[Tuxedo]

When was the last time you drove a new car stepping out of it said well it's not that fast and would have better power in a manual, doesn't happen anymore does it? but 20yrs ago it did.

20yrs ago most cars would have 4spd automatic and 5spd manual that 1more gear costs $600-2500 less making resale or ability aside an MT no brainer.

Now walk into a BMW dealer 6spd manual w/1 clutch and 8spd automatic costs the same on top of that the automatic is faster and smoother then the MT unless you buy $2500 7spd 2 clutch auto with computer launch control to snip .3 sec off 0-60.

If you buy a car for 4 wheels and running motor a Automatic is now the no brainer. If you buy as a autox, track or collectors piece it's a matter of decision. Now as a salesman who has to sell the MT faithful on this idea the dodo bird is the car they used to drive vs the car they will drive they understand but don't like it. Very few dealers stock a MT except M's.
Locate results for data this doesn't include sold orders or sold and delivered cars. Just the US Market
20MY 2-series M2 excluded- 41
20MY 4-Series M4 excluded- 45
I conclude only about 7% or less of dealer inventory is MT will be/right now. You want a MT the writing is on the wall, next gen 4-series is on the horizon and probably automatic only.
Next gen 2-series fwd/awd/rwd might have manual but... dodo bird!

[10"]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

If the ZF8 is a great automatic, I'm glad I still only buy manuals. To be fair my experience with it was a horrible F30, so maybe there are better applications.

Exactly....it's pretty garbage

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by 10"

Exactly....it's pretty garbage

I also call shenanigans on autos being more efficient in the real world vs EPA window sticker ratings. My better half has had two ZF6 speed autos, a ZF8 speed and now a 7s DSG. She routinely gets 4-6 mpg less than the window sticker and I routinely beat my manual window sticker ratings by 2-3 mpg.

So even apples to apples, I'd likely see real world numbers still equal or close to what an auto would post. Now let's caveat this with the simple fact that both my wife and don't baby our cars and hers are nearly always in Sport+ so at least one gear isn't invited to the party. The point is, none of us are likely driving around like EPA testers so using their bs "more efficient" rating isn't really valid.

[P1]

Excellent topic. Since we're at it, we need to also explore why drum brakes and manual windows are a drying breed! I can't find a single new car that still offers that. Very annoying.

[Soterios]

Originally Posted by P1et

Excellent topic. Since we're at it, we need to also explore why drum brakes and manual windows are a drying breed! I can't find a single new car that still offers that. Very annoying.

Apples and Oranges for a lot of people.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by P1et

Excellent topic. Since we're at it, we need to also explore why drum brakes and manual windows are a drying breed! I can't find a single new car that still offers that. Very annoying.

You clearly haven't looked at Toyota. They've got drums for days.

My CRX Si was a blast, manual steering, crank windows and rear drums. I'd gladly buy another today.

I'm not antediluvian. I'd actually buy a fully autonomous car if it were available. But that's sort of like an automatic. If you want to take my fun away, just take all of it. Leave me a weekend car that I'm in control of and just drive my happy ass around the rest of the time.

[10"]

Originally Posted by P1et

Excellent topic. Since we're at it, we need to also explore why drum brakes and manual windows are a drying breed! I can't find a single new car that still offers that. Very annoying.

A dumb comparison; unless you know a lot of people who "enjoy" rolling down windows and enjoy the feeling of drum brakes.

I'm sure there are people in this world who do enjoy that; but a transmission is an entirely different league of importance in terms of driving experience. It is one of the primary interfaces for the driver to control the car. It matters every second of driving.

[P1]

Originally Posted by 10"

A dumb comparison; unless you know a lot of people who "enjoy" rolling down windows and enjoy the feeling of drum brakes.

I'm sure there are people in this world who do enjoy that; but a transmission is an entirely different league of importance in terms of driving experience. It is one of the primary interfaces for the driver to control the car. It matters every second of driving.

The brakes are a very important part of the driving experience also, let's not forget. Which is why I mentioned it.

[P1]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

You clearly haven't looked at Toyota. They've got drums for days.

My CRX Si was a blast, manual steering, crank windows and rear drums. I'd gladly buy another today.

I'm not antediluvian. I'd actually buy a fully autonomous car if it were available. But that's sort of like an automatic. If you want to take my fun away, just take all of it. Leave me a weekend car that I'm in control of and just drive my happy ass around the rest of the time.

That's what I'm talking about. If we are going to make a case for going analog, let's not just pick on the transmission but take it all the way. Your CRX Si is a perfect example of that.

[King Rudi]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

"what's a manual?"

The book in the glove box that no one looks at!

[10"]

Originally Posted by P1et

The brakes are a very important part of the driving experience also, let's not forget. Which is why I mentioned it.

They are important. Find me some people who are enthuasiasts of drum braking. I'll be waiting here...

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by 10"

They are important. Find me some people who are enthuasiasts of drum braking. I'll be waiting here...

They'll be hanging out with folks that love inboard discs.

[P1]

Originally Posted by 10"

They are important. Find me some people who are enthuasiasts of drum braking. I'll be waiting here...

You can just scroll up. Red Bread was just talking about his CRX.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by P1et

That's what I'm talking about. If we are going to make a case for going analog, let's not just pick on the transmission but take it all the way. Your CRX Si is a perfect example of that.

Meh, my GTI has cloth seats and a manual. It's 900 pounds heavier than my CRX, but also a wee bit safer.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by P1et

You can just scroll up. Red Bread was just talking about his CRX.

