[Squidget]

Originally Posted by Game

I think the point is that there shouldn't have to be a "right gear".

In a car with 450 horsepower, it should pull harder in third at 2k RPM. I'm coming from a supercharged V6 (6mt) with roughly the same power and that was a bit snappier.

Sorry, but gears don't work that way. There absolutely ARE right gears for manuals, that's what makes them manuals.

I also disagree that it "should" pull harder. The S58 has a totally normal torque curve for high-revving turbo engines, so it's doing what it "should" be doing. I think you are applying unusual standards here.

Also, comparing a supercharger to a turbo charger invalidates the whole thing. Of course YES a supercharger is more responsive at the low end. Especially if it's an electric SC. That's the main advantage SCs have over TCs. (SCs have their own disadvantages of course.)

Honestly, it sounds like you don't have a problem with the gearing, it sounds like you just don't like the S58's torque curve. (Which again, is a pretty normal curve for this kind of engine.)

[LCDRJohn]

Originally Posted by Squidget

Sorry, but gears don't work that way. There absolutely ARE right gears for manuals, that's what makes them manuals.

I also disagree that it "should" pull harder. The S58 has a totally normal torque curve for high-revving turbo engines, so it's doing what it "should" be doing. I think you are applying unusual standards here.

Also, comparing a supercharger to a turbo charger invalidates the whole thing. Of course YES a supercharger is more responsive at the low end. Especially if it's an electric SC. That's the main advantage SCs have over TCs. (SCs have their own disadvantages of course.)

Honestly, it sounds like you don't have a problem with the gearing, it sounds like you just don't like the S58's torque curve. (Which again, is a pretty normal curve for this kind of engine.)

And to add to what Squidge is saying:

BMW gave this car a heck of a top end rush, which is not what most modern turbos are doing. Fashionable today is to have that massive 2K build-up, a shelf of torque to 4,500 and then it goes flat. For me...that is Blah.
The earlier turbos had some lag but then ran to the redline with a mad rush (like a McLaren does)
The new M2 makes you work a little for the power. I'm fine with that. (having owned a dozen VTECs over the years,LOL)

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by npirnia

. Later in the drive, the car may try to stab you in the back. Viper's tend not to tolerate shenanigans from their operators.

LOL, you are not the first Viper driver to say their car has actual malice.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by LCDRJohn

The new M2 makes you work a little for the power. I'm fine with that. (having owned a dozen VTECs over the years,LOL)

Preach! The S2000, one of my favorite cars ever, was gutless at the low end. But the F20C engine could sing at the high end.

[Game]

Originally Posted by Squidget

Sorry, but gears don't work that way. There absolutely ARE right gears for manuals, that's what makes them manuals.

I also disagree that it "should" pull harder. The S58 has a totally normal torque curve for high-revving turbo engines, so it's doing what it "should" be doing. I think you are applying unusual standards here.

Also, comparing a supercharger to a turbo charger invalidates the whole thing. Of course YES a supercharger is more responsive at the low end. Especially if it's an electric SC. That's the main advantage SCs have over TCs. (SCs have their own disadvantages of course.)

Honestly, it sounds like you don't have a problem with the gearing, it sounds like you just don't like the S58's torque curve. (Which again, is a pretty normal curve for this kind of engine.)

Originally Posted by LCDRJohn

And to add to what Squidge is saying:

BMW gave this car a heck of a top end rush, which is not what most modern turbos are doing. Fashionable today is to have that massive 2K build-up, a shelf of torque to 4,500 and then it goes flat. For me...that is Blah.
The earlier turbos had some lag but then ran to the redline with a mad rush (like a McLaren does)
The new M2 makes you work a little for the power. I'm fine with that. (having owned a dozen VTECs over the years,LOL)

Well then I look forward to hitting that break in service so I can really open her up and drive her properly. I've owned an RSX-S before, my first manual, and it was probably my favorite car I've owned. Maybe more emotional than anything, but still a fantastic car.

