[Paco1M]

Originally Posted by fcman

Whatever helps you cope I guess. I love how these discussions always turn out the exact same way. By some miracle the car you have is always the exact limit to how heavy a car can be. Anything heavier is just too heavy and anything lighter isn’t a big deal 🤣

Unfortunately you‘re wrong. My car is still too Heavy with 1463kg. So I reduced the weight about 80kg‘s.
But we can be glad that BMW‘s work Really well for their weight.

By some miracle how much weight have you Saved at your G87? 🤣

[Paco1M]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Were you the guy that said that the M2 has a 420 pound backup camera?

Maybe I will be if the Next M2 - 2door Baby ///M - hits 4400lbs ..
you guys don‘t know what politics Brands like BMW are doing in Germany.
Anyway let‘s just wait for a 2000kg M2 and a 3000kg M5 to save the world 🤣

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Paco1M

Unfortunately you‘re wrong. My car is still too Heavy with 1463kg. So I reduced the weight about 80kg‘s.
But we can be glad that BMW‘s work Really well for their weight.

By some miracle how much weight have you Saved at your G87? 🤣

The E82 was a bit of low point in BMW quality from a cabin perspective (having owned a 135i for 8 years, together with E46, E90, E85, F22 and G87), the closest BMW has got to econo-car plastics. It is worth just stripping out the interior completely to reduce weight.

In reality, other than steering feel, the 1M hasn’t got anything I can think of that the G87 hasn’t improved considerably on from a dynamics perspective, the E82 was a bit of an old chassis technology wise when the 1M was introduced, you can certainly tell how far the CLAR based cars have evolved since then.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Paco1M

Unfortunately you‘re wrong. My car is still too Heavy with 1463kg. So I reduced the weight about 80kg‘s.
But we can be glad that BMW‘s work Really well for their weight.

By some miracle how much weight have you Saved at your G87? ��

I haven't saved any, but even at full weight the G87 is a significantly better performance car than the E82. I imagine you removed the rear seats, so basically you're now competing with 2 seater sports cars instead of the G87. And I wouldn't take a 1M over any 2 seater other than maybe a Z4. Sounds more like you just bought the wrong car if you want a lightweight 2 seater

[VIERsr]

Regardless of looks, interior, technology, quality and so on, having had or driven them all, I would say that the best baby M we have ever had is probably the M2 CS F87, although the S58 is a better engine and the CLAR a better platform, in terms of pure dynamics the peak was reached with the CS package in my opinion. Although I consider the G87 a better car overall.
I'm not sure the M2 CS G87 will be able to match that finesse, especially if it will only be AT and 4WD, although it will certainly be much faster.

[Paco1M]

Originally Posted by aerobod

In reality, other than steering feel, the 1M hasn’t got anything I can think of that the G87 hasn’t improved considerably on from a dynamics perspective, the E82 was a bit of an old chassis technology wise when the 1M was introduced, you can certainly tell how far the CLAR based cars have evolved since then.

And it‘s a comparison between a 50k and 90k car.. two generations between them.. would be sad if the car wouldn‘t perform much better.
IMO better Performance isn‘t Always more fun. I have also driven F87‘s, F82‘s, E92‘s, E46 and the e chassis Cars are more fun to me even if F/G Models are faster.
A Tesla is also faster than a 1M but is it more fun? Obviously Not.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Paco1M

And it‘s a comparison between a 50k and 90k car.. two generations between them.. would be sad if the car wouldn‘t perform much better.
IMO better Performance isn‘t Always more fun. I have also driven F87‘s, F82‘s, E92‘s, E46 and the e chassis Cars are more fun to me even if F/G Models are faster.
A Tesla is also faster than a 1M but is it more fun? Obviously Not.

In Canada the 1M MSRP was $53,600 in 2011, in 2023 the G87 MSRP was $76,500 with a lot more standard equipment. Inflation from 2011 to 2023 was 131.43%, leading to the 1M adjusted MSRP of $70,446. There is certainly a lot more than $6,000 worth of added features in the G87 over the pretty basic 1M spec, besides the significantly better quality interior and better fit and finish (especially around the much tighter shut lines). G87 looks like a much better value product.

From a fun perspective, I don’t see much difference, the G87 is more precise and grippy with better brakes and engine that allows it to go harder and more precisely, more Porsche like precision instrument than the tail happy 1M that has lower grip and less precise pointability, but can give an “I survived that” adrenaline rush, like the E85 Z4M which also had exhausted the prior chassis technology development that was only mildly changed from the E36.

In 2013 I looked at the 1M, Boxster, Cayman, Elise and Exige to replace my Z4M, but decided steering feel for them was good but not excellent and they were becoming too isolated and heavy. Bought the Caterham R400 instead that has a significantly higher feel and fun factor than the others, about the same distance from them as they are from a minivan. Sometimes one car can’t meet all needs, the requirements are just too diverse.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by M2siast

We're missing your point. What are you really trying to convey here?

