[KoenG]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

M xDrive is not the same as the xDrive in an M240i or X3. And it’s worlds apart from Quattro in an RS3 or whatever. How many people here have actually driven an M xDrive car hard in 4WD Sport (M3, M4, M5, M8)?

I did, and although I was totally opposed to the idea of an AWD M, it totally won me over. Even when it was not raining, it did.

The F90 felt lighter and nimbler with increasing speed, It was possible to accelerate hard before apex and it went exactly where I wanted it, at a T-junction, just put your foot down and it slingshots you out of it. I was afraid the steering feel would be compromised, by all this torque dispatched to the front axle, but it didn't. Also it felt neutral at all times. I remember I was totally flabbergasted with this experience, three years back. Since that day, I've changed religion.

[Supadice]

Originally Posted by 6speed_M2

It needs the xDrive! M2 + xDrive + race gas tune

Shame

[italiabrain]

I think the addition of the M version of X drive as an option that is not paired with trim level or anything else is all positives, but that wouldn’t be the case.

Those who want it can also disable it and have RWD dynamics with little added weight

Those who don’t want it lose nothing except:

My problem with Mx drive is how BMW have implemented it in a tiered system on the M3/4. I would prefer a competition or CS if I was getting an M3/4, except that both of those mandate AWD, which mandates the ZF auto. Because a subset of people really want AWD that then indirectly kills manual sales, which does affect those of us who want a manual.

I have an F90 comp and I can say it’s the best AWD system I’ve driven by far. It’s truly rear-biased and the transfer of torque to the front is seamless on dry roads. On lower traction surfaces you can feel the transition some when it happens more abruptly. It also completely disables if you want to hoon around.

The BMW tuning on the ZF8 is also the best torque converter box I’ve ever driven. If you’re someone who can deal with (or who likes) autos, I’m sure it’ll be fine in the M2 as well, but I’m really itching to get back into a manual after having the M5 for a few years. The slight delay for paddle inputs and automatic downshifting when slowing really bother me (sometimes causing a double downshift when I’m off the gas and use the paddle to do the same thing not realizing the car already has). But it’s also better than others’ tuning of the ZF8 and worlds better than the Aisin box my wife has.

As far as M RWD traction, it’s good on a flat well-maintained surface with warm tires. I have a freeway ramp on the way home from work that slopes down to the freeway and is too close to the parking garage to have any heat in the tires, even when it’s warm out. The M5 will reliably break out the rear from a second gear roll and sometimes in 3rd… and this is dry pavement, 80 degree weather. I’m fine with that, but sometimes you just want to put the hammer down and merge. There’s something to be said for the Jekyll/Hyde created with the M shortcuts and Mx drive.

[omasou]

Originally Posted by buckybadger

Given the power and performance numbers of modern cars, I think we need xdrive for confident driving.

In the past, these cars were not as powerful as today, and the Xdrive was an overkill. But today it makes sense to utilize all the power in a confident manner.

Won't stop the unskilled from turning off the nannies and sliding into the trees.

[omasou]

Originally Posted by G80M4

always thought the M2 is a strange beast. similar weight as the M4 but much less power.

Perhaps the M4C has more peak power but it's near/at redline. It does start to increase around 5700ish but by then both cars are way down the road. On a track one would need a fairly long straightaway to appreciate the extra HP, which will be used trying to catch up to the M2C b/c of it's agility in the previous corner.

The usable day to day HP is almost identical.

https://bluesparkautomotive.com/proj...4c-m2c-testing

[G30M]

Bluespark I need thee for my car!

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by italiabrain

I think the addition of the M version of X drive as an option that is not paired with trim level or anything else is all positives, but that wouldn’t be the case.

Those who want it can also disable it and have RWD dynamics with little added weight

Those who don’t want it lose nothing except:

My problem with Mx drive is how BMW have implemented it in a tiered system on the M3/4. I would prefer a competition or CS if I was getting an M3/4, except that both of those mandate AWD, which mandates the ZF auto. Because a subset of people really want AWD that then indirectly kills manual sales, which does affect those of us who want a manual.

I have an F90 comp and I can say it’s the best AWD system I’ve driven by far. It’s truly rear-biased and the transfer of torque to the front is seamless on dry roads. On lower traction surfaces you can feel the transition some when it happens more abruptly. It also completely disables if you want to hoon around.

