[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

He has a user handle named after A VWAG product (and a terrible one at that) and lives in Cali. You can safely ignore everything he says.

says a dude in Florida who drives a 2 series

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

says a dude in Florida who drives a 2 series

You California peeps sure do have fragile egos. I almost feel bad for y'all.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

He has a user handle named after A VWAG product (and a terrible one at that) and lives in Cali. You can safely ignore everything he says.

Free speech; I embrace it. Socal R8 seems like a rational and educated man. He's good with me. Calling people "EV Haters" is a bit silly, though.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

You California peeps sure do have fragile egos. I almost feel bad for y'all.

The Dude drove an NSX for some 20 years. He's not all bad.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The Dude drove an NSX for some 20 years. He's not all bad.

Unpopular opinion... The NSX is overrated. In its time, it was neat, and it was a great product as a like Acura brand booster". But people go nuts over them and I just don't think they're that amazing.

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Unpopular opinion... The NSX is overrated. In its time, it was neat, and it was a great product as a like Acura brand booster". But people go nuts over them and I just don't think they're that amazing.

https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/te...ion-or-heresy/
.

.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/te...ion-or-heresy/
.

.

Now we need to burn this whole thread.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by x622

Wait is this the EV thread? I thought it was deleted.

The same ass-clowns are posting to another one, with the same denialism of reality, with a twinge of anarchism.

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

It is no use trying to talk sense to people who have no clue becuse they have no real world experience with EV's....or what it is like to spend $80 every time you fill up on gas like the millions of drivers do daily ... Those people just don't get it and never will

It's a bit of that, and a lot more of sh*tposting.
Give it time, and you will see 4chan memes and conspiracy content start creeping in...

a

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/te...ion-or-heresy/
.

.

I do believe that can only be Porsche Guards Red color.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I still don't buy this idea that unless one has real world experience owning an EV they don't "get" the idea of EV. What is not to understand? One either plugs in at home to charge the car when it is parked and gets near the max range of the battery, or they charge the car on the public network and follow the protocol of good charging manners and only charge to 80% battery capacity to not hog the charger to get the last 20% at the much slower part of the charge curve. The math is not difficult to process as to the wait times of charging using the public network, or most manufacturers state the max rate of recovery in the terms of miles and minutes. One can use such metrics to determine if an EV will fit their use case.

You keep pointing out that people like me who do a deep analysis of EV ownership before they buy one are EV haters if they post in an internet forum their findings. I always look at any car purchase from a lifecycle economic standpoint, I've not yet found one that offers a significant lifecycle cost savings that would justify the lifestyle change (from ICEV) needed to adjust to the recharge and range attributes of EV. I still see range and recharge requirements (across a four-seasons use case) as a roadblock to adoption of the technology. I think most of the market sees it the same way.

My deep dive into understanding the EV ownership experience comes from reviewing the information from real owners of the Mustang Mach E forum. Leaving out the complaints of questionable quality issues of the Mach E and just focusing on the range and recharging on the public network, it appears to be a complete PITA. One needs several different navigation apps, charge network apps, and hand calculations for remaining range based on battery SOC. Fine for people who like to use apps and "tech" and constantly recalc range estimates, but I'm not one of those people. With ICEV I don't need to do any of that shit. Anywhere I go there is a gas station. I can pay with cash or card. It works at 99.999% flawlessness. I see no reason to change. I think the market see it that way too.

I'm not here to change your mind nor am I here to flex has there are people with X7's more expensive than all my cars combined. You are absolutely correct in saying that EV's do NOT work for a big part of the population. People that can't charge at home, have a long commute, use it as an only car ect.... should NOT get an EV. But at the same time, I don't think EV's are as niche as you think.

I'm only stating my personal case, but I have these cars pictured below (minus the M2C which is sold), my GF's VW Tiguan which we could use on long trips if need be and a 330e which is the car I'd consider switching to an EV.


What other ICE car would actually complement these cars? Another M? A GT3? These would just sit and only get driven once a week at most. The 330e was a test and it passed beautifully (for my use case). I wasn't ready to jump into full EV's, but I was very impressed that I was able to achieve 60% EV in 2024 with multiple long road trips that were in ICE mode. This is over 12k miles in a year.

