[Falafel Combo]

AWD with all season rubber is better than RWD with the best snow/ice tries money can buy, in every imaginable situation except for braking. Period!

My own personal experience and my flawed but very strongly help opinion.

Frankly, I don't really care what anyone else thinks, since they do not have the burden of traveling the roads which I do, nor will they have the responsibility of having "reliable" transportation to rush home to family when an emergency breaks out.

So really, this is not a topic which is open to debate in my mind. It's strictly a case by case judgement call based on location, topography, personal comfort level with being stuck in a ditch in sub freezing temperatures for an hour or two, and finally confidence with snow clearing efforts of your town and the ones you frequent.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

AWD with all season rubber is better than RWD with the best snow/ice tries money can buy, in every imaginable situation except for braking. Period!

Wow, umm....ok.

From the rest of your post below, I won't try to convince you that you are wrong (though I think any number of studies and experiences will tell you this - they won't grip as well, won't corner as well, etc, etc, etc) but I will ask one question:

The part of your post I bolded. Even if that statement were true, isn't that enough right there?

Put another way, when it comes to collision avoidance (which is a major consideration in driving on snow and, particularly, ice) what could be more important than stopping? And wouldn't you give up some of the 'get up and go from a stop' benefit of AWD for an improved ability to stop?

My own personal experience and my flawed but very strongly help opinion.

Frankly, I don't really care what anyone else thinks, since they do not have the burden of traveling the roads which I do, nor will they have the responsibility of having "reliable" transportation to rush home to family when an emergency breaks out.

So really, this is not a topic which is open to debate in my mind. It's strictly a case by case judgement call based on location, topography, personal comfort level with being stuck in a ditch in sub freezing temperatures for an hour or two, and finally confidence with snow clearing efforts of your town and the ones you frequent.

Anyway, for the reason of the bolded statements, I won't try to argue/reason with you (I sincerely do appreciate when people just say outright 'my mind cannot be changed' rather than those who pretend they can, but who are just being dishonest) though I WILL have to say that I'm not sure I would make my point by suggesting (as you subtly do) that your needs for driving a car safely in winter may be more pressing or are that different from others.....

Edit: Sorry. Was bugging me. Couldn't let it go.

Here is some of that counter-evidence (if not for you, for others)

Here is an article:

http://driving.ca/subaru/auto-news/n...le-in-the-snow

but try this video:

http://jalopnik.com/heres-irrefutabl...hle-1671708207

(edit: best part is that it is a video from Auto Express (a UK publication) and because it is on jalopnik (US website) they have frickin' subtitles. :

or this one:

http://jalopnik.com/lets-settle-the-...bat-1462180324

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by myzmak

Wow, umm....ok.


Edit: Sorry. Was bugging me. Couldn't let it go.

Here is some of that counter-evidence (if not for you, for others)

Here is an article:

http://driving.ca/subaru/auto-news/n...le-in-the-snow

but try this video:

http://jalopnik.com/heres-irrefutabl...hle-1671708207

(edit: best part is that it is a video from Auto Express (a UK publication) and because it is on jalopnik (US website) they have frickin' subtitles. :

or this one:

http://jalopnik.com/lets-settle-the-...bat-1462180324

It's not like the winter tires will stop you dead in your tracks and all seasons take a half mile. As long as you drive judiciously and reasonably cautious for the surrounding weather conditions and vehicle load, most any tire with acceptable tread depth will stop your vehicle in a reasonable and very safe distance. Yes, one will be better than the other, but in my own experience, not significantly. Not even consistently.

Also please, no need to quote sensationalist videos on Jalopnik, where they pit a RWD e46 or FWD truck on snow tires, against SUVs on SUMMER tires. That's not relevant either.

A summer tire on snow or ice will not even back you out of your driveway. Huge difference between summer and all season.

Again, my observations are strictly applicable to daily driving tasks, doing maybe 30-50 mph, on a few inches of snow. 2-4 inches maybe.

But yes, after 6 straight New England winters and sometimes hilly terrains, in RWD, xDrive, FWD, snow tires, all seasons and summer tires in many different combinations, it will be very hard to un-do these personal and sometimes down right frightening experiences.

