[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by F87source

Well the wing passed the new even more rigorous load tests so still legal, probably really border line though. That's the games all teams play, push the rules to the breaking point in search of performance.

A new wing run at Qatar passed the test, the old bendy Brazil wing was likely used as a prototype for the new test. It’s clever, Max probably confirmed it wasn’t fixed.

Merc may have an issue since they ran bendy after the FIA told all teams to stop the wing nonsense so I don’t agree about it being borderline (opinion) or pushing the boundaries but no point with getting into the legalese nomenclature. Consider the situation if RBR ran this after the first bendy wing fiasco, Merc exploited this and I suspect a draft protest is making the rounds of review internally at RBR. Can’t blame RBR for it.

Toto’s hubris may whipsaw him. He needs to figure out a way to replicate the brazil closing speed at Saudi at all costs, otherwise RBR will have the final piece of the puzzle for the protest. His confirmation that they will be running the Brazil spec PU (another key piece of the puzzle) seems like a foolhardy thing to say out loud.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by Bubbles

A new wing run at Qatar passed the test, the old bendy Brazil wing was likely used as a prototype for the new test. It’s clever, Max probably confirmed it wasn’t fixed.

Merc may have an issue since they ran bendy after the FIA told all teams to stop the wing nonsense so I don’t agree about it being borderline (opinion) or pushing the boundaries but no point with getting into the legalese nomenclature. Consider the situation if RBR ran this after the first bendy wing fiasco, Merc exploited this and I suspect a draft protest is making the rounds of review internally at RBR. Can’t blame RBR for it.

Toto’s hubris may whipsaw him. He needs to figure out a way to replicate the brazil closing speed at Saudi at all costs, otherwise RBR will have the final piece of the puzzle for the protest. His confirmation that they will be running the Brazil spec PU (another key piece of the puzzle) seems like a foolhardy thing to say out loud.

So here's the thing, I have not found one source that the wing was changed just redbull speculating it was. However mercedes said it wasn't changed, and neither did that article that discussed Mercedes passing the new load tests in Qatar. Also nothing on prototypes or new version of a flexi wing.


https://www.grandprix.com/news/merce...-in-qatar.html

From said article:

Not true," a team source told Auto Motor und Sport. "The wing was not changed.

"The wing was rock solid anyway. You could have hung 100 kilos on it - so maybe Red Bull will ask for 105kg next time."




The only proof I have found about a wing change was the changed wing from the one that failed the drs gap inspection in Brazil, and this occured in Brazil.

Otherwise nothing else discussed wing changes at all.


Again it's most likely the Brazil top speed came from the new pu, especially if the rear wings were the same in Qatar, and there's absolutely no evidence that I can find that says it was a different wing.

[F87source]

So unless you guys have proof of a rear wing change in Qatar then it's just more speculation, again I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Otherwise I guess we will really see what top speeds are like in Saudi with the Brazil ice back in.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

So many words because you literally quoted the article as if it proved your talking point but it doesn't. It literally prove the opposite, and showed you guys don't have a clue of what you're talking about. If it indeed said Mercedes had to change their wing then I would have agreed Mercede's old wing pushed the grey area too far but nope it didn't.


I did read the article and I have no issue with what the article is saying, I have an issue with what you're saying. That's why I'm calling you out on it. Zero mention of a wing change, hence they passed the new load tests on their current wing that you guys implied flexed due to "score marks".


So the only cheater this season is redbull and max, as they're the only ones who failed/had to make changes to accomodate nfor a new FIA test. I expect you two to uphold your harsh critiques on max the same way you bashed Lewis. From now on its dirty max, because unlike Mercedes redbull did have to make an entirely new wing to last the test.

So much yada yada from you proves you know little about F1, it's obvious Merc changed the illegal rear wing for the test but you go ahead and believe what preacher toto says every time, the one that swears and gives the finger at the cameras.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

So unless you guys have proof of a rear wing change in Qatar then it's just more speculation, again I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Otherwise I guess we will really see what top speeds are like in Saudi with the Brazil ice back in.

As I said to you before chatter box we don't work in Merc and it's based on our F1 knowledge,experience and engineering skills where you are just believing the Merc guru every time and...it's time for you to wake up and not believe fairy tales.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

So much yada yada from you proves you know little about F1, it's obvious Merc changed the illegal rear wing for the test but you go ahead and believe what preacher toto says every time, the one that swears and gives the finger at the cameras.

Well like I said before, facts and proof keeps us grounded in reality. Without that and it is all just speculation.

