[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

theres a reason why people on the new (and used market) are paying over sticker for the CTR and ITS... and porsches... and blackwings.. and z06s.

But not G series M cars, even the M4 CSL.

In general they are very constrained production volumes compared with the G87 which has hit around 2,000 vehicles per month, less than half that for the Honda products, around half that for the Z06 at the moment and much less for the GT3.

[baron95]

Originally Posted by adc

Lighter wheels are always FTW.

Lighter battery in the trunk, not so much. You are skewing the weight distribution even more towards the front, nothing good comes from that, handling-wise.

Humm....the battery saves ~40 lbs or ~1% of the weight of the car with a driver, so a negligeable shift in weight distribution. to give you an idea this is less than half the weight distribution changes from full fuel to 1/8th fuel.

Also, people tend to pay way too much attention to static weight distribution, which is not very relevant on track. That is why Civic Type R with 60% weight at the front can oversteer and 911s with 60% of the weight in the rear can understeer, if not driven correctly. Just balance the car correctly with brake and throttle and don't worry so much about static weight distribution.

Taking weight out is always a win. Static weight distribution is a second order, less important, benefit.

[murderspice]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

theres a reason why people on the new (and used market) are paying over sticker for the CTR and ITS... and porsches... and blackwings.. and z06s.

But not G series M cars, even the M4 CSL.

In your opinion, what is the reason?

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by murderspice

In your opinion, what is the reason?

The reasons are:

1. The cars are hyped up
2. People have to be the first to have said hyped thing
3. People have to have something others don't (status in their circle)
4. Achieving # 2 & 3 boosts people's self-worth because they view the thing as an extension of themselves & put high value on the opinions of others
5. People justify the over-spend to achieve #s 2-4

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

The reasons are:

1. The cars are hyped up
2. People have to be the first to have said hyped thing
3. People have to have something others don't (status in their circle)
4. Achieving # 2 & 3 boosts people's self-worth because they view the thing as an extension of themselves & put high value on the opinions of others
5. People justify the over-spend to achieve #s 2-4

i think it is as simple as:

1) The cars are hyped up by press and talking heads way more than the G series cars were
2) you (mostly) cannot stroll into a dealer and order any of the above other than G series

simple supply and demand, BMW is getting as many G series M cars into the wild as possible, the others are purposely limiting the numbers as a favor to their dealer networks which allows them to bend the customer over and generate some profit. Also see: Nissan Z.

[murderspice]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

i think it is as simple as:

1) The cars are hyped up by press and talking heads way more than the G series cars were
2) you (mostly) cannot stroll into a dealer and order any of the above other than G series

simple supply and demand, BMW is getting as many G series M cars into the wild as possible, the others are purposely limiting the numbers as a favor to their dealer networks which allows them to bend the customer over and generate some profit. Also see: Nissan Z.

Ooooooor, now hear me out; those cars are special. Now before you crucify me, think about the world of EV trash that is about to dominate ‘car’ culture and compare it to what is likely the best civic honda ever made.

Im not trying to convince anyone, but I think we are at the end of an era. If EVs in general don’t succeed by 2035, car makers will be 10 years behind in ICE development and probably another 10 years to get back to the same place we are today. Good driving cars or super rare ones may be the only thing “we” have for decades; or at least until they figure this EV thing out.

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

i think it is as simple as:

1) The cars are hyped up by press and talking heads way more than the G series cars were
2) you (mostly) cannot stroll into a dealer and order any of the above other than G series

simple supply and demand, BMW is getting as many G series M cars into the wild as possible, the others are purposely limiting the numbers as a favor to their dealer networks which allows them to bend the customer over and generate some profit. Also see: Nissan Z.

I agree this is why dealers are charging ADM, but people are choosing to pay it, imo, for the reasons I stated. These vehicles aren't necessities, so there is no reason to pay over msrp.