I think I was just expecting an F80 type low end torque curve. Now that I know that's not what the S58 is...I'm fine with that. As long as that power is sitting somewhere in that RPM band I'm sure I'll be happy.

Appreciate the lesson fellas.

[JustinHEMI]

Same as my Z4MC. A veritable symphony at 8k rpm. But she takes a while to get there.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by Game

I think I was just expecting an F80 type low end torque curve but now I know that's not what the S58 is...and I'm fine with that. Just as long as that power is sitting somewhere in that RPM band I'm sure I'll be happy.

Yeah, I still have an N55, which also tuned to the low end, I empathize. You get spoiled by the low end torque, but it tends to cost you at the high end.

Trust me, once you get past break-in, drive the S58 aggressively, get up in the 6000s on a regular basis. The thing PULLS and PULLS and DOES NOT STOP PULLING, it's intoxicating. Don't baby the S58, it likes it rough. Wring out every gear and upshift late. There's TONS of power.

You will begin to REALLY hate speed limits, because you are too busy pulling and don't want to stop.

[cmgbk75]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Isn’t the pin optional? Mine doesn’t ask for it.

Yes completely optional, same as Tesla. That would be a major PITA.

[Game]

Originally Posted by Squidget

Yeah, I still have an N55, which also tuned to the low end, I empathize. You get spoiled by the low end torque, but it tends to cost you at the high end.

Trust me, once you get past break-in, drive the S58 aggressively, get up in the 6000s on a regular basis. The thing PULLS and PULLS and DOES NOT STOP PULLING, it's intoxicating. Don't baby the S58, it likes it rough. Wring out every gear and upshift late. There's TONS of power.

You will begin to REALLY hate speed limits, because you are too busy pulling and don't want to stop.

Probably should've realized that myself watching many videos of the G80/G82 continuing to pull on cars on the high end.

Anyways, I'm pumped to get there.

[JustinHEMI]

My car has been rewarding me handsomely for handling her the way an M car should be.

[cmgbk75]

Originally Posted by sacowich

Double annoying for me. Hate filling up in NJ. Self service is illegal.

Get a motorcycle, they let you do it.

[npirnia]

Originally Posted by Game

Well then I look forward to hitting that break in service so I can really open her up and drive her properly. I've owned an RSX-S before, my first manual, and it was probably my favorite car I've owned. Maybe more emotional than anything, but still a fantastic car.

I think I was just expecting an F80 type low end torque curve. Now that I know that's not what the S58 is...I'm fine with that. As long as that power is sitting somewhere in that RPM band I'm sure I'll be happy.

Appreciate the lesson fellas.

Sorry for my snarky response.

The negativity around low end torque is a pet-peeve of mine. Part of the fun of driving different cars is that they have different characteristics and require different techniques to drive well. When we insist on having "power everywhere" it rules out a lot of different engine types and power bands.

While the transition from high-revving NA motors to turbos is likely about emissions mostly, it is also true that the E90 generation of M3 was the worst selling of them all (except the first of course). I can't help but wonder if the mismatch between expectations of a "414 bhp V8" and the reality of the engine's performance at the bottom of the tach played at least some role. Perhaps this is why the F generation had such explosive low end torque?

I also wonder if part of why the ZF8 "wakes up the car" so much is because it has a different torque curve and actually makes more low end torque. With the 6MT, this might be BMW's attempt to recapture some of the engagement offered by their beloved NA engines like the S54. An engine that requires you to work the gearbox is just what you want with a manual and I am very happy that they tuned it this way.

I just wished more people felt the same and didn't down them for encouraging engagement. Plus, we know that they could give the car a really flat torque curve since they did it with the G80 - I doubt this route was chosen for pure engineering reasons.

-Nick

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

Same as my Z4MC. A veritable symphony at 8k rpm. But she takes a while to get there.