I will be happy to retract all statements I made before regarding this matter if given evidence to prove the fact that they did change the wing. Otherwise I maintain the notion that mercedes is innocent until proven guilty - like I said before I maintain a neutral stance if mercedes is guilty I will call them out. If they are innocent I will defend them, same goes for all other teams but you guys really only pick on mercedes so yeah...

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

[...]F1 knowledge,experience and engineering skills[...] [...] wake up and not believe fairy tales[...]

Interesting, iirc:

1) In an earlier thread you did not believe in the power of understanding a car and car setup, and explicity demonstrated that you did not understand the fundamental process of what goes into engineering, product rnd, and testing. So I doubt you really understand the intracacies that go into engineering. Eg. you guys immediately freaked out about the squatting merc suspension saying it was gps controlled, despite the squat not occuring immediately on a straight and only occured as speed picked up (that is not what should occur on a gps controlled squat)- that right there shows you guys don't understand engineering and immediately jump to illogical conclusions.

2) You guys are not the people who should be telling others to stop believing in fairly tales. You literally pull quote, cherry pick, and gobble up everything that comes out of redbull (helmut marko, horner, max etc), regardless if it has any base in reality. I've picked and pulled apart what you guys write multiple times and logically explained why it's wrong. Yet you are unable to prove to me why I am wrong in the same surgical manner.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

Interesting, iirc:

1) In an earlier thread you did not believe in the power of understanding a car and car setup, and explicity demonstrated that you did not understand the fundamental process of what goes into engineering, product rnd, and testing. So I doubt you really understand the intracacies that go into engineering. Eg. you guys immediately freaked out about the squatting merc suspension saying it was gps controlled, despite the squat not occuring immediately on a straight and only occured as speed picked up (that is not what should occur on a gps controlled squat)- that right there shows you guys don't understand engineering and immediately jump to illogical conclusions.

2) You guys are not the people who should be telling others to stop believing in fairly tales. You literally pull quote, cherry pick, and gobble up everything that comes out of redbull (helmut marko, horner, max etc), regardless if it has any base in reality. I've picked and pulled apart what you guys write multiple times and logically explained why it's wrong. Yet you are unable to prove to me why I am wrong in the same surgical manner.

You claim you're not a Merc fan which is hard to believe, but you go on and think what you want. I'm not a person of many words so just go on my many years of F1 experience rather than your limited knowledge, after all you don't work in F1 also huh?

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

Well like I said before, facts and proof keeps us grounded in reality. Without that and it is all just speculation.

I will be happy to retract all statements I made before regarding this matter if given evidence to prove the fact that they did change the wing. Otherwise I maintain the notion that mercedes is innocent until proven guilty - like I said before I maintain a neutral stance if mercedes is guilty I will call them out. If they are innocent I will defend them, same goes for all other teams but you guys really only pick on mercedes so yeah...

Ask yourself where did they get the extra boost in Brazil, you're not such an expert as you think you are if you think it's new PU and mapping to near breaking point and beyond, it is something else.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

You claim you're not a Merc fan which is hard to believe, but you go on and think what you want. I'm not a person of many words so just go on my many years of F1 experience rather than your limited knowledge, after all you don't work in F1 also huh?

Well when I am impartial to any team I just float around, and when I hear people attacking a team with baseless conspiracies I will debunk it and defend said team. Since you and M power have an unhealthy amount of hate for mercedes they are the only team that is ever attacked so they are the only team that neededs to be defended if a defense is just, and since all the stuff you allege about mercedes has no backing a defense is warranted - innocent until proven guilty.


Your many years of f1 experience is irrelevent when it comes down to making such large accusations about a team without proof or fact, and since you don't work in f1 that makes it even more clear that you can't be degrading a team like that especially when you don't understand the work that goes on behind the scenes. I also may not work in f1, but since I am not making huge liabelous accusations against a team without facts backing it I am fine. However that still allows me to call out and debunk any potential statements which are garbage by examining the statment itself by determining if there are holes in its logic. For example the false made up statement bmws dont pass emissions standards, the standards are just forged by bmw and stamped on the chassis so they can just sell the car. Well if this is the case how come 3rd party emissions testing like CARB in the US have not detected any issues with emissions? Why haven't they been sued by governments for a breach?

See if you can find the hole in the logic behind a statement then you can debunk it.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Ask yourself where did they get the extra boost in Brazil, you're not such an expert as you think you are if you think it's new PU and mapping to near breaking point and beyond, it is something else.

