[T_U_D]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

Yep I remember that statement in the one video which is what makes me question whether or not future iterations of this car will have a manual, hence me jumping on one now. I'd wager real money that comp or CS versions will be auto only.

Originally Posted by sl0m0

Them getting this car as a manual shows they aren't holding out for another potential manual in any of the later iterations, which for me solidifies my decision to get the "base" model instead of waiting and hoping the comp or cs to maybe come as manual.

Yes, Sirs!

[sl0m0]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

Great minds think alike.

Were we typing the exact same response at the same time? I think that "best friends" bit from step bros is over played.

Did you know ungreat minds also think alike?

[Humdizzle]

i agree this will probably be the last manual. it was created like 10+ years ago for the 335i and has not really changed ratios since then. the f80 m3 comp, m2cs, g80 manual, and g87 manual were all limited to 406 lb-ft because the trans cannot handle more safely (for bmw's quality control).

the f80cs was dct only with 443 lb-ft
the g80 comp and csl are auto only with 480

[zero21]

Originally Posted by T_U_D

Yes, Sirs!

And another bell rings for the maestro! How many units have you moved with that?

[Squidget]

I mean OF COURSE it "pairs better" with the automatic. This has been true of every sports car for a long time.

As long when people say "pairs better," they mean "pulls harder" or "has better track times." Those are quantifiably true.

The problem occurs that people actually mean something else, the fun of rowing gears or heel-toeing or rev matching. The management of RPMs to keep your engine in the sweet spot. The engagement and pleasure of mastering an admittedly arcane skill. The willingness... no, eagerness, to do it the hard way. Just because it's more fun.

These are opposing definitions, you can't have both on the same transmission. There's no point in ranking an MT using the first definition, it will lose every time. I mean, duh.

That's why I say TH was sloppy, because WHY would you rate a MT by the first definition? It's like saying "this dead fish is a terrible lawyer!" No shit, that's not the intent of the thing.

If you are gonna talk about MTs, do it right. Assess using the values that most MT users care about (hint: that does not include torque in the WRONG gear). Do it right or not at all.

[M Division]

YouTubers can long-shift and moan about their opinion of the driving feel all they want but the data on the TH review calls BS.

For example, I believe the Hargerty review mentions the S58 in the M2 hit full torque at approximately 2,700RPM - roughly the same as the M3/M4 - give or take (to memory I cant remember all of the exact figures but they're identical or whithin a few 100 RPMs).

1. Documented M2 Torque: 406 lb-ft @ 2650–5870 rpm
2. Documented M3 Torque: 406 ft-lb 2650 - 6130
3. Can't be bothered looking up the gearbox and diff ratios of the G87 and G80/82 but they will be near enough, if not, identical
4. The M2 is actually slightly lighter
5. Therefore in gear acceleration will be near enough identical, if not slightly BETTER in the G87 due to the weight advantage
6. ... And in comparison to the F series, the power curve/torque/weight/gearing/power to weight are near close enough that, once again, in gear acceleration will be close if not better in the G87
7. Unless BMW have programmed the throttle controler to provide a sluggish response specifically in higher gear/lower RPM ranges (they wouldn't and haven't) - then the TH guy was simply driving like a someone who's never driven a manual.. way to higher gear, lower ratio and who knows, up a steep hill or incline.
8. ... Rest my case

Additionally, again to memory the S58 has full torque earlier in the rev range then the N55 in the f series M2 such as the one in the Throttle House garage.

Thus, I claim BS on the theory that the manual M2 is lacking in lower RPM torque when compared then the M3/M4 or F series M2. Unless the gearing is completely different, the review is complete bollocks. Any car, driven in a gear too low for it's torque curve will feel sluggish, any comptent driver knows this..

The entire TH review screams of an F series owner whining about BMW making a new car. It's basically a butt-hurt F series forum post in video form. Disappointing the TH guys have sunk to comedic relief with little factual technical detail, and a lot of bias opinion. The other reviews are better, even the negative ones.

[Albator_IIII]

Originally Posted by M Division

YouTubers can long-shift and moan about their opinion of the driving feel all they want but the data on the TH review calls BS.

For example, I believe the Hargerty review mentions the S58 in the M2 hit full torque at approximately 2,700RPM - roughly the same as the M3/M4 - give or take (to memory I cant remember all of the exact figures but they're identical or whithin a few 100 RPMs).

1. Documented M2 Torque: 406 lb-ft @ 2650–5870 rpm
2. Documented M3 Torque: 406 ft-lb 2650 - 6130
3. Can't be bothered looking up the gearbox and diff ratios of the G87 and G80/82 but they will be near enough, if not, identical
4. The M2 is actually slightly lighter
5. Therefore in gear acceleration will be near enough identical, if not slightly BETTER in the G87 due to the weight advantage
6. ... And in comparison to the F series, the power curve/torque/weight/gearing/power to weight are near close enough that, once again, in gear acceleration will be close if not better in the G87
7. Unless BMW have programmed the throttle controler to provide a sluggish response specifically in higher gear/lower RPM ranges (they wouldn't and haven't) - then the TH guy was simply driving like a someone who's never driven a manual.. way to higher gear, lower ratio and who knows, up a steep hill or incline.
8. ... Rest my case

Additionally, again to memory the S58 has full torque earlier in the rev range then the N55 in the f series M2 such as the one in the Throttle House garage.

Thus, I claim BS on the theory that the manual M2 is lacking in lower RPM torque when compared then the M3/M4 or F series M2. Unless the gearing is completely different, the review is complete bollocks. Any car, driven in a gear too low for it's torque curve will feel sluggish, any comptent driver knows this..

The entire TH review screams of an F series owner whining about BMW making a new car. It's basically a butt-hurt F series forum post in video form. Disappointing the TH guys have sunk to comedic relief with little factual technical detail, and a lot of bias opinion. The other reviews are better, even the negative ones.