[Falafel Combo]

One last thought. Let's talk about statistics and insurance companies. Do we have any statistics to support all these sensationalist videos? How many insurance companies do y know of that provide an incentive for putting winter tires on in snowy climates in the U.S.? Don't you think they would like to save a few bucks on claims?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

It's not like the winter tires will stop you dead in your tracks and all seasons take a half mile. As long as you drive judiciously and reasonably cautious for the surrounding weather conditions and vehicle load, most any tire with acceptable tread depth will stop your vehicle in a reasonable and very safe distance. Yes, one will be better than the other, but in my own experience, not significantly. Not even consistently.

Also please, no need to quote sensationalist videos on Jalopnik, where they pit a RWD e46 or FWD truck on snow tires, against SUVs on SUMMER tires. That's not relevant either.

A summer tire on snow or ice will not even back you out of your driveway. Huge difference between summer and all season.

Again, my observations are strictly applicable to daily driving tasks, doing maybe 30-50 mph, on a few inches of snow. 2-4 inches maybe.

But yes, after 6 straight New England winters and sometimes hilly terrains, in RWD, xDrive, FWD, snow tires, all seasons and summer tires in many different combinations, it will be very hard to un-do these personal and sometimes down right frightening experiences.

Nothing sensationalistic in those Four-season vs Winter tire tests:

In the 1st video: ~100 feet (31.5m) difference in braking from ~35mph (60km/h)

PS: As you stated, we can probably not change YOUR mind. However, there are other readers on the forum. For the sake of safety on the roads, I rather have those folks well informed on the benefits of winter tires and hopefully convince THEIR minds .

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

It's not like the winter tires will stop you dead in your tracks and all seasons take a half mile. As long as you drive judiciously and reasonably cautious for the surrounding weather conditions and vehicle load, most any tire with acceptable tread depth will stop your vehicle in a reasonable and very safe distance. Yes, one will be better than the other, but in my own experience, not significantly. Not even consistently.

Also please, no need to quote sensationalist videos on Jalopnik, where they pit a RWD e46 or FWD truck on snow tires, against SUVs on SUMMER tires. That's not relevant either.

A summer tire on snow or ice will not even back you out of your driveway. Huge difference between summer and all season.

Again, my observations are strictly applicable to daily driving tasks, doing maybe 30-50 mph, on a few inches of snow. 2-4 inches maybe.

But yes, after 6 straight New England winters and sometimes hilly terrains, in RWD, xDrive, FWD, snow tires, all seasons and summer tires in many different combinations, it will be very hard to un-do these personal and sometimes down right frightening experiences.

Sorry, was just a quick Google search at work. But the videos do seem to show how limited AWD is, which is all they purport to do. And since the cars on this forum come with summer tires as do other performance cars (awd or not) that people here cross shop, it is a useful comparison.

As for more scholarly fare, what about the article I cited? Or this one from a rag called popular mechanics?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...drive-15202862

Those are pretty specific to all seasons.

....or the many videos from Tirerack (thanks to CanAutM3 for posting those - had found them once upon a time but not when I posted earlier) showing the exact difference between all seasons or winters.

Are all seasons guaranteed death traps? No. As GrussGott noted, people drove RWD before winter tires for a while.

But your post was about which is safer and better and there is simply no rational basis to say all seasons on anything are better or safer.

It is really just chemistry (wrong rubber gets hard in cold) and physics (no grip and weight = problems). So, it is a bit ironic you say you can't be convinced here because this is actually a relatively objective fact/point that doesn't leave mich room for disagreement.......

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Nothing sensationalistic in those Four-season vs Winter tire tests:


PS: As you stated, we can probably not change YOUR mind. However, there are other readers on the forum. For the sake of safety on the roads, I rather have those folks well informed on the benefits of winter tires and hopefully convince THEIR minds .

Again, while somewhat informative, none of these tests are comparing allseason AWD vs RWD winter tires.

We already know that apples to apples, dedicated winter/snow tires will outperform all season tires, on snow or ice, given an identical drivetrain. Not making any news here.

I was specifically referencing my experiences and personal preference for AWD with all seasons VS RWD on snow tires. Do you have any cool videos to compare those two setups?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

Again, while somewhat informative, none of these tests are comparing allseason AWD vs RWD winter tires.

We already know that apples to apples, dedicated winter/snow tires will outperform all season tires, on snow or ice, given an identical drivetrain. Not making any news here.