The BMW tuning on the ZF8 is also the best torque converter box I’ve ever driven. If you’re someone who can deal with (or who likes) autos, I’m sure it’ll be fine in the M2 as well, but I’m really itching to get back into a manual after having the M5 for a few years. The slight delay for paddle inputs and automatic downshifting when slowing really bother me (sometimes causing a double downshift when I’m off the gas and use the paddle to do the same thing not realizing the car already has). But it’s also better than others’ tuning of the ZF8 and worlds better than the Aisin box my wife has.

As far as M RWD traction, it’s good on a flat well-maintained surface with warm tires. I have a freeway ramp on the way home from work that slopes down to the freeway and is too close to the parking garage to have any heat in the tires, even when it’s warm out. The M5 will reliably break out the rear from a second gear roll and sometimes in 3rd… and this is dry pavement, 80 degree weather. I’m fine with that, but sometimes you just want to put the hammer down and merge. There’s something to be said for the Jekyll/Hyde created with the M shortcuts and Mx drive.

two remarks:
1. the tiering you discuss is more engine output driven than A/RWD. The manual transmission can't cope with more than 550Nm. A lot of forum members would like to see their niche version of the M manual they prefer, but I believe we have to be happy we still get ONE variant. Worldwide MT represents the small minority and bean counters want to ditch it to reduce costs every occassion they can!
2. You want to get back into a MT to be more connected? You might be in for a negative surprise, the ZF shifts 20 times faster than the mediocre manual they provide. Also, shifting down (even with heel-toe) requires a lot of time, certainly compared to a simple flick of your right foot with the ZF. The haptical experience from shifting is only average at best and the clutch travel is way too long with a high positioned clutch grip point in that travel. So yes, a short throw box with a short travel clutch would be nice, butI'am afraid you need to get a Honda for that.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by KoenG

An M2 Xdrive wouldn't ressemble an RS3 at all in driving dynamics.

Strange that so many still seem convinced that AWD systems always have to compromise the driving dynamics. I thought that the M5/3 Xdrive made abundantly clear by now that this is not always the case.

Agreed

Quattro be damned

All you have to do is turn-off DSC, then xDrive really goes to work

[m3number86]

Originally Posted by Nachbar

The guy driving in this video (Daniel Abt) is a Audi Tuner. Likely the best in Europe since ever. And he is verry impressed, how good BMW M driving dynamics are. The guy sitting next to him, is the Chief of BMW M Suspension, Dampers and stuff. He does the harmonizing, calibration etc. of every BMW M. Since years.

Theyre no Albert Biermann though! Lol

[m3number86]

Originally Posted by KoenG

two remarks:
1. the tiering you discuss is more engine output driven than A/RWD. The manual transmission can't cope with more than 550Nm. A lot of forum members would like to see their niche version of the M manual they prefer, but I believe we have to be happy we still get ONE variant. Worldwide MT represents the small minority and bean counters want to ditch it to reduce costs every occassion they can!
2. You want to get back into a MT to be more connected? You might be in for a negative surprise, the ZF shifts 20 times faster than the mediocre manual they provide. Also, shifting down (even with heel-toe) requires a lot of time, certainly compared to a simple flick of your right foot with the ZF. The haptical experience from shifting is only average at best and the clutch travel is way too long with a high positioned clutch grip point in that travel. So yes, a short throw box with a short travel clutch would be nice, butI'am afraid you need to get a Honda for that.

That sounds so boring lol

Ppl are driving gt3 manuals. It's the connection not the technology. The technology is undeniably great though.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by selkies

I thought it was interesting when the engineer hesitated a bit when the topic of weight was brought up around the 8:45 mark. It really makes you wonder how much heavier the new G87 M2 will be.

According to Car Magazine weight is estimated to be around 1810kg, approx 250kg (550lbs) heavier than the CS and 200kg (440lbs) heavier than the M2C.

I reckon it will be more like the G82 to drive. Supremely capable and a lot more refined which is what most people prefer these days. It's also why I will keep my current M2 forever.

[akkando]

I think given the weight and size increases I'm more likely to get an m3 this time around. If it's going to be this fat, a longer less playful wheelbase, it might as well have four doors and come with more power.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

G80/F90 xDrive can be turned off with the press of a button so the cars drive exactly like any other RWD BMW (except for the small weight penalty). It’s literally the best of both worlds. Most other brands make you buy two cars.

It’s a myth that BMW M cars are constant in any other way than the general design brief of a daily usable performance car based on the standard Series cars. M cars have always used whatever designs and technologies best help them achieve the described brief. I4, I6, V8, turbos. Manual, SMG, DCT, auto. RWD, toggle-able AWD. 2-door, 4-door, convertible, wagon.