And yeah, on a 2200 pound car, with 60+ percent of the weight on the front, just give me some Flintstone holes in the floor to provide a little rear yaw control. Drums are fine, within reason.

Reminds me of people complaining about the sliding caliper rears on current M Cars. They're just fine for anything but cosmetics.

[Run Silent]

It makes me sad, but here I sit. I've owned 42 cars in my lifetime. Never owned an automatic.....until I bought a Ferrari. With an automatic. lol.

I would have preferred the manual, but it was simply out of budget and even if I could make it work financially, it wasn't worth the 20% premium price tag.

Here is how I see it:

1) A manual transmission can make a decent car great.
2) A good auto or dct doesn't usually make a great car decent.

Case in point? Would I rather have a manual transmission Ferrari or other exotic or hyper car? Sure. But even with the the single clutch F1, the Ferrari is a great drivers car. How about my MINI? That car is a decent car. The 6MT makes it great - much better than with an automatic.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Run Silent

It makes me sad, but here I sit. I've owned 42 cars in my lifetime. Never owned an automatic.....until I bought a Ferrari. With an automatic. lol.

I would have preferred the manual, but it was simply out of budget and even if I could make it work financially, it wasn't worth the 20% premium price tag.

Here is how I see it:

1) A manual transmission can make a decent car great.
2) A good auto or dct doesn't usually make a great car decent.

Case in point? Would I rather have a manual transmission Ferrari or other exotic or hyper car? Sure. But even with the the single clutch F1, the Ferrari is a great drivers car. How about my MINI? That car is a decent car. The 6MT makes it great - much better than with an automatic.

I do think there's a case of diminishing returns that sorts of inverts itself as the car gets faster. It's sort of a given that if outright speed is the ultimate goal, a dual clutch is your huckleberry.

This probably explains why M is going all ZF8. Snicker.

[yco]

if there d be 60% less traffic around the world i d go with manual.. but its a fantasy and city traffic ll be a time and energy sucking thing rest of our lives it seems.. i drove manuals more than autos since i got a driving license and for me the key thing to enjoy driving is a bit over powered RWD car.. not clutch.. and real petrol heads are so obvious on track that has no connection with making wrong heel and toes etc. that can be seen youtube pretty often.. that called themselves petrol heads etc..

as i ve said before.. 90-95% of people who keen on manuals learnt driving with autos and spent most of their life with autos also.. and its funny really..

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by yco

if there d be 60% less traffic around the world i d go with manual.. but its a fantasy and city traffic ll be a time and energy sucking thing rest of our lives it seems.. i drove manuals more than autos since i got a driving license and for me the key thing to enjoy driving is a bit over powered RWD car.. not clutch.. and real petrol heads are so obvious on track that has no connection with making wrong heel and toes etc. that can be seen youtube pretty often.. that called themselves petrol heads etc..

as i ve said before.. 90-95% of people who keen on manuals learnt driving with autos and spent most of their life with autos also.. and its funny really..

My wife makes fun of the way I drive an automatic. I hate not having the flywheel effect of a manual and tend to initially ride up on slowing cars, then leave huge gaps between us. I also never seem to get the throttle tip in right since my left foot is just taking a nap.

I've lived and driven in LA, DFW, London and Frankfurt and don't know that I buy the traffic argument, but then I suppose I've just never lived somewhere without heavy traffic.

[Run Silent]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

My wife makes fun of the way I drive an automatic. I hate not having the flywheel effect of a manual and tend to initially ride up on slowing cars, then leave huge gaps between us. I also never seem to get the throttle tip in right since my left foot is just taking a nap.

I've lived and driven in LA, DFW, London and Frankfurt and don't know that I buy the traffic argument, but then I suppose I've just never lived somewhere without heavy traffic.

^This.

In reality - I've never really owned an automatic - the F-Car is an F1 automated manual.

Semantics, I know, but still.

Regardless, after 40+ cars and every one having a clutch but one, I agree. Is it more annoying to drive a manual in traffic than an auto? Perhaps, but that isn't the only time I drive a car. I've lived in several large towns, some with traffic problems listed as the worst in the world, yet I still enjoyed all my manual cars. I live in a rural area now, but it's very mountainous, so a manual can be tricky sometimes on the hills - especially in snow - but still I drive them.

Why? To me - it's worth it.

[Red Bread]

I've driven a few F1 355's and 360's and the nature of that single clutch is certainly as close to a three pedal car as any flappy paddle I've driven. Our current DSG is no where near as engaging as those. To be fair, it's in a four cylinder Audi, not a 5V V8 Fezza, but...

[Run Silent]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I've driven a few F1 355's and 360's and the nature of that single clutch is certainly as close to a three pedal car as any flappy paddle I've driven. Our current DSG is no where near as engaging as those. To be fair, it's in a four cylinder Audi, not a 5V V8 Fezza, but...

Yes - but also to be fair - there is a difference between an automated manual transmission in an "event car" versus a daily driver. I never drive the 360 in auto mode. If I did daily drive it, I am sure it would remain in auto, as it is actually quite cumbersome to drive as compared to a proper manual. I've driven GTi's as rental cars, and never bothered to drive the car like a manual with the flappy paddles. It just seemed a bit crass to do so.

All that being said, however, a DCT still trumps a slushbox anyday in my opinion. Even if only driving it like an auto, it still has more of a 'feel' than a proper auto, which I just find dreadful.