[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

If If if if -
Super circumstantial and will never recoup the costs of a regular basic commuter car.

THat's what I said, windows, they work in windows. And yes, it is cheaper for him than a basic ICE commuter.

The real point here is EV's were pushed fwd as a replacement for ICE but in reality it will be part of the mix, just another option, which is what Toyota has been saying for a decade.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

THat's what I said, windows, they work in windows. And yes, it is cheaper for him than a basic ICE commuter.

The real point here is EV's were pushed fwd as a replacement for ICE but in reality it will be part of the mix, just another option, which is what Toyota has been saying for a decade.

It shouldn't be an option at all.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by W///

Totally get it, maybe EV's aren't for you and that's OK. I just think they make better DD's than any ICE for my case, but I know it's pretty specific. For me it doesn't have that much to do with $ ROI to be honest.

Btw, can't go wrong with an X5 M50. They're fantastic cars.



Why are you bringing up public charging when replying to me? Again, I'm only speaking about what my use case would be and that doesn't entail public charging regularly. The funny thing is I don't even own an EV, just saying seeing a cheaper and interesting EV is way better than a 6 figure Cybertruck.

The only reason I brought up that you should at least experience EV's because to me, they're not just about saving on fuel costs and saving baby seals. There are genuine upsides. I remember you complaining about how auto trans including the 8ZF are too clunky and slow. Good news, EV's are smoother than any ICE you can imagine

For what it's worth, I completely agree that public charging is an annoyance and I would have 0 interest in road tripping in an EV. But as I mentioned, that's not what I'd use a Renault 5 for if they were available here.

I've driven several EV. That's what I like about them, essentially they are a manual transmission car, but just with one gear, so they are always in the "right gear". My complaint about ICEV automatics are they are tuned for fuel conservation rather than for performance, so they are never in the right gear. Sure, modern automatics can be shifted manually, but it's not the same as a true-clutch manual.

I discuss EV in terms of public charging because it's part of the ownership equation; it was not directed at you specifically.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

It shouldn't be an option at all.

Well, I think they should be part of the mix because they do make sense in certain use cases. But they shouldn't come with all the societial baggage of non-private funding of the infrastructure, grid impact (now competing with AI for electricity), and legislation. It's been 20 years of artifical market creation to jumpstart EV (that's funny in this context), but it's time for them to stand alone and compete on a level playing field. (queue the oil subsidies chat...).

[dfox]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well, I think they should be part of the mix because they do make sense in certain use cases. But they shouldn't come with all the societial baggage of non-private funding of the infrastructure, grid impact (now competing with AI for electricity), and legislation. It's been 20 years of artifical market creation to jumpstart EV (that's funny in this context), but it's time for them to stand alone and compete on a level playing field. (queue the oil subsidies chat...).

I don't want to go down a political rabbit hole, but man, I'd really like for both EV and petrol to lose the majority of their government subsidies. But you can't get rid of just EV's funding and claim "even playing field".

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by dfox

I don't want to go down a political rabbit hole, but man, I'd really like for both EV and petrol to lose the majority of their government subsidies. But you can't get rid of just EV's funding and claim "even playing field".

Even playing field would be very reasonable.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dfox

I don't want to go down a political rabbit hole, but man, I'd really like for both EV and petrol to lose the majority of their government subsidies. But you can't get rid of just EV's funding and claim "even playing field".

The internet says the US Fed carbon fuels (fossil fuel) industry subsidies are $20B per year. Of that, 20% goes to coal (i.e. electricity production) and 80% goes to oil and natural gas*. So, some dirty math, let's split natural gas and oil evenly and the subsidies for gasoline is $8B. The internet says the US uses 137B gallons of gasoline per year. Divide $8B by 137B and the gas cost increase is $0.06 per gallon. I'm thinking a 6-cent increase in gasoline is not going to factor into someone's decision to switch to EV. 15,000 miles/year at 25 MPG adds just $35 to someone' annual gas cost. Giving buyers $7,500 may entice them to switch to EV.

*Keep in mind 43% of natural gas consumption is used to generate electricity, says Bing, and 16% of US electrical generation is from coal. So nearly 60% of electricity generation is subsidized (it's more than that if you count sustainable energy subsidies).

Just making observations.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by W///

Totally get it, maybe EV's aren't for you and that's OK. I just think they make better DD's than any ICE for my case, but I know it's pretty specific. For me it doesn't have that much to do with $ ROI to be honest.

Btw, can't go wrong with an X5 M50. They're fantastic cars.