I was thinking along similar lines. My 335i has peak torque from 1,400 RPM with a flat table all the way to just before redline. It has been a while and the E46M3 is NA but if I remember right, it felt underwhelming a lower RPM.

The way I understand power/torque is that you can "create" power via 3 ways:

Engine displacement;
Forced induction (NA vs turbo vs supercharger);
Revolution (max RPM)

Also, the gearbox gearing (and diff gearing) will have an influence on how the power translate to the driving axle(s). Turbo size also influence turbo lag significantly.

If the S58 is tuned towards higher RPM range and as more of a top end performance sport smallish cruiser, if you want to maximize this result, you will have to have tradeoffs.

I think Throttle House should totally own their 4th gear challenge. They could put it in all their reviews. It has a great marketing potential as a semi self-own/tongue in cheek branding power for their less serious portion of their reviews.

[Tag]

Posted this in another thread but seems relevant to post here as well.

The gear ratios are identical on the F87 M2/M2C, G80, G82 and G87.



Torque comparisons.

F87 M2
Torque ft-lbs. 343 @ 1,400 - 5,560

F87 M2C
Torque ft-lbs. 406 @ 2,350 – 5,230

G80/82
Torque ft-lbs. 406 @ 2,650 – 6,130

G87
Torque ft-lbs. 406 @ 2,650 – 5,870

Sources:
F87 M2 - Specifications (PDF)
F87 M2C - Specifications (PDF)
G80 M3 - Specifications (PDF)
G82 M4 - Specifications (PDF)
G87 M2 - Specifications (PDF)

[F87inJAX]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

BMW said it's their last manual fully ICE M car. To swap to 8AT based on TH4GC is asinine, IMO, but we're lucky to still have a choice. Those of us that stayed the course will be rewarded.

I’ve got an OG F87 with a manual and a stage 2 tune to around 420 bhp. Then I also bought a Comp with a DCT. Yes, they’re different cars with different engines and different characteristics. But I was shocked at the difference in the two cars. The OG was just fun and seemed like a car that didn’t take itself too seriously. The Comp with the DCT on the other hand… That was like piloting a cruise missile. A precision weapon. The OG was happy at any speed and just about anywhere in the rev range. The Comp wasn’t happy unless it was going flat-out on the highway and you’d end up doing 100+ without even realizing it. It’s not apples to apples, but the transmission does so much to change the personality of the car. And personally, I want the fun version not the dead-serious version, so I’ll stick with my 6MT.

I’ve owned and loved all sorts of different performance cars for different reasons. They all have their own merits. It just comes down to what kind of character you prefer.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by F87inJAX

I’ve got an OG F87 with a manual and a stage 2 tune to around 420 bhp. Then I also bought a Comp with a DCT. Yes, they’re different cars with different engines and different characteristics. But I was shocked at the difference in the two cars. The OG was just fun and seemed like a car that didn’t take itself too seriously. The Comp with the DCT on the other hand… That was like piloting a cruise missile. A precision weapon. The OG was happy at any speed and just about anywhere in the rev range. The Comp wasn’t happy unless it was going flat-out on the highway and you’d end up doing 100+ without even realizing it. It’s not apples to apples, but the transmission does so much to change the personality of the car. And personally, I want the fun version not the dead-serious version, so I’ll stick with my 6MT.

I’ve owned and loved all sorts of different performance cars for different reasons. They all have their own merits. It just comes down to what kind of character you prefer.

That was my experience as well on my previous stock OG M2. My initial impression first time driving it was how eager it was to get going at any given moment. It was spiky but not in a bad way. It had just enough power to be fun but not enough to upset the cars chassis. When I drove the M2C I also noticed what you describe. It wasn't as eager down low, but it had more top end and kept pulling like a freight train where the OG M2 would run out of steam. If I were to sum it up, I'd say you'd have more fun with the OG M2 on streets while the M2C was fun on open roads. Both are great cars in their own distinct ways.

I can't wait to see the results of the #TH4GC on the F87s!

[F87inJAX]

Originally Posted by Tag

That was my experience as well on my previous stock OG M2. My initial impression first time driving it was how eager it was to get going at any given moment. It was spiky but not in a bad way. It had just enough power to be fun but not enough to upset the cars chassis. When I drove the M2C I also noticed what you describe. It wasn't as eager down low, but it had more top end and kept pulling like a freight train where the OG M2 would run out of steam. If I were to sum it up, I'd say you'd have more fun with the OG M2 on streets while the M2C was fun on open roads.

Exactly. It all comes down to what you’re wanting in a car. Maybe a missile vs a scalpel, or a driver’s car vs a GT car. I know I’d much rather have my OG with manual and the tune and all it’s grunt on twisty back roads. The Comp with DCT never felt as much like a car for the twisties.

[F87inJAX]

Originally Posted by Tag

I can't wait to see the results of the #TH4GC on the F87s!

After the discussion on here, out of curiosity I took the tuned OG out and did a pull from 30 in 4th. Hardly scientific like others have done. It wasn’t anywhere near as bad as the TH video, but it was obvious you’d want to be in third rather than 4th (which, of course, I always am on that particular stretch of road). But it’s not a problem I’ve ever run into. My ears are always subconsciously telling me where the engine is when I’m driving. If I need acceleration I make sure the car is making the right sounds before I put my foot down. It’s just called driving a manual.

I am pretty sure that when people on here start getting their cars we aren’t going to hear complaining about acceleration with the manual. We’re going to hear the opposite. Even F87 N55 owners. You adapt to the car.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by F87inJAX

...It’s just called driving a manual.

...You adapt to the car.

[m20e3087]

Now that’s how you drive in 4th gear!