I've never paid msrp or over msrp for any vehicle I've owned. Once I ordered limited production specialty vehicle and the deal was for msrp. I tracked that vehicle along every stage of production, tracked it on the train and watched them unload from the train, followed it to the dealer, etc. When it arrived the dealership added $15k ADM, and wouldn't honor my order agreement. I tracked that vehicle for 9 months, had waited over a year to order it.

I received a refund of my deposit and walked out. While it sucked, there are plenty of other great vehicles out there. Looking back, I've owned 30+ vehicles since then, so I'm glad I didn't pay the ridiculous ADM. I buy what I like, not what magazines say are cool, or what other people think are cool.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

i think it is as simple as:

1) The cars are hyped up by press and talking heads way more than the G series cars were
2) you (mostly) cannot stroll into a dealer and order any of the above other than G series

simple supply and demand, BMW is getting as many G series M cars into the wild as possible, the others are purposely limiting the numbers as a favor to their dealer networks which allows them to bend the customer over and generate some profit. Also see: Nissan Z.

Quantity supplied and quantity demanded. Demand is a measure of utility, it does not change with price. Quantity demanded changes with price.

But, yes these Honda's are super hyped up, and I've owned 2 Acura's. You can get a RWD 230i that's quicker than a ITS for $15-$20k less. I know, I know, no manual, but with the traffic the way it is almost everywhere nowdays, so what.

[Bumpinjeep]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

theres a reason why people on the new (and used market) are paying over sticker for the CTR and ITS... and porsches... and blackwings.. and z06s.

But not G series M cars, even the M4 CSL.

It's all about supply and demand. Which (what I find crazy too), affects multiple demographics in a very similar way.
Take for instance the CTR, at $45K that's one demographic. Now look at the GT3RS, at $145K it's a completely different demographic. Both apparently are willing to spend substantially more than MSRP for the car as both Honda and Porsche know that scarcity creates demand. Which is a different approach to BMW that says just build the cars and people will buy them. I would guess the latter makes far more money than the former.

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by murderspice

Ooooooor, now hear me out; those cars are special. Now before you crucify me, think about the world of EV trash that is about to dominate ‘car’ culture and compare it to what is likely the best civic honda ever made.

Im not trying to convince anyone, but I think we are at the end of an era. If EVs in general don’t succeed by 2035, car makers will be 10 years behind in ICE development and probably another 10 years to get back to the same place we are today. Good driving cars or super rare ones may be the only thing “we” have for decades; or at least until they figure this EV thing out.

no one is denying those cars are special, and i tend to agree with you on the last part- which was part of why i bought my G87 when i did, to see if i liked the platform enough to buy a G8x as a forever car before "the reckoning" you described.

they are ALL special, but to directly address the point, the reason G series cars are being sold at sticker and under, and those other also special cars aren't, is IMHO a function of purposely low supply on the part of the other OEMs. G series cars could easily be going for over sticker still if they cranked back the production by 50% which thankfully for all of us, they arent

[Humdizzle]

i dont know if M2s would go over sticker if there was scarcity. Wasn't the CSL and CS limited? i dont see those going over sticker or having much hype. (aside from the M2 CS)

the other thing scarcity creates is value retention. The Type S and M240i are around the same price. but you could probably sell the type is 2-3 years for nearly what you paid. M cars are generally leased and dumped now, which floods the market after 3 years.

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

i dont know if M2s would go over sticker if there was scarcity. Wasn't the CSL and CS limited? i dont see those going over sticker or having much hype. (aside from the M2 CS)

the other thing scarcity creates is value retention. The Type S and M240i are around the same price. but you could probably sell the type is 2-3 years for nearly what you paid. M cars are generally leased and dumped now, which floods the market after 3 years.

its a good point but i dont think there is enough differentiation to the average enthusiast to pay the premiums that the CSL and CS demanded. this is my first BMW and first M; i never in a million years would pay the 20k premium over a base G87 for the "upgrade". at 63k the M2 might have a line out the door at 50% production; unless you are a diehard M guy, where is the value in 85k for a CS?