Why do I think some of these newer EV's make sense?
1) Some of them are within reason for me. No interest in $100k+ Taycans, but $40-50k? Could be interesting, whether that's a new car like this one, or used and assuming they have warranty.
2) My commute is 12 miles each way and that's primarily what I'd use the EV car for. Range anxiety would not be a problem in this case. I could also charge at home.
3) Duke energy currently has an offer where they would credit you $1100 for install cost at your house. My friends have installed level 2 chargers at home for under $2k in this area.

Again, I'm not saying this works for everyone, but I would also say I'm not the only multi car owner that can charge at home, can afford more than a $25k DD.

Lastly, I do think it's important for someone to experience an EV first before trying to make statements, because at this point, you guys are only focusing on the negative as far as I can tell. Some things I've enjoyed in the 330e in no particular order:

1) Instant heat from the touch of a button. Fun fact: it's been around ~20F in SC the past few weeks, and my M4 GTS didn't reach full oil operating temp until I pulled in to my work parking lot. Never have to care about short trips to where I run or do grocery store, which is all within 2 mi from the house. Almost 500hp and I didn't use more than 200hp due to mechanical sympathy.
2) A quiet environment is awesome after a long day at work. I'm all about my E92 V8 with a catless Eisenmann race exhaust system. Maybe I'm getting old.
3) Smooth drivetrain. Absolutely no one talks about this. Even compared to a 2024 740i I had for a weekend, my 330e takes off from a red light smoother and when the ICE starts, it's a smooth transition.
4) Cost: 330e vs comparable 330i, the PHEV is almost same price but cost of running is dirt cheap. The 330e only raises electric bill ~$30 a month, but I've gone up to 6 weeks without filling up the gas tank which only takes 8 gallons.

Not here to convince anyone to move on from their ICE nor am I here saying EV's are for all. But I completely agree with OP saying this Renault is the type of EV I'd like to see more of.

P.S. My experience with EV's is my friend's Taycan:
[/url]

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by afadeev

The same ass-clowns are posting to another one, with the same denialism of reality, with a twinge of anarchism.




It's a bit of that, and a lot more of sh*tposting.
Give it time, and you will see 4chan memes and conspiracy content start creeping in...

a

I'm just here for the Youtube videos with thumbnails of people who look like they are in major gastrointestinal distress.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by W///

I'm not here to change your mind nor am I here to flex has there are people with X7's more expensive than all my cars combined. You are absolutely correct in saying that EV's do NOT work for a big part of the population. People that can't charge at home, have a long commute, use it as an only car ect.... should NOT get an EV. But at the same time, I don't think EV's are as niche as you think.

I'm only stating my personal case, but I have these cars pictured below (minus the M2C which is sold), my GF's VW Tiguan which we could use on long trips if need be and a 330e which is the car I'd consider switching to an EV.


What other ICE car would actually complement these cars? Another M? A GT3? These would just sit and only get driven once a week at most. The 330e was a test and it passed beautifully (for my use case). I wasn't ready to jump into full EV's, but I was very impressed that I was able to achieve 60% EV in 2024 with multiple long road trips that were in ICE mode. This is over 12k miles in a year.

Why do I think some of these newer EV's make sense?
1) Some of them are within reason for me. No interest in $100k+ Taycans, but $40-50k? Could be interesting, whether that's a new car like this one, or used and assuming they have warranty.
2) My commute is 12 miles each way and that's primarily what I'd use the EV car for. Range anxiety would not be a problem in this case. I could also charge at home.
3) Duke energy currently has an offer where they would credit you $1100 for install cost at your house. My friends have installed level 2 chargers at home for under $2k in this area.

Again, I'm not saying this works for everyone, but I would also say I'm not the only multi car owner that can charge at home, can afford more than a $25k DD.