Don't get me wrong, if there was a PHEV that had the right mix of performance and cost, I would be interested. I just see it as a financial decision, not anything more. There's nothing about an EV that's any better than my X5, outside of the charging vs gas thing, but getting gas once every 3-4 weeks isn't a big deal to me, and until there is a price parity... It just doesn't make sense.

The only thing I see on the horizon that would MAYBE do it for me is Ramcharger, but the pricing on that isn't announced yet. If they hit the same pricing as the Hurricane Ram, it'll be a hit. If not, it'll be too expensive and not have an ROI.

The PHEV market is where any incentives should be going. Forget bull EVs, they're a niche use case. PHEVs work for the mass market, and enable a lot more drivers to go near zero emissions without the downsides of a full EV.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by dfox

I don't want to go down a political rabbit hole, but man, I'd really like for both EV and petrol to lose the majority of their government subsidies. But you can't get rid of just EV's funding and claim "even playing field".

There are not really large federal subsidies for the oil industry. They get the same write offs as any other company. Because of that, people have now created the concept of "indirect subsidies" where they can assign an arbitrary value to make it looks like they get so much in subsidies.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Don't get me wrong, if there was a PHEV that had the right mix of performance and cost, I would be interested. I just see it as a financial decision, not anything more. There's nothing about an EV that's any better than my X5, outside of the charging vs gas thing, but getting gas once every 3-4 weeks isn't a big deal to me, and until there is a price parity... It just doesn't make sense.

The only thing I see on the horizon that would MAYBE do it for me is Ramcharger, but the pricing on that isn't announced yet. If they hit the same pricing as the Hurricane Ram, it'll be a hit. If not, it'll be too expensive and not have an ROI.

The PHEV market is where any incentives should be going. Forget bull EVs, they're a niche use case. PHEVs work for the mass market, and enable a lot more drivers to go near zero emissions without the downsides of a full EV.

I was hoping the Scout Terra Harvester was going to be a mid-sized pickup, but the dimensions are near full size. I'm signed up for one, we'll see how big it is when comes out in 2028. Maybe Farley's Ford will make a series-hybrid Bronco Pickup. That'd trigger a take-my-money event for me.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I was hoping the Scout Terra Harvester was going to be a mid-sized pickup, but the dimensions are near full size. I'm signed up for one, we'll see how big it is when comes out in 2028. Maybe Farley's Ford will make a series-hybrid Bronco Pickup. That'd trigger a take-my-money event for me.

Truck sizing is a tough nut to crack.

The midsize trucks are too small. The fullsize trucks often feel too big. You can't make the midsize trucks bigger or fullsize trucks smaller because then they're too close in size. The fullsize trucks have huge economies of scale, so they usually hit price points uncomfortably close to the midsize trucks.

The fullsize trucks are basically family vehicles, so you can't really make them any smaller. Nissan and Toyota tried that, Titan never took off and Tundra is now big AF. Maybe a next gen Frontier will be able to grow to be in that middle ground of midsize and full size? Who knows.

Ford doesn't seem to have a strategy anymore. Like Mike Tyson says "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face". Ford has done that a few times and seems to be spiralling into "try everything". They're wasting time with project T3, the ground up EV truck nobody wants. They're going to make EREV versions of everything. They're adding PHEV to everything. They're surprised people aren't buying Lightning at $60-90k that looks like a 2015 truck.

[Alfisti]

I do think the traditional manufacturers (I.e not Tesla or Rivian for eg) have made a HUGE error in going all tech bro with their EV line up. Hopeless UI, no hard buttons, fiddly electronics, self driving this and that, tech for the sake of tech etc etc. They've told themselves their market is Tesla buyers, it's mostly not, it's people who want a 3 series that doesn't drink gas so just keep everything the same and replace the engine. No idea why so many EV need to be such utter fucking nightmares to use from a UI perspective.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

There are not really large federal subsidies for the oil industry. They get the same write offs as any other company. Because of that, people have now created the concept of "indirect subsidies" where they can assign an arbitrary value to make it looks like they get so much in subsidies.

Write offs, subsidies, I don't care what they are, they cost me money and skew the playing field.

The fossil fuel industry is insanely lucrative. They don't need our taxpayer dollars, continuously contributing to our deficit.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Truck sizing is a tough nut to crack.

The midsize trucks are too small. The fullsize trucks often feel too big. You can't make the midsize trucks bigger or fullsize trucks smaller because then they're too close in size. The fullsize trucks have huge economies of scale, so they usually hit price points uncomfortably close to the midsize trucks.

The fullsize trucks are basically family vehicles, so you can't really make them any smaller. Nissan and Toyota tried that, Titan never took off and Tundra is now big AF. Maybe a next gen Frontier will be able to grow to be in that middle ground of midsize and full size? Who knows.