There's a difference between being an "expert" and thinking rationally vs just resorting to irrational conspiracy. There could be many factors at play:

1) the engine is new so no deg
2) there aren't many races left so you can risk reliability for performance
3) the car squats reducing drag
4) the high speed nature of the track suits the mercedes setup better - again related to car setup.

Also don't forget the mercedes in brazil didn't have the highest trap speeds, so the numbers are not irrational. And redbull was forced to run a bigger wing than normal because of their drs actuator issues resulting in more drag.

Your explanation is a small amount of wing flex results in more top speed than the drs being wide open... Right an extra couple of mm - cm of space offers more performance than a wide open drs or the squatting rear end of the car which stalls the diffuser and drops a ton of drag. Totally makes sense....


Or maybe the fact that redbull literally has nothing to counter all the attributes 1-4 that mercedes has because their pu is old and thus makes less power than new which is likely less than mercedes even when new, their car can't squat to drop drag, their wing is too big because their drs is messed up.

You guys literally can't look in reality for explanations you have to look in fantasy land.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by F87source

There's a difference between being an "expert" and thinking rationally vs just resorting to irrational conspiracy. There could be many factors at play:

1) the engine is new so no deg
2) there aren't many races left so you can risk reliability for performance
3) the car squats reducing drag
4) the high speed nature of the track suits the mercedes setup better - again related to car setup.

Also don't forget the mercedes in brazil didn't have the highest trap speeds, so the numbers are not irrational. And redbull was forced to run a bigger wing than normal because of their drs actuator issues resulting in more drag.

Your explanation is a small amount of wing flex results in more top speed than the drs being wide open... Right an extra couple of mm - cm of space offers more performance than a wide open drs or the squatting rear end of the car which stalls the diffuser and drops a ton of drag. Totally makes sense....


Or maybe the fact that redbull literally has nothing to counter all the attributes 1-4 that mercedes has because their pu is old and thus makes less power than new which is likely less than mercedes even when new, their car can't squat to drop drag, their wing is too big because their drs is messed up.

You guys literally can't look in reality for explanations you have to look in fantasy land.

You've probably never been in science so you don't know the process of the scientific method. But lets just say you must be able to prove your hypothesis and you form that hypothesis based on reality (even theoretical physcics where they work in the imaginary must have their ideas be able to explain phenomenon that are observed in every day situations), and keep working on it to fit said observations and then rinse and repeat until said hypothesis cannot be debunked. There's a reason why astronomers don't immediately go its aliens on the first observation they find that breaks current understanding. They must slowly work based on previous ideas that are grounded in reality and integrate the new observations that dont fit in current models - and find a logical explanation to explain them. They don't just abandon ship and make crazy claims.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

You've probably never been in science so you don't know the process of the scientific method. But lets just say you must be able to prove your hypothesis and you form that hypothesis based on reality (even theoretical physcics where they work in the imaginary must have their ideas be able to explain phenomenon that are observed in every day situations), and keep working on it to fit said observations and then rinse and repeat until said hypothesis cannot be debunked. There's a reason why astronomers don't immediately go its aliens on the first observation they find that breaks current understanding. They must slowly work based on previous ideas that are grounded in reality and integrate the new observations that dont fit in current models - and find a logical explanation to explain them. They don't just abandon ship and make crazy claims.

You're actually addressing yourself this time but in any case look..you bringing in some scientology into it now.
I stick with my beliefs of F1 knowledge, you can see how Fia overreacted to Horner's reasonable challenge,masi going into mothering mode protecting the errant marshall who panicked showing the flags inside the barrier at Max not the outside and calling in Horner to cover up their own weaknesses to save face.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

You're actually addressing yourself this time but in any case look..you bringing in some scientology into it now.
I stick with my beliefs of F1 knowledge, you can see how Fia overreacted to Horner's reasonable challenge,masi going into mothering mode protecting the errant marshall who panicked showing the flags inside the barrier at Max not the outside and calling in Horner to cover up their own weaknesses to save face.

Scientology and science are two different things, I wouldn't expect you to be able to differentiate though. F1 is heavily involved in engineering which is a subset of science not opinion, no one gets better at anything being closed minded.

And when the only thing you bring is your own knowledge your point of view narrows down to nothing, and you are subjected to bias. Even the rule of law is based on logical thinking and rationale, not just a judge saying this is what I think based on my years of experience no evidence needed. It is also a similar to what people call an arm chair quarter back, where the person watching thinks they know more than the people doing it - which is pretty much how you and m power behave, acting like you know more about mercedes are their supposed cheating (plenum, squatting suspension, engnie, DAS etc) vs. every team on the grid and their engineers who are the among the best on the planet.


