free to respond and Ill partake in discussion!

I value honest reviews, especially since I plan on buying this car. While most here looked at your review negatively I took a different view. To me this seems like it may be a bug with the MT tuning and puts BMW on notice come out with a tuning update to address the lag.

[Throttle House Thomas]

Originally Posted by CodeSlinger

Thanks for dropping in the comments here. Did you talk to other reviewers at the event about this? It seems weird that no one else had similar comments around turbo/torque lag, especially from a manual vs auto POV.

I actually did speak to a few journalists who felt the same thing. I wont say who, but I was not the only one that noticed what we noticed. What they say in their actual reviews however I have no control over.

[npirnia]

It’s worth mentioning that altitude is a bit of a factor here too.

Scottsdale is at 2500’ and the hills around it are above 3000’. An NA car would lose about 10% of its power at that altitude. Turbocharged cars offboost see an even bigger hit as a result of altitude, but minimal loss on-boost. This partly accounts for the more dramatic difference between on-boost and off-boost performance here.

Under most circumstances, it wouldn’t be too noticeable, but the review was about “splitting hairs”. With everyone there to review and scrutinize every detail, a 10-15% drop in low rpm torque is going to be impactful (and likely even more loss at really low RPMs).

The ZF8 offsets this performance issue considerably with shorter gearing and the ability to shift on-throttle. The ZF8/B58 combo is offboost a lot less than the 6-speed under normal operation. I’m not worried about 6 speed manual performance under normal conditions and these test conditions are a bit of an outlier.

Otherwise, I rather enjoyed the video and it didn’t decrease my enthusiasm for the new car at all.

Best,

Nick

[zero21]

Originally Posted by Throttle House Thomas

I actually did speak to a few journalists who felt the same thing. I wont say who, but I was not the only one that noticed what we noticed. What they say in their actual reviews however I have no control over.

Thank you for stating this and providing that context. Certainly provides clarity and reflection, but also complete disappointment that it would be a major issue and yet others refused to mention it.

Thank you for participating in this discussion.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by zero21

Thank you for stating this and providing that context. Certainly provides clarity and reflection, but also complete disappointment that it would be a major issue and yet others refused to mention it.

Thank you for participating in this discussion.

I'd like to know if this issue was brought up to BMW and what they had to say about it.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by zero21

Not one bit: the video is trashy journalism clickbait and we all bought it by talking about it. Let them have their Lotus Emira with a Camry engine and reliability issues. Which by the way is slower but praised for being fast and fun.

No one puts a car into 4th at 30mph with gearing long enough for 120 and mashes the throttle and complains about turbo lag. That's pure idiocy.

Moving on...

Edit: Sorry, 4th is good to 140mph - even dumber than I previously thought.

You guys are out of your mind. One of them likes the M2 so much he bought a previous gen M2. The truth is compared to the previous gen, the g87 isn't more fun, it doesn't look better, and it's not more practical. Does come with a warranty though, so that's something.

But people flown in and wined and dined by BMW and given time with a car for review are generally just going to parrot all the same stuff. Baby M4, Manual transmission, straight 6! They are not going to address would they prefer the previous gen. BMW isn't going to bring the previous gen out for them to test because they know the answer.

Is it terrible to drive no. Is it more interesting or fun than the previous gen? Better not address that or it will upset BMW who pays to fly you to the car and may choose to not invite you next time.

[PNTDG42]

The S58 is a pretty low compression ratio 3 liter with turbos large enough to support like 750whp. It’s just going to sacrifice some of that inherently eager sensation at low RPMs. I’ve not driven a manual one but I have a x3m LCI, and that’s been my only complaint about the power train. No doubt a torque converter auto helps mask it a little too. The B58 with small single and 11:1 CR drives probably closer to what they expect in the lower RPM but of course gives up loads at high RPM and overall power potential with minimal mods. It’s not a v8; something has to give, you can’t have it all. I think you guys are going to absolutely fuckin love the car, and these reviewers just spit out whatever they feel in the moment.. and it’s too bad it basically gets written in stone forever.

[DukeDirtfarmer]

Everyone,

The N55 and S58 are both 3L displacement, with the S58 making significantly more power.


The S58 turbos will need more engine speed to spool up.

Edit: I see PNTDG42 beat me to the explanation.

I'll add that I'll happily take a power delivery that's more S54-like rather than diesel-like.

