[BroDoze]

Yep, the autos lose in the sound dept for sure. All sorts of sound fun can be had with an MT.

[BroDoze]

I have been unable to drive another ZF8+S58 combo car for another test drive. Dealer has none.
This sucks - my allocation is going to hit soon and I’m going to have to make a split decision. Completely torn at this point.

[BroDoze]

Got to drive a G80 Comp yesterday with the ZT8 on an extended test drive with some good road mixes and some freedom. Holy crap that’s a fast car.
Second, it’s chassis and road holding is amazing. I hope my new M2 drives very similar, minus the power difference - hopefully the 2025’s increases closes the gap a little bit more.

Anyway, I’m 99% sure on the Auto. I had a shit-ton of fun with the Auto and was pretty much focusing on the roads with both hands on the wheel,as I had near-instant power at any rpm, carving up the corners. I got to try out all the modes and settings and have a good grasp on what they all do and don’t do.
There’s just no way to replicate the instant power, speed and ease with the 6MT - too much dancing with the pedals and right arm. I’m a seasoned manual driver and would’ve never thought I’d arrive here. Pretty sure that was the confirmation I needed.

Hoping to get this 2025 ordered soon!

[Sleeper]

Originally Posted by BroDoze

Got to drive a G80 Comp yesterday with the ZT8 on an extended test drive with some good road mixes and some freedom. Holy crap that’s a fast car.
Second, it’s chassis and road holding is amazing. I hope my new M2 drives very similar, minus the power difference - hopefully the 2025’s increases closes the gap a little bit more.

Anyway, I’m 99% sure on the Auto. I had a shit-ton of fun with the Auto and was pretty much focusing on the roads with both hands on the wheel,as I had near-instant power at any rpm, carving up the corners. I got to try out all the modes and settings and have a good grasp on what they all do and don’t do.
There’s just no way to replicate the instant power, speed and ease with the 6MT - too much dancing with the pedals and right arm. I’m a seasoned manual driver and would’ve never thought I’d arrive here. Pretty sure that was the confirmation I needed.

Hoping to get this 2025 ordered soon!

And just like video games, it gets boring to button mash after a while.

But I think your post sums up why the manuals are dying. The auto’s are just too easy to drive - they’re quick, snappy, power everywhere, and (don’t hate on me for saying this) they take very little skill to drive well. The manual transmission needs timing, coordination, planning and skill to be driven well, especially at the limit.

I completely understand why guys don’t want to be “on” all the time to drive their cars. So for a daily driver, I understand the ZF. For everything else where you’re actually going to be *driving, #savethemanuals.

[BroDoze]

Originally Posted by Sleeper

And just like video games, it gets boring to button mash after a while.

But I think your post sums up why the manuals are dying. The auto’s are just too easy to drive - they’re quick, snappy, power everywhere, and (don’t hate on me for saying this) they take very little skill to drive well. The manual transmission needs timing, coordination, planning and skill to be driven well, especially at the limit.

I completely understand why guys don’t want to be “on” all the time to drive their cars. So for a daily driver, I understand the ZF. For everything else where you’re actually going to be *driving, #savethemanuals.

And I disagree with "actual driving" point. "Actual driving" hasn't had much to do with depressing clutches and rowing gears for awhile now. I can drive manuals better than most, since my mid-teens in GTIs, Corrado VR6, WRXs, STIs, 135is and more etc etc.. I'm over it.
The ZF is just the superior option here.
Different car? Different motor? Different 6MT? Different gearing? Different power band? Sure, I'da probably bought a manual. If I bought a B58 Supra, probably would've been a manual, maybe. S58 just LOVES the ZF, vice-versa, that much was very clear to me yesterday.
No dig on MT owners - enjoy the MTs (not a wrong choice at all, just like ZF ain't wrong) and yes, save the MTs - keep the choice there.

One thing for certain - let's kill the CVTs. I used to be able to deal with the high-torque Subaru versions, but I'm about ready to sell my wife's Subaru - so over that transmission. They just plain suck.
A ZF would've transformed that turbo SUV.

[Geighty7]

Originally Posted by BroDoze

And I disagree with "actual driving" point. "Actual driving" hasn't had much to do with depressing clutches and rowing gears for awhile now. I can drive manuals better than most, since my mid-teens in GTIs, Corrado VR6, WRXs, STIs, 135is and more etc etc.. I'm over it.
The ZF is just the superior option here.
Different car? Different motor? Different 6MT? Different gearing? Different power band? Sure, I'da probably bought a manual. If I bought a B58 Supra, probably would've been a manual, maybe. S58 just LOVES the ZF, vice-versa, that much was very clear to me yesterday.
No dig on MT owners - enjoy the MTs (not a wrong choice at all, just like ZF ain't wrong) and yes, save the MTs - keep the choice there.