Ford doesn't seem to have a strategy anymore. Like Mike Tyson says "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face". Ford has done that a few times and seems to be spiralling into "try everything". They're wasting time with project T3, the ground up EV truck nobody wants. They're going to make EREV versions of everything. They're adding PHEV to everything. They're surprised people aren't buying Lightning at $60-90k that looks like a 2015 truck.

Or how about this... Maybe trucks should just go back to being work vehicles instead of family vehicles...

In reality, the vast majority of trucks on the road are emotional support vehicles.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dfox

Or how about this... Maybe trucks should just go back to being work vehicles instead of family vehicles...

In reality, the vast majority of trucks on the road are emotional support vehicles.

I've had a pickup in my fleet for nearly the full 45 years I've had a driver's license because need a pickup truck. I don't think the "vast majority" are emotional support vehicles anymore than an ///M car is. Not sure why a lot of people dislike the people who own and use pickups, but whatever.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Truck sizing is a tough nut to crack.

The midsize trucks are too small. The fullsize trucks often feel too big. You can't make the midsize trucks bigger or fullsize trucks smaller because then they're too close in size. The fullsize trucks have huge economies of scale, so they usually hit price points uncomfortably close to the midsize trucks.

The fullsize trucks are basically family vehicles, so you can't really make them any smaller. Nissan and Toyota tried that, Titan never took off and Tundra is now big AF. Maybe a next gen Frontier will be able to grow to be in that middle ground of midsize and full size? Who knows.

Ford doesn't seem to have a strategy anymore. Like Mike Tyson says "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face". Ford has done that a few times and seems to be spiralling into "try everything". They're wasting time with project T3, the ground up EV truck nobody wants. They're going to make EREV versions of everything. They're adding PHEV to everything. They're surprised people aren't buying Lightning at $60-90k that looks like a 2015 truck.

I've had all three sizes, a 1st gen Ford Ranger and a 10th generation F150. I'm now in a midsized (GM Colorado chassis). The Scout looks to be an in-betweener. Just like not everyone needs a full-size sedan. It's great to have choices. I have a Gen 6 Bronco and it's bigger than I expected, but still livable. A Bronco EREV pickup would be right-sized. I could pare down to just two vehicles then.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I've had a pickup in my fleet for nearly the full 45 years I've had a driver's license because need a pickup truck. I don't think the "vast majority" are emotional support vehicles anymore than an ///M car is. Not sure why a lot of people dislike the people who own and use pickups, but whatever.

I don't dislike anyone who drives a pickup. That would be a weird thing to dislike someone for.

I dislike the fact that we've traded much more efficient vehicles such as wagons out for pickup trucks as family vehicles. I'm sure it's just the demographic of the people I live around and have surrounding my life, but only a select few people who own trucks actually use them as trucks enough to justify owning one and driving one around on a daily basis. They get used for mulch once a year, and the occasional 2x for a house project (that they can't secure in their tiny ass bed).

Anecdotally, a few years ago I watched a guy struggle to load and secure a bunch of 2x's in his clearly family hauler truck. He was working on it when I pulled into the lumber yard. I popped the hatch on our suv, slid them in, and drove away while he was still sitting there trying to secure the load.

I have also met more than one construction worker who drove minivans for work because they're cheaper and way more convenient for hauling construction equipment and materials. I work on the fringes of the construction trade, and my company relies on work vans for our equipment - way more useful, keeps our stuff dry and safer from theft.

I've been laughed at for spending too much money on my convertible when pulling into a construction site, yet the shiny bro-dozer on rubberband tires I parked next to likely cost close to 6 figures. It's a mentality. Not everyone is this way, but a lot of guys absolutely do use them as emotional support vehicles.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by dfox

Or how about this... Maybe trucks should just go back to being work vehicles instead of family vehicles...

In reality, the vast majority of trucks on the road are emotional support vehicles.

People have uses for trucks. Need a pallet of sod? Truck makes it easy. New appliances? Yard waste? New TV? Trucks make almost everything a lot easier. But people also have families, so of course your truck is gonna be your family car too if you have a single car.

I bought a folding utility trailer, it works great for the stuff I use it for, but it's a hassle compared to just throwing stuff in the bed of the truck you're already driving.

I fully expect that I will replace my X5 with a truck. It's just so damn handy to have a bed and space for myself and my kids.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by dfox

I don't dislike anyone who drives a pickup. That would be a weird thing to dislike someone for.