I was specifically referencing my experiences and personal preference for AWD with all seasons VS RWD on snow tires. Do you have any cool videos to compare those two setups?

I was replying to your comment about braking distances (highlighted in red in your post).

AWD will not help you in braking.

all you want.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by myzmak

Sorry, was just a quick Google search at work. But the videos do seem to show how limited AWD is, which is all they purport to do. And since the cars on this forum come with summer tires as do other performance cars (awd or not) that people here cross shop, it is a useful comparison.

Just to summarize one more time, before I check out here.

In some random forum dudes opinion, the inconsistent "stopping" or "braking" gains to be had from snow tires on a RWD, are more than offset by the control, consistent handling, acceleration, confidence and reliability of an AWD car with all season tires.

No one is debating whether snow tires will perform better than A/S tires in the snow, apples to apples. Not even me.


Aaaaand I'm out.

v
v
v

Leave your responses here for the morning. I'll probably be snowed in at work anyways.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

Just to summarize one more time, before I check out here.

In some random forum dudes opinion, the inconsistent "stopping" or "braking" gains to be had from snow tires on a RWD, are more than offset by the control, consistent handling, acceleration, confidence and reliability of an AWD car with all season tires.

No one is debating whether snow tires will perform better than A/S tires in the snow, apples to apples. Not even me.


Aaaaand I'm out.

v
v
v

Leave your responses here for the morning. I'll probably be snowed in at work anyways.

Funny. Ok, for fun, here is another article.

http://www.wheels.ca/setting-the-rec...inter-driving/

But let's ignore the (many) scholarly articles and lets even set aside your (necessarily comparatively limited) personal experience.

As I said in my last post: how on earth do you argue with chemistry and physics?

It really is that simple and basic.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

I'll raise you one and say AWD with all season rubber is better than RWD with the best snow/ice tries money can buy, in every imaginable situation except for braking. Period!

My own personal experience and my flawed but very strongly help opinion.

Frankly, I don't really care what anyone else thinks, since they do not have the burden of traveling the roads which I do, nor will they have the responsibility of having "reliable" transportation to rush home to family when an emergency breaks out.

So really, this is not a topic which is open to debate in my mind. It's strictly a case by case judgement call based on location, topography, personal comfort level with being stuck in a ditch in sub freezing temperatures for an hour or two, and finally confidence with snow clearing efforts of your town and the ones you frequent.

Just no to all of this. No.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by Lups

Just no to all of this. No.

Originally Posted by myzmak

Funny. Ok, for fun, here is another article.
...
It really is that simple and basic.

Originally Posted by gthal

BIG snow today... 2 hour commute home (normally 15 minutes at most)... freezing rain, blowing snow. Lots of accidents and stuck cars. The Hakka R2 did really well. No problem going up very steep grades. Drove the car with DSC off the entire time and the car was super easy to control and modulate.

Please make sure you are sitting down before reading this.

I just want everyone to know that I am actually trying to be as objective as possible. I'm not doing any fanboi-ing here. I drive an xDrive 335 with A/S tires. I have an f80 on order. This time next year I will be driving a RWD with winter wheels, so I'm not just blindly defending one over the other. It's just been very true in my own experiences. Good or bad.

e46 330xi A/S
e90 330i snow tires
f30 335i xDrive A/S
e92 M3 ZCP summer
f30 335i xDrive A/S

The last snow storm I drove through in my e90 330i (RWD) with snow tires, it took me 4 hours to get home (normally 22 mins). I wanted to pee SOOOO bad, and I was getting stuck every few miles, whenever there was a slight gradient. The roads were not plowed too great, so it was the stuff of nightmares. At some point I got stuck again, going up hill. You know, that time when you're going uphill 20mph, trying to maintain whatever momentum you have and know if you stop, it's literally all downhill from there. Well, traffic came to a full stop. Facing uphill. COULD NOT LAUNCH IT! In fact my car kept sliding back and to the right every time I tried to launch it, that I finally came literally 2 inches away from the MASSIVE wheels of a parked (stuck) FEDEX truck!! I could see his gigantic wheels in my side mirrors, is how close I was. Still surprised I didn't actually pee myself just from that sight!

I literally came home that day, went to bed, woke up, called my CA to order the 335i xDrive.