[Piyush]

Other review shared the similar opinion like TH

https://youtu.be/0R2UET8t0NI

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by akkando

You guys are out of your mind. One of them likes the M2 so much he bought a previous gen M2. The truth is compared to the previous gen, the g87 isn't more fun, it doesn't look better, and it's not more practical. Does come with a warranty though, so that's something.

But people flown in and wined and dined by BMW and given time with a car for review are generally just going to parrot all the same stuff. Baby M4, Manual transmission, straight 6! They are not going to address would they prefer the previous gen. BMW isn't going to bring the previous gen out for them to test because they know the answer.

Is it terrible to drive no. Is it more interesting or fun than the previous gen? Better not address that or it will upset BMW who pays to fly you to the car and may choose to not invite you next time.

Why even watch the videos or why even have reviews seeing you have discovered the truth for us. Also I assume you have driven one seeing you can comment on how it drives?

[W///]

Originally Posted by zero21

Not one bit: the video is trashy journalism clickbait and we all bought it by talking about it. Let them have their Lotus Emira with a Camry engine and reliability issues. Which by the way is slower but praised for being fast and fun.

No one puts a car into 4th at 30mph with gearing long enough for 120 and mashes the throttle and complains about turbo lag. That's pure idiocy.

Moving on...

Edit: Sorry, 4th is good to 140mph - even dumber than I previously thought.

Your loss for calling it "just" a Camry engine. If anything, I walked away from a Evora test drive being very impressed with drivetrain.

Originally Posted by zero21

Thank you for stating this and providing that context. Certainly provides clarity and reflection, but also complete disappointment that it would be a major issue and yet others refused to mention it.

Thank you for participating in this discussion.

What makes you think this is an "issue"? Have you ever driven an S58 before? Compared to an N55T or S55, or even B58, the S58 doesn't have as much low down torque. That is just the nature of the engine. It shines when you are at the top of the rev range though.

Considering the engine has been out for years, this is hardly a surprise.

[baron95]

In general, I like Throttle House, and find them informative and entertaining.

But their review of the M2 was outright disrespectful and out of line - specially the segment on the M2's appearance.

I get it that they were trying to be "Jeremy Clarkson funny", but they don't know how to pull it off. When the BMW team puts such effort in delivering an enthusiast small coupe, fighting all the market trends, to have 2 dudes make crass and baseless comments on the appearance is just over the line. Commenting on the looks of the fronts of BMWs was original 3 years ago. Now it is just boring.

They should be put on the freezer by BMW and excluded from future press cars until they change their ways.

There is a way to be constructively critical. There is a way to funny. That review was not it. Shame.

[Gib007]

A friend of mine was taken by the Honda Civic Type R after raving reviews from all the big names on YouTube. He has one now and absolutely despises the car. He calls it a joke of a hairdryer. He now no longer trusts anything on reviews. 😂

[SW19]

Originally Posted by Gib007

A friend of mine was taken by the Honda Civic Type R after raving reviews from all the big names on YouTube. He has one now and absolutely despises the car. He calls it a joke of a hairdryer. He now no longer trusts anything on reviews. 😂

What was his major issue with the new Type R?The reviews that i have read said there wasn't any torque steer but some wheel hop under hard acceleration.

[zero21]

Originally Posted by PNTDG42

The S58 is a pretty low compression ratio 3 liter with turbos large enough to support like 750whp. It’s just going to sacrifice some of that inherently eager sensation at low RPMs. I’ve not driven a manual one but I have a x3m LCI, and that’s been my only complaint about the power train. No doubt a torque converter auto helps mask it a little too. The B58 with small single and 11:1 CR drives probably closer to what they expect in the lower RPM but of course gives up loads at high RPM and overall power potential with minimal mods. It’s not a v8; something has to give, you can’t have it all. I think you guys are going to absolutely fuckin love the car, and these reviewers just spit out whatever they feel in the moment.. and it’s too bad it basically gets written in stone forever.

Awesome post - appreciate the context and legit feedback.

[skyline408]

I wonder if the 4th gear at 30mph 'issue' is prevalent in the M3/4.

I have the M3 6MT, and never once thought the car needed too much time to gather boost, or lag in any way. I find the power delivery very linear.

I can certainly try..

[zero21]

Originally Posted by W///

Your loss for calling it "just" a Camry engine. If anything, I walked away from a Evora test drive being very impressed with drivetrain.



What makes you think this is an "issue"? Have you ever driven an S58 before? Compared to an N55T or S55, or even B58, the S58 doesn't have as much low down torque. That is just the nature of the engine. It shines when you are at the top of the rev range though.