Lastly, I do think it's important for someone to experience an EV first before trying to make statements, because at this point, you guys are only focusing on the negative as far as I can tell. Some things I've enjoyed in the 330e in no particular order:

1) Instant heat from the touch of a button. Fun fact: it's been around ~20F in SC the past few weeks, and my M4 GTS didn't reach full oil operating temp until I pulled in to my work parking lot. Never have to care about short trips to where I run or do grocery store, which is all within 2 mi from the house. Almost 500hp and I didn't use more than 200hp due to mechanical sympathy.
2) A quiet environment is awesome after a long day at work. I'm all about my E92 V8 with a catless Eisenmann race exhaust system. Maybe I'm getting old.
3) Smooth drivetrain. Absolutely no one talks about this. Even compared to a 2024 740i I had for a weekend, my 330e takes off from a red light smoother and when the ICE starts, it's a smooth transition.
4) Cost: 330e vs comparable 330i, the PHEV is almost same price but cost of running is dirt cheap. The 330e only raises electric bill ~$30 a month, but I've gone up to 6 weeks without filling up the gas tank which only takes 8 gallons.

Not here to convince anyone to move on from their ICE nor am I here saying EV's are for all. But I completely agree with OP saying this Renault is the type of EV I'd like to see more of.

P.S. My experience with EV's is my friend's Taycan:
[/url]

I have a similar commute, mine is only 10 miles each way. I could easily use a PHEV or EV for my car, but because I drove so little, the ROI on the PHEV or EV is like, forever. The price delta of a regular gas car vs a PHEV, let alone a full EV just makes it virtually impossible to make an ROI, especially when I'm spending like $3 a day on gas. If i paid $1500 to have a charger installed that's almost 2 years for just the charger. Some people might get government or utility money for it, but not here.

Some people want to spend more to have the new tech. I don't care about that. If the new tech is based on not using fuel, it needs to pay for itself. Something like the new M5 that happens to be a PHEV but really it's intended to make the car faster, I could see a point to. I might not ever have an ROI on the PHEV aspect of it, but the PHEV part is just a bonus on the rest of the car.

330e was a total steal. The PHEV Lexus TX is like $10k more than the equivalent gas one. If manufacturers prices their PHEVs at a price parity with a gas car it'd be a no brainer for most buyers, and would reduce a ton of greenhouse gases of that's what we actually care about. But that's not what most of the market is doing, and they're not doing PHEVs of family SUVs that could have the most impact. We're there a PHEV x7 available, I'd have bought one for the wife.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by W///

I'm not here to change your mind nor am I here to flex has there are people with X7's more expensive than all my cars combined. You are absolutely correct in saying that EV's do NOT work for a big part of the population. People that can't charge at home, have a long commute, use it as an only car ect.... should NOT get an EV. But at the same time, I don't think EV's are as niche as you think.

I'm only stating my personal case, but I have these cars pictured below (minus the M2C which is sold), my GF's VW Tiguan which we could use on long trips if need be and a 330e which is the car I'd consider switching to an EV.


What other ICE car would actually complement these cars? Another M? A GT3? These would just sit and only get driven once a week at most. The 330e was a test and it passed beautifully (for my use case). I wasn't ready to jump into full EV's, but I was very impressed that I was able to achieve 60% EV in 2024 with multiple long road trips that were in ICE mode. This is over 12k miles in a year.

Why do I think some of these newer EV's make sense?
1) Some of them are within reason for me. No interest in $100k+ Taycans, but $40-50k? Could be interesting, whether that's a new car like this one, or used and assuming they have warranty.
2) My commute is 12 miles each way and that's primarily what I'd use the EV car for. Range anxiety would not be a problem in this case. I could also charge at home.
3) Duke energy currently has an offer where they would credit you $1100 for install cost at your house. My friends have installed level 2 chargers at home for under $2k in this area.

Again, I'm not saying this works for everyone, but I would also say I'm not the only multi car owner that can charge at home, can afford more than a $25k DD.