One thing for certain - let's kill the CVTs. I used to be able to deal with the high-torque Subaru versions, but I'm about ready to sell my wife's Subaru - so over that transmission. They just plain suck.
A ZF would've transformed that turbo SUV.

It’s funny I actually hated the ZF8 at both of my performance center visits and driving them to the limit, along with most of my friends have them in their G8X.

Imo- not as responsive as I’d expect for my dollar. Give me the DCT and not a torque converter with programmed snap responses that are completely unnecessary with a torque converter LOL.

That being said- it is a superior product to a manual for the full capabilities of the S58 on paper.

I think it is great for your every day enthusiast. But I hate it for reasons that I’ve driven too many spectacular DCT’s and also just love manuals.

I can’t argue that the manual is “better” than the ZF8 (numbers do not lie) but I can say it is a lot more fun (obviously).

It is hard to appreciate a ZF8 after years of abusing a PDK, a few Italian horses, and one Italian bull (all not mine, but all enjoyed to the maximum).

Looking into buying a really nice DCT soon (can’t say which, but it has 670hp and not BMW)

I’d not waste money on an M car with a torque converter the same reason I wouldn’t waste money on a Tesla Plaid… fast af but bored after a few go-rounds.

6MT has a bit more low end torque. Can’t lie, the shifting isn’t the best. I have an autosolutions SSK coming my way for this reason. Also did the CDV delete which changed everything coupled with a better clutch stop that helps speed shifting. I’d rather have this issue than be bored clicking my fingers against 8 gears with fake snap responses because BMW was too lazy for more R&D on their DCT.

As I said- your every day enthusiast (if this is you) won’t care about any of this and will have fun. I’d likely sell a ZF8 in 2 months time tops if I made that mistake.

If DCT was offered- I’d have done this route. No I don’t want an F87.

My 2 sense of bro wisdom. Enjoy your choice as you will, there is no black or white wrong answers.

[clydefrog]

In 10 years there will likely be few if any manual options that aren't obscenely expensive. The ZF8 + S58 is gonna get smoked by whatever hybrid-electric new thing they come out with next anyway.

I'm chasing a feeling when I decide to purchase a car, and the M2 just feels more special with a manual to me.

[Squidget]

Never tempted by the auto. I only own manuals, and it's been that way for decades.

I care about the engagement more than the performance. Rev matching and heel and toeing turn every drive into an experience.

[DrewNewM2]

Originally Posted by clydefrog

In 10 years there will likely be few if any manual options that aren't obscenely expensive. The ZF8 + S58 is gonna get smoked by whatever hybrid-electric new thing they come out with next anyway.

I'm chasing a feeling when I decide to purchase a car, and the M2 just feels more special with a manual to me.

An auto is just one step closer to getting an EV and many EVs are already faster than M cars so I’m sticking with a manual for as long as they’re made. I don’t care that an auto is a bit quicker, it’s about the driving experience and can’t be argued that an additional pedal and a hand shifter provide more for the driver to do so more engaging driving experience. It’s as simple as that. They aren’t putting manuals in EVs so a performance ICE with a manual is going to differentiate from the rest of what’s on the road.

I also have a manual STi and manual Bronco so may be a bit of a manual junkie but they’re all fun AND I can drive them in NYC traffic and still make it home!

[BobHen]

Originally Posted by Squidget

Never tempted by the auto. I only own manuals, and it's been that way for decades.

I care about the engagement more than the performance. Rev matching and heel and toeing turn every drive into an experience.

I've owned manuals, including manual Mustangs. How is less performance with a manual a more engaging experience than the better performing ZF8, especially in manual mode? In my mind, car engagement and car performance are linked together; better performance feels more engaging to me.

Does rev matching and heel toeing turn stop and go traffic into an enjoyable experience?

Bob

[Mark_17]

The auto vs manual argument has been beaten to death more times than anyone could count.

If you've debated getting an auto at any point, just get the auto.

[1stM]

Originally Posted by Mark_17

The auto vs manual argument has been beaten to death more times than anyone could count.

If you've debated getting an auto at any point, just get the auto.

I think OP made his decision after driving both transmissions.

[MMMGuy60]

Originally Posted by BobHen

I've owned manuals, including manual Mustangs. How is less performance with a manual a more engaging experience than the better performing ZF8, especially in manual mode? In my mind, car engagement and car performance are linked together; better performance feels more engaging to me.

Does rev matching and heel toeing turn stop and go traffic into an enjoyable experience?