I think he gave up grasping at straws trying to find an objective reason why the 1m is better and has now decided to go with the tried and true “it’s better because it’s worse” approach

[Paco1M]

Originally Posted by M2siast

1M when new in 2011:
$47,010

M2 new in 2024:
$63,200

https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inf...1?amount=47000
$47,000 in 2011 is worth $64,311.14 today

The 1M was more expensive than the M2.

The 1M was not "acclaimed" as a good car when launched. It did not have an M engine. It was called (rightfully) a "parts bin car". Yada yada yada...

We're missing your point. What are you really trying to convey here?

In Germany it‘s 51k to 76k (no options).
My point?
It‘s sad that Nobody at BMW does what their spirit was years ago. These Cars are more a mass product than ever before.
They saved 110kg at the E46 CSL and only 100kg‘s at the G82 CSL. In relation it should be much more.

And yes the G87 Maybe is the better car if you want an easy to Drive powerful RWD car (Automatic for people who are Overwhelmed with three Pedals) with Bad Feedback from the Electric steering.

And how should the 1M be a Really good ///M without being planned until Summer 2009. There was no 5 year Development period for these Cars. First customer Cars came two years later.

[VIERsr]

Originally Posted by Paco1M

And how should the 1M be a Really good ///M without being planned until Summer 2009. There was no 5 year Development period for these Cars. First customer Cars came two years later.

Exactly, I also had this impression with the 1M, a car made in a hurry without proper engineering by taking parts here and there that they already had at home, which led to a rather poor result.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by Paco1M

And yes the G87 Maybe is the better car if you want an easy to Drive powerful RWD car (Automatic for people who are Overwhelmed with three Pedals) with Bad Feedback from the Electric steering.

That's just code for "if you want a car that steers better, corners better, goes faster, brakes better, handles bumps better, overheats slower, fades less, and is better on every other objective performance metric there is."

The 1M is great at being a rollercoaster-fun house thrill ride. It's not actually so great at doing well on a track or even an advanced road course.

It just depends on what kind of "sports car" you want. But for me it's irrelevant as there's no way in hell I'm buying an 11 year old car today for $45K+.

[Paco1M]

Originally Posted by Squidget

That's just code for "if you want a car that steers better, corners better, goes faster, brakes better, handles bumps better, overheats slower, fades less, and is better on every other objective performance metric there is."

The 1M is great at being a rollercoaster-fun house thrill ride. It's not actually so great at doing well on a track or even an advanced road course.

It just depends on what kind of "sports car" you want. But for me it's irrelevant as there's no way in hell I'm buying an 11 year old car today for $45K+.

But there's a reason why these cars are at that price level.
And I agree with you; stock is the car not doing really well but only coilovers make it much better.
I would never drive my 1M stock cause it's so much better atm.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by Paco1M

But there's a reason why these cars are at that price level.

Sure, but that reason has little to do with its performance. The M3 from the same year is a better performer, objectively speaking.

The 1M is costly because it's a low volume, quirky, one-year build of cobbled parts and gusto. It's got a good story, and in collectables, story is king.

But would I buy a 1M over an equivalently priced used Porsche if I wanted to track it? Might be able to snag a decent 2016 981 Cayman for that money.

Don't get me wrong, if the 1M is your spirit animal (a feral badger I'd say), then great! Enjoy it! But probably for most people, it's not worth the money.

And I agree it would be great if more car companies made quirky sports cars, but other than Toyota's Murizos, not a lot of options.

I'm just glad in the year 2023 BMW gave me an 6MT RWD with a real M motor!

[Paco1M]

Originally Posted by Squidget

Sure, but that reason has little to do with its performance. The M3 from the same year is a better performer, objectively speaking.

The 1M is costly because it's a low volume, quirky, one-year build of cobbled parts and gusto. It's got a good story, and in collectables, story is king.

But would I buy a 1M over an equivalently priced used Porsche if I wanted to track it? Might be able to snag a decent 2016 981 Cayman for that money.

Don't get me wrong, if the 1M is your spirit animal (a feral badger I'd say), then great! Enjoy it! But probably for most people, it's not worth the money.

And I agree it would be great if more car companies made quirky sports cars, but other than Toyota's Murizos, not a lot of options.

I'm just glad in the year 2023 BMW gave me an 6MT RWD with a real M motor!

What does it make a "real M Motor"? That it's called S?
In fact it's just a 3.0 I6 Turbo engine, just as S55, B58, N55, N54.
You can find 6 cylinder turbos anywhere..

Far away from a high reving N/A S65 or S54. IMO the time of real ///M engines has gone. No other brand built engines like that. That made em special.


I surely understand why most people get a F87, 981 cayman, etc.
They "perform" better out of the box. But better sometimes is boring.
For example a 992 GT3 RS is way better than 991/997 GT3 RS but for me 997 GT3 RS is the best way to go. Same at R35 GT-R and R34 GT-R..