Lastly, I do think it's important for someone to experience an EV first before trying to make statements, because at this point, you guys are only focusing on the negative as far as I can tell. Some things I've enjoyed in the 330e in no particular order:

1) Instant heat from the touch of a button. Fun fact: it's been around ~20F in SC the past few weeks, and my M4 GTS didn't reach full oil operating temp until I pulled in to my work parking lot. Never have to care about short trips to where I run or do grocery store, which is all within 2 mi from the house. Almost 500hp and I didn't use more than 200hp due to mechanical sympathy.
2) A quiet environment is awesome after a long day at work. I'm all about my E92 V8 with a catless Eisenmann race exhaust system. Maybe I'm getting old.
3) Smooth drivetrain. Absolutely no one talks about this. Even compared to a 2024 740i I had for a weekend, my 330e takes off from a red light smoother and when the ICE starts, it's a smooth transition.
4) Cost: 330e vs comparable 330i, the PHEV is almost same price but cost of running is dirt cheap. The 330e only raises electric bill ~$30 a month, but I've gone up to 6 weeks without filling up the gas tank which only takes 8 gallons.

Not here to convince anyone to move on from their ICE nor am I here saying EV's are for all. But I completely agree with OP saying this Renault is the type of EV I'd like to see more of.

P.S. My experience with EV's is my friend's Taycan:
[/url]

To be accurate, I'm not sure my mind needs changing. From a physics/thermodynamics standpoint EV make all the sense in the world. From a physics/chemistry standpoint 90kWh batteries make no sense to power EV. Yes, we are at the stage where 250 - 350 mile EV range is nearly affordable and great for local destinations and back most of the time. Obviously the US market wants faster over-the-road charging. Also, with EV electron dispensaries charging 45 to 55 cents per kW, EV are as expensive to refuel on the road as ICEV. It's a common observation/complaint on EV forums. Of course EV'ers think they are getting ripped off because their residential rate is 13 cents per kW. Most don't understand economics nor business. It just costs 50 cents a kW to provide a charger out on the road. So, one has to pay as much or more for fuel and has to wait 3x as long to get half the range back of a typical ICEV. AND the government has to chip in $7.5B to keep the EV public happy.

When someone provides a reason why paying more for less is good, and the market accepts that, then I'll will be in need of having my mind changed.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

https://www.carscoops.com/2023/07/te...ion-or-heresy/
.

.

To add balance to the universe....V8 powered Tesla Model S....dyno'd at 444HP to the wheels.

[AmuroRay]

Save money by buying an Overpriced EV instead of an actual commuter car.

Makes total sense /s

[Alfisti]

EV's tend to work in windows. If you do enough miles, can charge at home, have a predictable commute, ideally a second household vehicle and gas is on the pricier side, they make sense.

I have a mate in the UK and he saves $700 pounds a month with an EV including deprecation, he is an actuary so slightly good with numbers and hardly an environmental evangelist. He does do large miles though, very large.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

EV's tend to work in windows. If you do enough miles, can charge at home, have a predictable commute, ideally a second household vehicle and gas is on the pricier side, they make sense.

I have a mate in the UK and he saves $700 pounds a month with an EV including deprecation, he is an actuary so slightly good with numbers and hardly an environmental evangelist. He does do large miles though, very large.

If If if if -
Super circumstantial and will never recoup the costs of a regular basic commuter car.

[W///]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I have a similar commute, mine is only 10 miles each way. I could easily use a PHEV or EV for my car, but because I drove so little, the ROI on the PHEV or EV is like, forever. The price delta of a regular gas car vs a PHEV, let alone a full EV just makes it virtually impossible to make an ROI, especially when I'm spending like $3 a day on gas. If i paid $1500 to have a charger installed that's almost 2 years for just the charger. Some people might get government or utility money for it, but not here.

Some people want to spend more to have the new tech. I don't care about that. If the new tech is based on not using fuel, it needs to pay for itself. Something like the new M5 that happens to be a PHEV but really it's intended to make the car faster, I could see a point to. I might not ever have an ROI on the PHEV aspect of it, but the PHEV part is just a bonus on the rest of the car.

330e was a total steal. The PHEV Lexus TX is like $10k more than the equivalent gas one. If manufacturers prices their PHEVs at a price parity with a gas car it'd be a no brainer for most buyers, and would reduce a ton of greenhouse gases of that's what we actually care about. But that's not what most of the market is doing, and they're not doing PHEVs of family SUVs that could have the most impact. We're there a PHEV x7 available, I'd have bought one for the wife.

Totally get it, maybe EV's aren't for you and that's OK. I just think they make better DD's than any ICE for my case, but I know it's pretty specific. For me it doesn't have that much to do with $ ROI to be honest.