Everyone just wants more of the same from the most recent generation since that’s what they got used to and liked and maybe even aspired to for the past 5 or so years.

I don't want to be carrying around a heavy ass AWD system at all times whether it's switched on or not.

I'd imagine this car will already be sitting around ~3800 lbs as is. An AWD variant M2 would tip 4000 lbs, that would be the definition of contradictory.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

I don't want to be carrying around a heavy ass AWD system at all times whether it's switched on or not.

I'd imagine this car will already be sitting around ~3800 lbs as is. An AWD variant M2 would tip 4000 lbs, that would be the definition of contradictory.

The Xdrive in the G80 weights 110lbs. this is an extra advantage of the BMW Xdrive system. The extra weight for an Audi A4 is 165 lbs. since it requires more hardware to convert a FWD to AWD.

[m3number86]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Let me ask you this? What's wrong with an RS3? It can easily be track driven and drifted now...

Drifted? Or gimmick drifted?

Just watched a video on it. It looks like all its doing is spinning tires to compensate for terminal understeer lol

[italiabrain]

Originally Posted by KoenG

two remarks:
1. the tiering you discuss is more engine output driven than A/RWD. The manual transmission can't cope with more than 550Nm. A lot of forum members would like to see their niche version of the M manual they prefer, but I believe we have to be happy we still get ONE variant. Worldwide MT represents the small minority and bean counters want to ditch it to reduce costs every occassion they can!

It's both. They don't offer AWD on the base manual M3 or M4 either. I agree with you though in the sense that they basically made an agreement with the bean counters to keep and do EPA certs for the manual, but only if they put zero R&D into it being any better than the outgoing model. I could be wrong, but I didn't think the manual being used in the M3/M4 was compatible with AWD as is. I agree they're only going to put the effort into doing one trim level -- I just wish it was the top trim, or at least the top of the volume trims.

Originally Posted by KoenG

2. You want to get back into a MT to be more connected? You might be in for a negative surprise, the ZF shifts 20 times faster than the mediocre manual they provide. Also, shifting down (even with heel-toe) requires a lot of time, certainly compared to a simple flick of your right foot with the ZF. The haptical experience from shifting is only average at best and the clutch travel is way too long with a high positioned clutch grip point in that travel. So yes, a short throw box with a short travel clutch would be nice, butI'am afraid you need to get a Honda for that.

I don't think this has been a surprise to anyone not living under a rock for the last decade or two and I certainly didn't suggest otherwise. It's engagement / control / experience. I've only owned two autos. I'm well aware.

Further it's not an argument for the auto being the slushbox they've gone with. DCTs are even better in all those categories. The BMW implementation of the ZF8 is the best of the slushboxes... but it is not a PDK and it is certainly not a 3 pedal.

For me personally I looked at the M3/M4 but between confining the manual to the base, continuing the old mediocre manual without any development, and that front end -- I'm out.

Tried for a GT3, but I'm not paying $100k over sticker and I'm not some "influencer" with connections to get one without getting screwed.

Ended up putting in an order for an Emira, we'll see how that goes with Lotus' history -- a topic for a different forum

Was following the M2 primarily as a backup for that. Now, if they made an M2 with both mX AWD and a manual, then that could be an interesting proposition for a 4-season car.... that's all. They won't so it's moot.

The next car will be a manual -- that was decided long before the brand or even the number of doors. I'd get a Civic before I got an M2 with an auto personally.

[m3number86]

Originally Posted by italiabrain

It's both. They don't offer AWD on the base manual M3 or M4 either. I agree with you though in the sense that they basically made an agreement with the bean counters to keep and do EPA certs for the manual, but only if they put zero R&D into it being any better than the outgoing model. I could be wrong, but I didn't think the manual being used in the M3/M4 was compatible with AWD as is. I agree they're only going to put the effort into doing one trim level -- I just wish it was the top trim, or at least the top of the volume trims.

I don't think this has been a surprise to anyone not living under a rock for the last decade or two and I certainly didn't suggest otherwise. It's engagement / control / experience. I've only owned two autos. I'm well aware.

Further it's not an argument for the auto being the slushbox they've gone with. DCTs are even better in all those categories. The BMW implementation of the ZF8 is the best of the slushboxes... but it is not a PDK and it is certainly not a 3 pedal.

For me personally I looked at the M3/M4 but between confining the manual to the base, continuing the old mediocre manual without any development, and that front end -- I'm out.