Considering the engine has been out for years, this is hardly a surprise.

No, I haven't driven one - there aren't any test drives available even if I wanted to.

This is pretty much the exact opposite of what everyone says in the forums about having crap tons of torque everywhere and launching from any RPM.

This is absolutely not what I've been reading about for six months.

[JTO24]

Originally Posted by PNTDG42

The S58 is a pretty low compression ratio 3 liter with turbos large enough to support like 750whp. It’s just going to sacrifice some of that inherently eager sensation at low RPMs. I’ve not driven a manual one but I have a x3m LCI, and that’s been my only complaint about the power train. No doubt a torque converter auto helps mask it a little too. The B58 with small single and 11:1 CR drives probably closer to what they expect in the lower RPM but of course gives up loads at high RPM and overall power potential with minimal mods. It’s not a v8; something has to give, you can’t have it all. I think you guys are going to absolutely fuckin love the car, and these reviewers just spit out whatever they feel in the moment.. and it’s too bad it basically gets written in stone forever.

Well said... I'll add my 2 cents as posted in the main thread:

G80 6MT owner here and former OG F87 6MT owner... the N55 was absolutely punchier around town given the low end grunt it had lower in the rev range. I think peak torque started much lower around 1800-2200 rpm where as the boost threshold of the S58 is around 3400 or so, and in the G80 it pulls all the way to redline. The N55 felt torquier around town but ran out of breath up top.

Both are/were my daily drivers and I've never thought once the G80 felt slow or annoyingly laggy. You can't ride the low end torque wave like you could the N55 while in-gear but a simple down shift solves that; akin to when I had the e92 M3. It's a bit more engaging that way where you shift more. You don't end up driving it as lazily around town.

The shifter and clutch action in the OG M2 were a bit nicer but the overall enjoyment of the 6MT in the G80 is still fantastic; even if the 8AT is faster.

I do prefer the G80 overall for my needs but I can see how the G87 will feel a little less playful than before. The grip on the G80 is mega in comparison to any of the F-gen Ms I've owned. You can still act like a hooligan if you want but perhaps the edginess, playful nature is muted as compared to the previous gen.

Looks I won't cover, YMMV.

[F87inJAX]

Originally Posted by Throttle House Thomas

Hey Everyone, Thomas from Throttle House here. Our review of the M2 was very thoroughly thought out, and we stand by the things we said. Drop your questions here and I'll try to answer them.
To address one thing re: lugging the engine in 4th. We also did the same in second gear the moment before and you can see how unresponsive the powertrain is at low revs. The 4th gear pull was just a way of REALLY showing it off. For reference my OG M2 pulls hard almost immediately at lower revs. Off boost turbocharged motors feel really dull. And the amount of off-boost in this engine is much larger than normal. But feel free to respond and Ill partake in discussion!

From your review, I’m not guessing you’d buy the G87. But you guys made an interesting comment about the ZF8 vs the manual. I’ve got a 2018 manual and I’m considering getting the G87 (currently on a waiting list). I’m a manual guy. Considering what you and James both said about it, if you were going to buy a G87, would you go with the manual or the auto? Just curious as to whether the difference in the car was enough to sway you.

[BimmerMat135]

Originally Posted by Throttle House Thomas

Hey Everyone, Thomas from Throttle House here. Our review of the M2 was very thoroughly thought out, and we stand by the things we said. Drop your questions here and I'll try to answer them.
To address one thing re: lugging the engine in 4th. We also did the same in second gear the moment before and you can see how unresponsive the powertrain is at low revs. The 4th gear pull was just a way of REALLY showing it off. For reference my OG M2 pulls hard almost immediately at lower revs. Off boost turbocharged motors feel really dull. And the amount of off-boost in this engine is much larger than normal. But feel free to respond and Ill partake in discussion!

Hi Thomas, first of all i would like to congratulate you for the impressive content on your YouTube Chanel. You might have be ask that question many times but did you review the G87 compared to the F87 or independently? Will a 1M owner enjoy this new M2?

[Bumpinjeep]

JamesThrottle Throttle House Thomas
You guys started a existential crisis on this forum, thanks a lot .
In the next video, please say that you're canceling the Emira order and getting a G87 so that forum members can sleep at night, we have important jobs.

[ourlee]

Hi Thomas, I’m a big fan and enjoy how you boys do your thing. TH looks agenda free and has access to tons more cars than I ever will. Your opinions def guide, not decide, what I buy. Cheers for showing up here.