All of the top 5 of the favourite cars I’ve owned or own (Caterham R400, Z4MR, X1/9, highly tuned Austin Healey Sprite, mk2 Civic Si) have had this characteristic, for fun and power they always want to be in the top third of the rev range.

[JustinHEMI]

Originally Posted by npirnia

Sorry for my snarky response.

The negativity around low end torque is a pet-peeve of mine. Part of the fun of driving different cars is that they have different characteristics and require different techniques to drive well. When we insist on having "power everywhere" it rules out a lot of different engine types and power bands.

While the transition from high-revving NA motors to turbos is likely about emissions mostly, it is also true that the E90 generation of M3 was the worst selling of them all (except the first of course). I can't help but wonder if the mismatch between expectations of a "414 bhp V8" and the reality of the engine's performance at the bottom of the tach played at least some role. Perhaps this is why the F generation had such explosive low end torque?

I also wonder if part of why the ZF8 "wakes up the car" so much is because it has a different torque curve and actually makes more low end torque. With the 6MT, this might be BMW's attempt to recapture some of the engagement offered by their beloved NA engines like the S54. An engine that requires you to work the gearbox is just what you want with a manual and I am very happy that they tuned it this way.

I just wished more people felt the same and didn't down them for encouraging engagement. Plus, we know that they could give the car a really flat torque curve since they did it with the G80 - I doubt this route was chosen for pure engineering reasons.

-Nick

Your posts on this topic are all spot on.

[cmgbk75]

Originally Posted by npirnia

Sorry for my snarky response.

The negativity around low end torque is a pet-peeve of mine. Part of the fun of driving different cars is that they have different characteristics and require different techniques to drive well. When we insist on having "power everywhere" it rules out a lot of different engine types and power bands.

While the transition from high-revving NA motors to turbos is likely about emissions mostly, it is also true that the E90 generation of M3 was the worst selling of them all (except the first of course). I can't help but wonder if the mismatch between expectations of a "414 bhp V8" and the reality of the engine's performance at the bottom of the tach played at least some role. Perhaps this is why the F generation had such explosive low end torque?

I also wonder if part of why the ZF8 "wakes up the car" so much is because it has a different torque curve and actually makes more low end torque. With the 6MT, this might be BMW's attempt to recapture some of the engagement offered by their beloved NA engines like the S54. An engine that requires you to work the gearbox is just what you want with a manual and I am very happy that they tuned it this way.

I just wished more people felt the same and didn't down them for encouraging engagement. Plus, we know that they could give the car a really flat torque curve since they did it with the G80 - I doubt this route was chosen for pure engineering reasons.

-Nick

Damn y’all giving it to Game like he’s THT. One deserved it, the other is a gentleman and scholar.

I thought this was a safe space?

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by npirnia

I also wonder if part of why the ZF8 "wakes up the car" so much is because it has a different torque curve and actually makes more low end torque. With the 6MT, this might be BMW's attempt to recapture some of the engagement offered by their beloved NA engines like the S54. An engine that requires you to work the gearbox is just what you want with a manual and I am very happy that they tuned it this way.

An interesting theory, and mechanically possible, but I don't think so. If only because the 0-60 times aren't too far apart. I think you'd see more than 0.2s if they were outputting different torque numbers. I could be wrong, it could be traction limited.

Alas, unless we get dynos of low gears (problematic), or a head-to-head quarter mile, I don't know how we'd prove or disprove it.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by cmgbk75

Damn y’all giving it to Game like he’s THT. One deserved it, the other is a gentleman and scholar.

I thought this was a safe space?

It's tough love, but done with respect.

[sacowich]

Originally Posted by cmgbk75

Get a motorcycle, they let you do it.

Never riden a bike, but I’ve been curious recently. Recommendations for starter?
RnineT?

[npirnia]

Originally Posted by Squidget

An interesting theory, and mechanically possible, but I don't think so. If only because the 0-60 times aren't too far apart. I think you'd see more than 0.2s if they were outputting different torque numbers. I could be wrong, it could be traction limited.