So now, I currently daily drive an xDrive 335i f30 with all seasons but also frequently drive my wifes 2012 Outback 3.6R. I mean, OH MY GOD, there is such a difference in confidence, reliability, we-don't-care-about-the-weather kind of feeling when we take one of the all wheel drive cars. I don't care what the tests say. If it's raining outside and the weatherman on TV is telling me it's SUNNY, who do you think I'm believing??

I took her Outback on all seasons out yesterday around the block (for fun), in the middle of a northeastern 14 inch snow blizzard, and it could not be bothered. First time I EVER saw her traction lights come on. Seriously. I didn't even know she had traction lights.

Call me a bad driver or what have you (after 20 years driving and 10 of those exclusively in BMW's), but I would still hesitate to take my family out with me in my f80 on snow tires in less than ideal conditions, that's how little my confidence is in RWD snow.

It's the only thing that gives me cold sweats at night, making me want to change my order. Not the cloth seats. Not the Austin Yellow (why HELLLLLOOO there!), but the RWD in new england. Seriously. I'm nervous, and I'm hoping somehow the e90 330i was a derpy BMW with a bad choice of snow tires (Michelin Alpin), and the f80 will "somehow" prove to be better (with almost twice as much torque and power ).

So seriously. Secretly, I'm hoping you guys are correct, and I would be more than happy to be an ASS and come here and admit it publicly. But until that day, I'm sorry. You get burned by things in life, and you learn. Does not matter what anyone online says, writes or otherwise shows you
to be true. What your own eyes have seen and what you have witnessed for yourself will always be much more powerful. We all have different experiences, and conclusively form contrasting opinions and arrive at different conclusions based on said experiences. "Real-life testing" is what matters.

So why am I risking it all. Why am I ordering an f80? Because realistically speaking there are 4 months or winter weather around here, but really maybe 10 days per year where it's snowing pretty bad and I can't drive my car. I'm willing to take that downtime, in trade for not having to drive an AWD car all year round. I miss RWD. I like it better. AWD is awesome and all in bad weather, but it's a bit too safe and overkill for daily driving.

So I'm definitely admitting a compromise here in going RWD with snow tires (for 10 days a year I will be disadvantaged - boo-freakin-hoo!!), but the upside is also looking so much more positive!

Not trying to changes anyone's mind here, but giving you some perspective as to where I'm coming from.

Safe driving everyone, whatever your weapon of choice may be!

[Lups]

The post was too long to quote and my phone doesn't like me this morning.

I've always found awd harder to manage on any lose surface. With snow and ice, With actual winter tires, I would rather take my family which I am very fond of in my f82 than most awd's.

True, I haven't driven mine on snow yet. Not really. But unlike awd, I find it easier always to use the throttle to correct any steering issues that come with snow.

With awd, sure leaving from a stands still is easier, but when weather is really horrible, I'd consider the miles to cover the more important ones.

I am completely without coffee atm, so maybe I'm reading this all all wrong, and I admit my teacher on driving on different surfaces has been the fact that when I have fucked up, there has never been anyone to help me out. I've had a bit different training to this then.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

Please make sure you are sitting down before reading this.
.....

So now, I currently daily drive an xDrive 335i f30 with all seasons but also frequently drive my wifes 2012 Outback 3.6R. I mean, OH MY GOD, there is such a difference in confidence, reliability, we-don't-care-about-the-weather kind of feeling when we take one of the all wheel drive cars. I don't care what the tests say. If it's raining outside and the weatherman on TV is telling me it's SUNNY, who do you think I'm believing??


....

So seriously. Secretly, I'm hoping you guys are correct, and I would be more than happy to be an ASS and come here and admit it publicly. But until that day, I'm sorry. You get burned by things in life, and you learn. Does not matter what anyone online says, writes or otherwise shows you
to be true. What your own eyes have seen and what you have witnessed for yourself will always be much more powerful. We all have different experiences, and conclusively form contrasting opinions and arrive at different conclusions based on said experiences. "Real-life testing" is what matters.

Originally Posted by gthal

Falafel... The RWD F8X with good snow tires is manageable and fine in bad weather. Clearly, however, in bad weather I would choose to take my wife's Highlander as it is that much better again. It also has winter tires.