what part of the value retention is scarcity vs perceived long term reliability? if you told me the M240 would cost me the same over a 5 year used car period as the ITS, which would i really pick? that is a large part of what drives the value gap between used german and used japanese vehicles, and in the used market where people are more sensitive to these costs

[murderspice]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

no one is denying those cars are special, and i tend to agree with you on the last part- which was part of why i bought my G87 when i did, to see if i liked the platform enough to buy a G8x as a forever car before "the reckoning" you described.

they are ALL special, but to directly address the point, the reason G series cars are being sold at sticker and under, and those other also special cars aren't, is IMHO a function of purposely low supply on the part of the other OEMs. G series cars could easily be going for over sticker still if they cranked back the production by 50% which thankfully for all of us, they arent

I meant g8x m cars just arent special.

[Ugly Kar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit_maximization

It's really this simple, but I don't believe Honda get's it because there's no way they're operating at the point where MC=MR the way they're restricting Quantity Supplied.

[Carefree]

Another box of popcorn please………….

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by murderspice

I meant g8x m cars just arent special.

i'm not sure how you would get to THAT conclusion based on the speech you just gave about this generation of cars being the end of the pinnacle of ICE engineering- naturally, the g8x cars will be the "pinnacle" of BMW M ICE if you want to be consistent in your reasoning. if you want to argue they will make a shit ton of them, yeah, thats kind of my point, but to argue they aren't special at all seems intellectually disingenuous

[murderspice]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

i'm not sure how you would get to THAT conclusion based on the speech you just gave about this generation of cars being the end of the pinnacle of ICE engineering- naturally, the g8x cars will be the "pinnacle" of BMW M ICE if you want to be consistent in your reasoning. if you want to argue they will make a shit ton of them, yeah, thats kind of my point, but to argue they aren't special at all seems intellectually disingenuous

I believe bmw peaked with the f87.

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by murderspice

I believe bmw peaked with the f87.

ahhhh okay, you believe peak BMW is the one you own... something something chris harris, owners protecting residuals etc

i won't change your mind but i can attest to the fact that the G87 is indeed a very special car, which is different from being a very GOOD car. after owning many special cars, and driving many more. my B8 S4 was a GOOD car, but not special. my W220 S55 AMG, was a very SPECIAL car, but not a very good one. the g87 is both, so far at least.

[murderspice]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

ahhhh okay, you believe peak BMW is the one you own...

i can attest to the fact that the G87 is indeed a very special car

No disrespect, just pointing it out.

Do you own a g87?

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by murderspice

No disrespect, just pointing it out.

Do you own a g87?

none taken, i just reject your framework outright, so you aren't really pointing anything out. it's OK to advocate for your own interests, but to do so nakedly is going to result in people noticing right off the bat lol. the OG F87 is "special" but i found it far from "peak BMW" as the ride was horrendous and it always looked very feminine to me.

IMHO peak BMW is the E39 M5. but we can argue about that from now until eternity. i think the G87 fits the mold better than the F87 ever did

and of course i own a G87, this is a G87 forum. perhaps this forum isnt special enough for you either, or you are here for another reason... back to protecting residuals

[murderspice]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

IMHO peak BMW is the E39 M5. but we can argue about that from now until eternity. i think the G87 fits the mold better than the F87 ever did

On the whole, you don't think bmws got better since the e39?

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by murderspice

On the whole, you don't think bmws got better since the e39?

again we have an issue with definitions- on the whole, did BMWs get better:

• as cars?
• as a representation of "peak BMW"?
• as "M cars"?

as cars: absolutely. but so did all cars.

as representations of "peak BMW": to me personally, NO.. the styling, sizing, and interior to me are "peak BMW".

as "M cars": again also NO. IMHO has all the hallmarks of an M car displayed to the ///maximum. perfect ride handling balance, daily drive-ability, styling etc.

in full disclosure i have not driven every single M car. but of those i have, thats my answer.