Btw, can't go wrong with an X5 M50. They're fantastic cars.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'm not sure my mind needs changing to accurate. From a physics/thermodynamics standpoint EV make all the sense in the world. From a physics/chemistry standpoint 90kWh batteries make no sense to power EV. Yes, we are at the stage where 250 - 350 mile EV range is nearly affordable and great for local destinations and back most of the time. Obviously the US market wants faster over-the-road charging. Also, with EV electron dispensaries charging 45 to 55 cents per kW, EV are as expensive to refuel on the road as ICEV. It's a common observation/complaint on EV forums. Of course EV'ers think they are getting ripped off because their residential rate is 13 cents per kW. Most don't understand economics nor business. It just costs 50 cents a kW to provide a charger out on the road. So, one has to pay as much or more for fuel and has to wait 3x as long to get half the range back of a typical ICEV. AND the government has to chip in $7.5B to keep the EV public happy.

When someone provides a reason why paying more for less is good, and the market accepts that, then I'll will be in need of having my mind changed.

Why are you bringing up public charging when replying to me? Again, I'm only speaking about what my use case would be and that doesn't entail public charging regularly. The funny thing is I don't even own an EV, just saying seeing a cheaper and interesting EV is way better than a 6 figure Cybertruck.

The only reason I brought up that you should at least experience EV's because to me, they're not just about saving on fuel costs and saving baby seals. There are genuine upsides. I remember you complaining about how auto trans including the 8ZF are too clunky and slow. Good news, EV's are smoother than any ICE you can imagine

For what it's worth, I completely agree that public charging is an annoyance and I would have 0 interest in road tripping in an EV. But as I mentioned, that's not what I'd use a Renault 5 for if they were available here.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

If If if if -
Super circumstantial and will never recoup the costs of a regular basic commuter car.

THat's what I said, windows, they work in windows. And yes, it is cheaper for him than a basic ICE commuter.

The real point here is EV's were pushed fwd as a replacement for ICE but in reality it will be part of the mix, just another option, which is what Toyota has been saying for a decade.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

THat's what I said, windows, they work in windows. And yes, it is cheaper for him than a basic ICE commuter.

The real point here is EV's were pushed fwd as a replacement for ICE but in reality it will be part of the mix, just another option, which is what Toyota has been saying for a decade.

It shouldn't be an option at all.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by W///

Totally get it, maybe EV's aren't for you and that's OK. I just think they make better DD's than any ICE for my case, but I know it's pretty specific. For me it doesn't have that much to do with $ ROI to be honest.

Btw, can't go wrong with an X5 M50. They're fantastic cars.



Why are you bringing up public charging when replying to me? Again, I'm only speaking about what my use case would be and that doesn't entail public charging regularly. The funny thing is I don't even own an EV, just saying seeing a cheaper and interesting EV is way better than a 6 figure Cybertruck.

The only reason I brought up that you should at least experience EV's because to me, they're not just about saving on fuel costs and saving baby seals. There are genuine upsides. I remember you complaining about how auto trans including the 8ZF are too clunky and slow. Good news, EV's are smoother than any ICE you can imagine

For what it's worth, I completely agree that public charging is an annoyance and I would have 0 interest in road tripping in an EV. But as I mentioned, that's not what I'd use a Renault 5 for if they were available here.

I've driven several EV. That's what I like about them, essentially they are a manual transmission car, but just with one gear, so they are always in the "right gear". My complaint about ICEV automatics are they are tuned for fuel conservation rather than for performance, so they are never in the right gear. Sure, modern automatics can be shifted manually, but it's not the same as a true-clutch manual.

I discuss EV in terms of public charging because it's part of the ownership equation; it was not directed at you specifically.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

It shouldn't be an option at all.

Well, I think they should be part of the mix because they do make sense in certain use cases. But they shouldn't come with all the societial baggage of non-private funding of the infrastructure, grid impact (now competing with AI for electricity), and legislation. It's been 20 years of artifical market creation to jumpstart EV (that's funny in this context), but it's time for them to stand alone and compete on a level playing field. (queue the oil subsidies chat...).