Bob

You are clueless then. One of the more enjoyable car I ever own was a Miata (low performance). Porsche Cayman/Boxster, at least the base models doesn't have the performance of the M2 but has way better engaging experience than an M2, and I own an M2. I rather play GT on the PS5 than clicking pedals to change gears.

And YES, shifting in stop and go traffic is more enjoyable experience to me than gas/brake of any auto. The new Tesla Model 3 Performance is the car for you if all you care is performance. Nothing come remotely close to the performance for the dollar.

[NewToM]

Originally Posted by BobHen

I've owned manuals, including manual Mustangs. How is less performance with a manual a more engaging experience than the better performing ZF8, especially in manual mode? In my mind, car engagement and car performance are linked together; better performance feels more engaging to me.

Does rev matching and heel toeing turn stop and go traffic into an enjoyable experience?

Bob

Man if I only knew having an auto made traffic fun! I just always assumed it sucked regardless of transmission…

[BobHen]

Originally Posted by NewToM

Man if I only knew having an auto made traffic fun! I just always assumed it sucked regardless of transmission…

Stop and go traffic is of course not enjoyable with an automatic. It's just that stop and go traffic is "much less bothersome" with the automatic and "far more annoying" with a manual.

Bob

[BobHen]

Originally Posted by MMMGuy60

You are clueless then. One of the more enjoyable car I ever own was a Miata (low performance). Porsche Cayman/Boxster, at least the base models doesn't have the performance of the M2 but has way better engaging experience than an M2, and I own an M2. I rather play GT on the PS5 than clicking pedals to change gears.

And YES, shifting in stop and go traffic is more enjoyable experience to me than gas/brake of any auto. The new Tesla Model 3 Performance is the car for you if all you care is performance. Nothing come remotely close to the performance for the dollar.

The discussion is not about the "overall" engaging experience of different models versus other models. The discussion is about one specific car and whether the driving experience in that specific car is more or less engaging with a manual or automatic. If you want to talk about Porsche, pick a model and tell us specifically why the manual is more "engaging" than the PDK.

So, in stop-and-go traffic: repeating 4 steps over and over: gas/brake/clutch/manual shift, is "less annoying" than the 2 steps of gas/brake in an automatic.

And you call me clueless.

Bob

[NewToM]

Originally Posted by BobHen

Stop and go traffic is of course not enjoyable with an automatic. It's just that stop and go traffic is "much less bothersome" with the automatic and "far more annoying" with a manual.

Bob

I know that is a common view, but I don’t feel that way. I live and work in LA traffic and have never once thought I’d rather have an automatic. Not saying shifting in traffic is fun, but I don’t really notice that it makes the driving experience any more annoying much less “far more annoying.”

[Digitalprty]

Originally Posted by Mark_17

The auto vs manual argument has been beaten to death more times than anyone could count.

If you've debated getting an auto at any point, just get the auto.

This.

If you want the manual, you’ll know it. If you’re not sure, you’ll probably be happier with the auto.

[Geighty7]

I’m constantly poking fun at my ZF8 friends who have G8X’s and tease me about my short gear ratio from 1-2. My response is always: “Yall ever dump your clutch at 5-6k rpm and bounce off the limiter a few times as you smell rubber? Didn’t think so!”

[MMMGuy60]

Originally Posted by BobHen

The discussion is not about the "overall" engaging experience of different models versus other models. The discussion is about one specific car and whether the driving experience in that specific car is more or less engaging with a manual or automatic. If you want to talk about Porsche, pick a model and tell us specifically why the manual is more "engaging" than the PDK.

So, in stop-and-go traffic: repeating 4 steps over and over: gas/brake/clutch/manual shift, is "less annoying" than the 2 steps of gas/brake in an automatic.

And you call me clueless.

Bob

Yes you are clueless. Gas brake Gas brake puts me to sleep rather there is traffic or not. Manual is always more engaging rather it's traffic or curvy road. Can't explain that to you since you are like you said ...clueless.

[Mark_17]

Originally Posted by 1stM

I think OP made his decision after driving both transmissions.

You missed my point.... He was always going to end up with the auto...

[BroDoze]

Originally Posted by Mark_17

You missed my point.... He was always going to end up with the auto...

You missed my point. I actually wasn’t always going to end up with the auto. Before I bailed on my MY24 allotment, I had a 6MT ready to go with my SA.
I have the MP shift knob and freakin BMS clutch stop, brand new in plastic, sitting in my office. The decision to go for the MY25 2-3 months ago has given me more time to waffle back and forth, and do a lot more test drives.
Even just reading the press release has me wondering again about the Manual. Truly a tough decision.