I dislike the fact that we've traded much more efficient vehicles such as wagons out for pickup trucks as family vehicles. I'm sure it's just the demographic of the people I live around and have surrounding my life, but only a select few people who own trucks actually use them as trucks enough to justify owning one and driving one around on a daily basis. They get used for mulch once a year, and the occasional 2x for a house project (that they can't secure in their tiny ass bed).

Anecdotally, a few years ago I watched a guy struggle to load and secure a bunch of 2x's in his clearly family hauler truck. He was working on it when I pulled into the lumber yard. I popped the hatch on our suv, slid them in, and drove away while he was still sitting there trying to secure the load.

I have also met more than one construction worker who drove minivans for work because they're cheaper and way more convenient for hauling construction equipment and materials. I work on the fringes of the construction trade, and my company relies on work vans for our equipment - way more useful, keeps our stuff dry and safer from theft.

I've been laughed at for spending too much money on my convertible when pulling into a construction site, yet the shiny bro-dozer on rubberband tires I parked next to likely cost close to 6 figures. It's a mentality. Not everyone is this way, but a lot of guys absolutely do use them as emotional support vehicles.

I will say, from a partiality standpoint my Colorado was BY FAR the best truck I had. It was a little 4 door with a 5.3L V8 and I paid like $10k for it. I used it for EVERYTHING. I had scoops of diet and mulch dumped into the bed and didn't care that I was unloading it from the back with a shovel because it was cheap. When I needed to haul 16' boards for my deck (yeah, my deck was big, you know you're jealous :P) I could open the slider up and rest them on the tailgate and strap them down. It was cheap and so I was a lot less worried about it than I was with other trucks I've had. It was also a lowered sport truck and I could easily reach into the bed for stuff.

Prior to that I had a far nicer brand new f150 platinum. It was too expensive and too nice to use for really dirty jobs. Those 16' boards required my gf to sit on one side for a counter balance in the bed because Ford in their infinite wisdom made the rear window a little hole in the glass rear window. If I tried to bring it into the cab, it would have been resting on the glass of the rear window. When I wanted to reach stuff in the bed, I often had to jump on a tire, and I'm 6'2.

All that said, I still want another one. Our Expedition works great for this sort of stuff too, but with the car seats in the back it doesn't have as much storage space.

I had the same comments with the Corvettes though. Nobody ever said a damn thing to me about my truck that was 20k more money, lol.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

People have uses for trucks. Need a pallet of sod? Truck makes it easy. New appliances? Yard waste? New TV? Trucks make almost everything a lot easier. But people also have families, so of course your truck is gonna be your family car too if you have a single car.

I bought a folding utility trailer, it works great for the stuff I use it for, but it's a hassle compared to just throwing stuff in the bed of the truck you're already driving.

I fully expect that I will replace my X5 with a truck. It's just so damn handy to have a bed and space for myself and my kids.

Feel free to do whatever makes you happy. Great that we have choices. Doesn't change how I see them though.

I grab my neighbors utility trailer that's substantially larger than any pickup truck bed. And if my neighbor didn't already have one, they're dirt cheap to rent. Much more useful than any pickup. More tiedowns. Easier to load and unload because it's closer to the ground. No concern about damaging anything because it's just wood and steel. Used it to buy siding to reside our house, engineered wood flooring for the first floor of our house, fireplace, new range, new fridge, etc... and I don't need to drive an oversized pickup that's a pain in the ass to park in the city, where my work also takes me a lot.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by dfox

Or how about this... Maybe trucks should just go back to being work vehicles instead of family vehicles...

In reality, the vast majority of trucks on the road are emotional support vehicles.

theoretically, I agree and I am a fan of the US made pickup trucks overall (f150 etc)...

but even in terms of "carrying" stuff... unless you are consistently carrying heavy and maybe hazardous loads... i don't see what a pickup can do that a midsize SUV (with back seats folded) or even a minivan can't with its seats removed.. i've carried very large loads with my X3 including sod etc and there has never been an issue...

driving a large truck daily... you get bad fuel efficiency... a horrid body on frame ride on the street that wiggles all over and have to deal with parking and handling a car the size of an aircraft carrier... if I have to move that one item once or twice a year, its still easier and cheaper to rent a full size truck at lowes for $19 for the hour lol

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I've had a pickup in my fleet for nearly the full 45 years I've had a driver's license because need a pickup truck. I don't think the "vast majority" are emotional support vehicles anymore than an ///M car is. Not sure why a lot of people dislike the people who own and use pickups, but whatever.

i would make this arguement...

folks that buy "m" cars are likely more of an enthusiast than someone buying any truck and likely use their cars for their intended purpose "fun, fast driving" more so than the guy that drives to his office job every day in an f150... again, could be wrong but I live in the land of trucks and I see it every day