[VIERsr]

Originally Posted by Paco1M

What does it make a "real M Motor"? That it's called S?
In fact it's just a 3.0 I6 Turbo engine, just as S55, B58, N55, N54.
You can find 6 cylinder turbos anywhere..

Yes, and they all have four wheels. Just like the Twingo. Can we therefore assume that there is no difference between a Twingo and an M2?

You only have to look at the way the engines deliver power, handle heat and are built (closed deck construction, forged parts, lubrication, cooling) to realise that the 'S' is not just a badge. Just as the engine of a Carrera S was different from that of a GT3 (in the N/A era).
The N54 was a good engine for a family saloon (335i), but totally inadequate for an M car. The same applies to the N55, albeit slightly better.

[Paco1M]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

Yes, and they all have four wheels. Just like the Twingo. Can we therefore assume that there is no difference between a Twingo and an M2?

Of course, the twingo and M2 F87 have no "S-engine" at all (apart from compectition and cs).

[aerobod]

The N54 can’t be considered an ///M motor at all and BMW never said it was. Our tuned N54B30 demonstrated the fragility that the N55 removed to some degree, the N54 always seemed to be a bit of a beta release. Excessive oil consumption under hard use through the turbos bearings due to higher than stock boost, failed injectors, turbo lag considering it was a relatively low boost engine, cooling system inadequate under hard use. We had these issues, but luckily not the fairly common HPFP failure (although it did get a new one under the BMW recall campaign).

[Albator_IIII]

Originally Posted by aerobod

The N54 can’t be considered an ///M motor at all and BMW never said it was. Our tuned N54B30 demonstrated the fragility that the N55 removed to some degree, the N54 always seemed to be a bit of a beta release. Excessive oil consumption under hard use through the turbos bearings due to higher than stock boost, failed injectors, turbo lag considering it was a relatively low boost engine, cooling system inadequate under hard use. We had these issues, but luckily not the fairly common HPFP failure (although it did get a new one under the BMW recall campaign).

Knock on wood, my 335i only had a turbo hose leak which was a quick fix (symptoms was car going into limp mode when pushed). It is has otherwise been rock solid since 2008.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by Albator_IIII

Knock on wood, my 335i only had a turbo hose leak which was a quick fix (symptoms was car going into limp mode when pushed). It is has otherwise been rock solid since 2008.

My first N55 went through two HPFPs and one LPFP, and then threw a rod despite frequent oil changes. The replacement N55 has been rock solid, yay!

Also FWIW, Team PHd just released a video where they did a bunch of laps on a 80 degree day, and the G87's oil and water temps stayed low the whole time.

I think that's notable because he implicitly is comparing it to his previous car, the Supra with a B58. The extra support cooling that BMW adds to S motors makes a difference. Limp mode suuucks.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

The N54 was a good engine for a family saloon (335i), but totally inadequate for an M car. The same applies to the N55, albeit slightly better.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I don't think the N55 was measurably better as an "M" engine than the N54 was.

The N55's stock single turbo, dual scroll or not, really limited the top end boost. The N55 totally gassed out at the high end. At least when I stopped paying attention, the N55 was harder to tune up. People could push the N54 further, even though it carried more risk. Did that change over time?

[VIERsr]

Originally Posted by Squidget

I'm not sure I agree with that. I don't think the N55 was measurably better as an "M" engine than the N54 was.

The N55's stock single turbo, dual scroll or not, really limited the top end boost. The N55 totally gassed out at the high end. At least when I stopped paying attention, the N55 was harder to tune up. People could push the N54 further, even though it carried more risk. Did that change over time?

Base versus base (306 hp versus 306 hp) I agree, there wasn't much difference between the two. But the M2's N55, in my opinion, was slightly better than the 1M's N54, less explosive down low but also less dead at the top, though still not enough for an M car and still with the same heat management limitations.
The B58 is so much better that it was awkward that the M240i had a better engine than the M2, a problem later solved with the M2 Competition.

[Paco1M]

Originally Posted by Squidget

Sure, but that reason has little to do with its performance. The M3 from the same year is a better performer, objectively speaking.

But would I buy a 1M over an equivalently priced used Porsche if I wanted to track it? Might be able to snag a decent 2016 981 Cayman for that money.

Don't get me wrong, if the 1M is your spirit animal (a feral badger I'd say), then great! Enjoy it! But probably for most people, it's not worth the money.

Is the M3 the better performer?
At Hockenheim the 1M was faster than M3 E92, TT RS, 987 Cayman S (MT).. And the M3 has 80hp more (on the paper)..

I can comprehend nobody want's to pay a high price for these cars in an objectively consideration. Small car, unreliable N54 engine, difficult to drive fast.
On the other hand i never had a car which is well received like this one. Anywhere you go you get thumbs up from so many people. The appearance of this car is pretty unique - Many people do not even know the "hulk" of the E82. It looks like a built car but it's stock..