The FIA calls have nothing to do with the legality of mercedes's car. When you deal with humans you have to deal with emotion, and since the marshall was a volunteer you cannot expect perfect. Whereas legality of a car means fitting within a set of rules, if you pass the rules you have a legal car.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

Scientology and science are two different things, I wouldn't expect you to be able to differentiate though. F1 is heavily involved in engineering which is a subset of science not opinion, no one gets better at anything being closed minded.

And when the only thing you bring is your own knowledge your point of view narrows down to nothing, and you are subjected to bias. Even the rule of law is based on logical thinking and rationale, not just a judge saying this is what I think based on my years of experience no evidence needed. It is also a similar to what people call an arm chair quarter back, where the person watching thinks they know more than the people doing it - which is pretty much how you and m power behave, acting like you know more about mercedes are their supposed cheating (plenum, squatting suspension, engnie, DAS etc) vs. every team on the grid and their engineers who are the among the best on the planet.


The FIA calls have nothing to do with the legality of mercedes's car. When you deal with humans you have to deal with emotion, and since the marshall was a volunteer you cannot expect perfect. Whereas legality of a car means fitting within a set of rules, if you pass the rules you have a legal car.

Yup knowledge is everything f87

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by F87source

So here's the thing, I have not found one source that the wing was changed just redbull speculating it was. However mercedes said it wasn't changed, and neither did that article that discussed Mercedes passing the new load tests in Qatar. Also nothing on prototypes or new version of a flexi wing.


https://www.grandprix.com/news/merce...-in-qatar.html

From said article:

Not true," a team source told Auto Motor und Sport. "The wing was not changed.

"The wing was rock solid anyway. You could have hung 100 kilos on it - so maybe Red Bull will ask for 105kg next time."




The only proof I have found about a wing change was the changed wing from the one that failed the drs gap inspection in Brazil, and this occured in Brazil.

Otherwise nothing else discussed wing changes at all.


Again it's most likely the Brazil top speed came from the new pu, especially if the rear wings were the same in Qatar, and there's absolutely no evidence that I can find that says it was a different wing.

The lying hounds changed it, take it from me.

[M Hybrid V8]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

The lying hounds changed it, take it from me.

Take it from you? A Max fanatic that's so heavily biased you can't even make rational arguments. You're the last person to be listened to when it comes to anything that doesn't benefit Max & Redbull.

M5Rick: Mercedes wing is illegal!

FIA develops new test and Mercedes wing still passes.

M5Rick: Oh uh well... they must have changed it. I know they did because my years of watching F1 has provided me with more expertise than anyone in the F1 paddock. Ironically my expertise is confined to a F1 subforum on a BMW site. My superior knowledge has led me to conclude that Redbull & Max = Good and all other teams & drivers = Bad. Take it from me, I'm an expert.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

The lying hounds changed it, take it from me.

Just let it go my friend . The HAM preachers won't change anyway ..

[Steeler]

Originally Posted by M2CS

Take it from you? A Max fanatic that's so heavily biased you can't even make rational arguments. You're the last person to be listened to when it comes to anything that doesn't benefit Max & Redbull.

M5Rick: Mercedes wing is illegal!

FIA develops new test and Mercedes wing still passes.

M5Rick: Oh uh well... they must have changed it. I know they did because my years of watching F1 has provided me with more expertise than anyone in the F1 paddock. Ironically my expertise is confined to a F1 subforum on a BMW site. My superior knowledge has led me to conclude that Redbull & Max = Good and all other teams & drivers = Bad. Take it from me, I'm an expert.

You win the internet today sir

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by M2CS

Take it from you? A Max fanatic that's so heavily biased you can't even make rational arguments. You're the last person to be listened to when it comes to anything that doesn't benefit Max & Redbull.

M5Rick: Mercedes wing is illegal!

FIA develops new test and Mercedes wing still passes.

M5Rick: Oh uh well... they must have changed it. I know they did because my years of watching F1 has provided me with more expertise than anyone in the F1 paddock. Ironically my expertise is confined to a F1 subforum on a BMW site. My superior knowledge has led me to conclude that Redbull & Max = Good and all other teams & drivers = Bad. Take it from me, I'm an expert.

Oh yeah take it from me M2CS, I say it how it is.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by dbarton62

You win the internet today sir

Cheapskate

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Just let it go my friend . The HAM preachers won't change anyway ..

33/// Yes my friend it's all gobbledegook from the MIB corner . . ///33