Alas, unless we get dynos of low gears (problematic), or a head-to-head quarter mile, I don't know how we'd prove or disprove it.

I don't thin there is a good way to prove it and it isn't that relevant anyway.

When Car and Driver tested both the manual and auto, the delta to 60 was 0.4 and it increased to 0.5 and 4 mph by the quarter mile. But that is a typical difference between a manual and auto.

Plus, such a tuning difference would have almost no difference for straight-line acceleration since it would only modestly effect acceleration below 25 or 30 mph (where the car is probably traction limited). Big real world impacts, but no significant performance changes.

Anyway, not worth thinking about, but I think too much about these things.

-Nick

[mtoosexy]

Originally Posted by Game

I think the point is that there shouldn't have to be a "right gear".

In a car with 450 horsepower, it should pull harder in third at 2k RPM. I'm coming from a supercharged V6 (6mt) with roughly the same power and that was a bit snappier. That being said, naturally this is going to be an adjustment...and one that I'm sure I'll enjoy.

Side note: I also haven't put the engine in "sport plus" just yet.

GAme, this isn't in direct response to you, but more towards the topic :P
I've been driving a manual since I learned to drive (i know, not as long as some people here, but still) ... I can say with honesty and confidence that NOT ONE TIME EVER have I smashed the gas and not been in the gear I intended/needed to be in. I don't know how this happens in the real world.
When I pass a car or anticipate a speed increase, I blip, downshift and go... perhaps I am so attuned to manual cars that this has never come up.
I'm coming from a naturally aspirated V8 manual, but I've driven turbos, super chargers, German cars, Japanese cars, exotics, 60's muscle cars, etc...As a kid, I raced dirt bikes, rode 4wheelers, i had a crotch-rocket after college. I suppose I learned to listen and feel the RPM's.
Tall gears should be the complaint, similar to the GT4, Im a fan of shifting... more often the better!!!
carry on
hope you enjoy the car. Im guessing i will see you out and about sometime.

[Game]

Originally Posted by cmgbk75

Damn y’all giving it to Game like he’s THT. One deserved it, the other is a gentleman and scholar.

I thought this was a safe space?

Nah I’m glad we have some knowledgeable members here that can enlighten and stay respectful. After all, that’s what these forums are for…to learn.

I’m happy to be wrong on this one.

Originally Posted by npirnia

Sorry for my snarky response.

The negativity around low end torque is a pet-peeve of mine. Part of the fun of driving different cars is that they have different characteristics and require different techniques to drive well. When we insist on having "power everywhere" it rules out a lot of different engine types and power bands.

While the transition from high-revving NA motors to turbos is likely about emissions mostly, it is also true that the E90 generation of M3 was the worst selling of them all (except the first of course). I can't help but wonder if the mismatch between expectations of a "414 bhp V8" and the reality of the engine's performance at the bottom of the tach played at least some role. Perhaps this is why the F generation had such explosive low end torque?

I also wonder if part of why the ZF8 "wakes up the car" so much is because it has a different torque curve and actually makes more low end torque. With the 6MT, this might be BMW's attempt to recapture some of the engagement offered by their beloved NA engines like the S54. An engine that requires you to work the gearbox is just what you want with a manual and I am very happy that they tuned it this way.

I just wished more people felt the same and didn't down them for encouraging engagement. Plus, we know that they could give the car a really flat torque curve since they did it with the G80 - I doubt this route was chosen for pure engineering reasons.

-Nick

Nick, I didn’t take your previous comment as snarky at all. I’ve enjoyed all your posts in this thread.

Interesting comparison with the S54, I think one of the most beloved BMW motors by the enthusiasts. If only we got the same sound…

[Game]

Originally Posted by M2siast

I’ve been holding back here because I am still mad at Game for not setting up his Digital Key, while coming here nonchalantly talking about putting miles in his car. Lol

LOL

Tried it the other day, didn’t work. The loading stage in the app didn’t progress. Oh well.