Tried for a GT3, but I'm not paying $100k over sticker and I'm not some "influencer" with connections to get one without getting screwed.

Ended up putting in an order for an Emira, we'll see how that goes with Lotus' history -- a topic for a different forum

Was following the M2 primarily as a backup for that. Now, if they made an M2 with both mX AWD and a manual, then that could be an interesting proposition for a 4-season car.... that's all. They won't so it's moot.

The next car will be a manual -- that was decided long before the brand or even the number of doors. I'd get a Civic before I got an M2 with an auto personally.

Whens the emira delivery?

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by italiabrain

It's both. They don't offer AWD on the base manual M3 or M4 either. I agree with you though in the sense that they basically made an agreement with the bean counters to keep and do EPA certs for the manual, but only if they put zero R&D into it being any better than the outgoing model. I could be wrong, but I didn't think the manual being used in the M3/M4 was compatible with AWD as is. I agree they're only going to put the effort into doing one trim level -- I just wish it was the top trim, or at least the top of the volume trims.

I don't think this has been a surprise to anyone not living under a rock for the last decade or two and I certainly didn't suggest otherwise. It's engagement / control / experience. I've only owned two autos. I'm well aware.

Further it's not an argument for the auto being the slushbox they've gone with. DCTs are even better in all those categories. The BMW implementation of the ZF8 is the best of the slushboxes... but it is not a PDK and it is certainly not a 3 pedal.

For me personally I looked at the M3/M4 but between confining the manual to the base, continuing the old mediocre manual without any development, and that front end -- I'm out.

Tried for a GT3, but I'm not paying $100k over sticker and I'm not some "influencer" with connections to get one without getting screwed.

Ended up putting in an order for an Emira, we'll see how that goes with Lotus' history -- a topic for a different forum

Was following the M2 primarily as a backup for that. Now, if they made an M2 with both mX AWD and a manual, then that could be an interesting proposition for a 4-season car.... that's all. They won't so it's moot.

The next car will be a manual -- that was decided long before the brand or even the number of doors. I'd get a Civic before I got an M2 with an auto personally.

Civic ⁉️

Hilarious 😂 😷 🤣

[stylinexpat]

New M2 is going to be very nice..

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by italiabrain

The next car will be a manual -- that was decided long before the brand or even the number of doors. I'd get a Civic before I got an M2 with an auto personally.

I love manuals. But...

Oh my....

[italiabrain]

Originally Posted by m3number86

Whens the emira delivery?

They say December, so maybe by March?

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

Civic ⁉️

Hilarious 😂 😷 🤣

I really mean it. There's just an inherent contradiction to me between a torque converter and a performance car. I understand it's not a common opinion or that it bothers others to a lesser degree, but I would really rather daily an SI or R than an M2 auto, not joking one bit. Maybe a WRX GT would be a better example? I'd rather daily a non-luxury mark with a manual generally than a luxury/sport torque converter.

Originally Posted by M2PDX

I love manuals. But...

Oh my....

The build quality and local service on my M5 has left me with zero brand loyalty. It's fast. The ride is good. The interior design is nice without being over the top. The AWD system is phenomenally good. The automatic is good for an automatic, but it just isn't there in terms of engagement or theater. It overrides you on down shifts. There's a delay on paddle response. Launch control requires putting it in manual mode for it to shift automatically. It does change gears noticeably faster than a manual on the single gear upshifts (but everything does these days). On the other extreme, the M-tuning doesn't have an eco+ mode to "clutch" and coast down long hills while traveling the way my wife's non-M does. I think smoothing out a DCT compatible with AWD would be a much better overall solution.

If they made an M5 that I could truly drive 4 seasons AND have a manual I'd keep it forever and pay someone outside BMW to take it apart and fix all the rattles that my local dealer can't or won't... In that respect it's the worst car I've ever owned. The surprise that paying for "full leather" didn't even include the full door card, or that mine was the year they decided that carplay was actually a subscription service, or that they had quietly removed passenger dimming mirrors in the US after around 2017 at any price/package, were just cherries on top of endless rattles. So yeah, all in all I really did choose engagement first including transmission after being severely disappointed by choosing largely by brand. I previously might've been scared off by the prospect of something like endless rattles buying something like a Lotus, but I spent $126k on a new Bimmer and I've had it to the dealer 4 times for rattles and it's still so incredibly annoying... The current one sounds like the 3rd brake light and it's so rattly the factory exhaust noise is enough to get a continuous buzz going on startup.

[ihbase]

Kinda makes you want to consider the next gen Mustang, and de-badge it.