There was an X5 stuck at the bottom of my street this morning. I'm presuming it had all season tires but I don't know. I drove past it in my M4. Coming home last night, there was an AWD Ford Escape stuck on a very steep incline to my street... I'm assuming all seasons again. Again, I went past it in my M4 but I had a decent run and knew what I was doing.

Having said that, I would probably still choose my wife's AWD vehicle and all seasons in snow. On ice, maybe I wouldn't. I would choose my wife's AWD with winters in ALL conditions. However, with very good winter tires (not performance winters which are only marginally better than all seasons IMO), you can easily manage all but the very worst conditions in the M. Last night was a really bad storm with ice, freezing rain, etc and I was out in the worst of it without issue. Would I have chosen the Highlander if I could have? ABSOLUTELY. Was I fine? Yep.

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

Excellent. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your experiences and perspective. I am in total agreement with you, and am enthused to hear your winter trials in the f80 have been safe so far. It gives me a some amount of relief.

I'm sure I missed it, but which winter tires have you been running?

EDIT: Ok, I think I got it. They seem to be the Hakka R2. I'll remember that.

You seem a little back and forth on this man....

Again, understand you are set in your ways but for others reading this, I would have 2 things to say:

(1) gthal is correct (and you are right to agree with him) in observing that RWD w/ snow tires are better than AWD without.

(2) But gthal is also correct in his observations (and nobody here is disagreeing with him) in saying that AWD with snow tires is also better than RWD with snow tires.

But don't overlook the first point, which is where you got yourself offside a lot of us.

AWD gets you moving from a stop (which is why it sometimes 'feels' better than RWD with snows) but it doesn't help you corner more safely and it doesn't help you stop. Again, it is just chemistry and physics. Personal experiences just don't matter here, it is very basic science.

I live in a city full of large SUVs and drivers with all seasons who, like you, mistake the fact they can get going from a stop with control once moving. Inevitably, they are the first drivers in the ditch on a cold or snow day. While I think AWDs with snow are great, frankly, I think AWD with all seasons are dangerous because they give this illusion of control and confidence to drivers (as exemplified in your post) and that leads to trouble...

To put it another way, the hierarchy would likely look like this:

#1 - AWD with winter tires
#2 - RWD/FWD with winter tires (probably edge to FWD, but RWD can work too)

(gthal has significant issues with all performance winter tires...I would take issue and say it depends very much on which set of winters. They aren't all the same, even in the performance category)

<significant gap>

#3 - AWD with all seasons

<another gap>

#4 - FWD/RWD with all seasons

<another gap>

#5 - anything with summer tires (which, for the F8X crowd here, would include our stock Michelin PSS)

<huge gap>

#6 - anything recommended by Pete Carroll with the game on the line (sorry, couldn't resist that one...)

[brianeck]

Originally Posted by myzmak

#6 - anything recommended by Pete Carroll with the game on the line (sorry, couldn't resist that one...)

Hahaha very nice. What a crap call, my $1000 superbowl box was on the line for a Seahawks TD right there! What a heart breaker.

[gthal]

I'm quoted a lot in this thread but didn't even post in it

For what little it is worth, here is my ranking (best to worse)...

Forward traction:

1. AWD with winter tires
2. AWD with very good AS tires
3. RWD with snow/ice tires (but maybe #2 in some situations)
4. RWD with performance winter tires
5. RWD with AS tires

Cornering and braking:

1. AWD or RWD with winter tires... I might give the edge to RWD as you can steer with the throttle easier.
2. RWD with performance winter tires
3. AWD or RWD with AS seasons... again, maybe with an advantage to RWD

Other factors...

1. Depth of snow (low cars snow plow more)
2. Width of tire (narrower is better in snow)
3. Type of snow (wet/slush/ice/powder) as it impacts the tire choice
4. Number of hills (less hills and AWD becomes less relevant)
5. Driver experience/ability... ability to drive with DSC off is important for traction and fun as hell in the snow

To me, AWD with AS tires is less effective (overall) than RWD with good snow tires. It is better to get moving (sometimes... depending on conditions) but won't turn or stop as well. I suppose if you live in a really hilly area where getting going is a concern a lot, then maybe that one characteristic is more important than the others. I guess it depends on where you live. Having said that, try AS tires when it is -10 out on ice... they are like hockey pucks and AWD won't save you then

P.S. myzmak I don't hate performance winter tires, necessarily, and I do agree some in the category are better than others I just find that for traction in deep, wet and icy snow they aren't as good as a true snow/ice winter tire. Where I live, there are LOTS of hills and they make it tough. I need to go up a 30 degree grade to get to my house and they are less than optimal in that. However, for 85% of driving, they are better. For me, I like knowing the 15% is taken care of. All about preference and personal importance

[Falafel Combo]

Ok seriously, this title is hilarious! But why is it OK for mods to separate my posts into new threads ...

Hmmm ... weird ...

Activist mods, I guess?

[karussell]

all season tires are compromised all season long any season. our x5 we got with all seasons in germany my wife managed to spin going up a small hill covered in ice and slush. i could drive straight up it in my m3 on mpsa2's. summer tires for summer. snow tires for winter. seen way too many people stuck in ditches with their SUV's thinking they are invincible in the snow bc of awd.

so awd with all seasons only braking is not better? well that can't be that important right?

for all of your anecdotal experience it only takes the one time to be wrong. you aren't confident with RWD on snow tires, then either do some training so you are more confident or stick to AWD and get proper tires. outside of a timed competition there is nothing you shouldn't be able to do in a RWD street car that an AWD street car can do given proper ground clearance. For me I drive with DSC off and carefully manage the cars momentum. I spent 4 winters in Germany with an M3 and never been stuck including driving to a ski lodge in the alps. After the mishap with the X5 on all seasons I junked them and put proper tires on that as well.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by karussell

all season tires are compromised all season long any season. our x5 we got with all seasons in germany my wife managed to spin going up a small hill covered in ice and slush. i could drive straight up it in my m3 on mpsa2's. summer tires for summer. snow tires for winter. seen way too many people stuck in ditches with their SUV's thinking they are invincible in the snow bc of awd.

so awd with all seasons only braking is not better? well that can't be that important right?

for all of your anecdotal experience it only takes the one time to be wrong. you aren't confident with RWD on snow tires, then either do some training so you are more confident or stick to AWD and get proper tires. outside of a timed competition there is nothing you shouldn't be able to do in a RWD street car that an AWD street car can do given proper ground clearance. For me I drive with DSC off and carefully manage the cars momentum. I spent 4 winters in Germany with an M3 and never been stuck including driving to a ski lodge in the alps. After the mishap with the X5 on all seasons I junked them and put proper tires on that as well.

What he said...

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by gthal

I'm quoted a lot in this thread but didn't even post in it

hahaha. yeah, mods working their magic and splitting this thread off from the main one (which you did post in)

P.S. myzmak I don't hate performance winter tires, necessarily, and I do agree some in the category are better than others I just find that for traction in deep, wet and icy snow they aren't as good as a true snow/ice winter tire. Where I live, there are LOTS of hills and they make it tough. I need to go up a 30 degree grade to get to my house and they are less than optimal in that. However, for 85% of driving, they are better. For me, I like knowing the 15% is taken care of. All about preference and personal importance

I know, and I agree (and I think we've had this discussion)

If you are driving on a lot of snow and ice, I would get hard core winters instead of performance.

If you are driving on a bit of snow and a little ice, but more just cold and dry and/or wet, I would go performance winters.

I am much more the latter here in Calgary (though it is hilly and we can get snow, more days of driving on wet/dry pavement than deep snow)

But our weather is also just nucking futs. ie: here is what I am looking at in next 7 days



...and here it is in imperial units for those of you still living in the dark ages



I mean, honestly, talk about dealing with some big swings.........

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Falafel Combo

Ok seriously, this title is hilarious! But why is it OK for mods to separate my posts into new threads ...

Hmmm ... weird ...

Activist mods, I guess?

Wait, mods can move posts now? Since when? Next you'll tell me that they can delete posts too, or even ban people.

You obviously have some passion on the topic and want to share so this is your opportunity. However, it was going off-topic real quick so I create a new thread for you. I was having some fun with the thread title, you are free to change it as you see fit (provided it is within forum rules).

Have a ball.

[KingOfJericho]

Best car (non-SUV) I've driven in the snow was my 135i with snow tires. My S4 with all seasons didn't hold a candle to it. I was actually shocked at how poorly the Audi performed in the white stuff.