[T_U_D]

It is a sad reality, but EV M vehicles are coming.

https://bmwi.bimmerpost.com/forums/s....php?t=1977277

[T_U_D]

BTW, The funny thing is it is being towed with a E53 X5.

[JustinHEMI]

Yep, which is why I'm likely not going to be dissuaded by interest rates and such when buying the G87. Last fully ICE M manual car, IMO.

[DSTR]

This is hardly news. Look forward not back. The world is not about to end for drivers at all. We will enjoy new experiences and vehicles.

[JustinHEMI]

Originally Posted by DSTR

This is hardly news. Look forward not back. The world is not about to end for drivers at all. We will enjoy new experiences and vehicles.

Not me. I'll never own an EV, or any version of them (hybrids, mild hybrids, etc).

[Tag]

Originally Posted by DSTR

This is hardly news. Look forward not back. The world is not about to end for drivers at all. We will enjoy new experiences and vehicles.

Point is ICE cars are going away. EVs are sterile in my experience and have no soul. Yeah, they're fast, but aside from handling I feel zero connection to them. There's no MT and even though they are AT they don't have gears to shift. Obviously, there's no exhaust sound which is a big deal too. I get things are changing, no disagreement there. Doesn't mean the driver experience and engagement will be better.

I've used this analogy with friends when trying to explain why I don't like how EVs drive when compared to ICE cars. It's like having a digital watch. It doesn't have the same charm or novelty as a mechanical watch that's uses real gears and a spring with that classic tick, tick, tick per second. A self-winding one will automatically wind up simply by the motion of your wrist. Sure, you can buy a cheaper digital quartz watch that is far more accurate, but that's not the point. There's an appeal to a mechanical watch that a digital one cannot match, and the market shows that. ICE cars are like mechanical watches, but their days are numbered. Get 'em while you can!

[T_U_D]

Originally Posted by DSTR

This is hardly news. Look forward not back. The world is not about to end for drivers at all. We will enjoy new experiences and vehicles.

The current EV experience is exceptionally lackluster and that is me putting it kindly. The EV infrastructure within the United States is absolutely horrible and unless you purchase/own a Tesla you are SOL until the Feds get off their ass. No way in hell the U.S. will be ready to go full EV by 2035.

[Albator_IIII]

Originally Posted by T_U_D

It is a sad reality, but EV M vehicles are coming.

https://bmwi.bimmerpost.com/forums/s....php?t=1977277

Sad indeed.

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

Yep, which is why I'm likely not going to be dissuaded by interest rates and such when buying the G87. Last fully ICE M manual car, IMO.

Ditto.

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

Not me. I'll never own an EV, or any version of them (hybrids, mild hybrids, etc).

Same.

Originally Posted by Tag

Point is ICE cars are going away. EVs are sterile in my experience and have no soul. Yeah, they're fast, but aside from handling I feel zero connection to them. There's no MT and even though they are AT they don't have gears to shift. Obviously, there's no exhaust sound which is a big deal too. I get things are changing, no disagreement there. Doesn't mean the driver experience and engagement will be better.

I've used this analogy with friends when trying to explain why I don't like how EVs drive when compared to ICE cars. It's like having a digital watch. It doesn't have the same charm or novelty as a mechanical watch that's uses real gears and a spring with that classic tick, tick, tick per second. A self-winding one will automatically wind up simply by the motion of your wrist. Sure, you can buy a cheaper digital quartz watch that is far more accurate, but that's not the point. There's an appeal to a mechanical watch that a digital one cannot match, and the market shows that. ICE cars are like mechanical watches, but their days are numbered. Get 'em while you can!

That is my thinking as well. EV might have their edge in certain regards but IMHO, they lack "soul".

Maybe I am just a dinosaur. As least for now, I have never yelled at clouds.

[blueray_ms]

Originally Posted by Tag

I've used this analogy with friends when trying to explain why I don't like how EVs drive when compared to ICE cars. It's like having a digital watch. It doesn't have the same charm or novelty as a mechanical watch that's uses real gears and a spring with that classic tick, tick, tick per second. A self-winding one will automatically wind up simply by the motion of your wrist. Sure, you can buy a cheaper digital quartz watch that is far more accurate, but that's not the point. There's an appeal to a mechanical watch that a digital one cannot match, and the market shows that. ICE cars are like mechanical watches, but their days are numbered. Get 'em while you can!

I believe ICE cars will continue to exist, for the few that can afford them, just as quality mechanical watches continue to exist.

But for the masses that really just want to get from A to B (know the time), EVs will be the norm, albeit priced so the majority hire them as needed or use public transport.

At the risk of getting political, the vision appears to be removing the need for any form of motorised transport for day to day needs with smart cities/zones where everything is available within 15mins.

[Game]

We knew it was coming...part of the reason we're all clamoring for the G87.

That being said, at least it looks pretty badass.

I'd love an EV for a daily. I could charge it free at work every day.

[zero21]

I happen to believe ICE cars will be around for awhile with synthetic fuels running them and a strong case against environmental regulation shutdown. They will just be made by boutique companies who charge lots of money for them, or will be halo cars by existing brands who charge lots of money for them.

There's too much oil infrastructure for business owners across the world to just say fuck it, I'm going to demo my business and invest in all new stuff? I don't see that happening. It will be a slow transition for 20-30yrs for most of the public, and zero transition for conservative car people.

I will likely own an electric assisted ICE car as my next daily (2024 BMW 5 5series) and see zero no harm in doing so. I think it's kind of stupid to deliberately try to get bad mileage and not give a fuck. ICE cars driven with few miles still represent better environmental cases than electric cars with low miles. If you add in synthetic fuels, the case gets even better.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by zero21

I happen to believe ICE cars will be around for awhile with synthetic fuels running them and a strong case against environmental regulation shutdown. They will just be made by boutique companies who charge lots of money for them, or will be halo cars by existing brands who charge lots of money for them.

I think synthetic fuel for ICE vehicles will be around for a long time, but the cost may be too high for day-to-day use. True carbon-neutral e-fuels require a lot more electricity to produce than the energy extracted from the fuel (using CO2 extracted from the air and H2 from electrolysis), the processes are likely to be as costly as producing synthetic oil base stock, so could easily be 5x the current petroleum-based fuel cost.

[deladude]

Originally Posted by T_U_D

The current EV experience is exceptionally lackluster and that is me putting it kindly. The EV infrastructure within the United States is absolutely horrible and unless you purchase/own a Tesla you are SOL until the Feds get off their ass. No way in hell the U.S. will be ready to go full EV by 2035.

I did a short road trip in my buddy's new Rivian over the weekend and the charging experience was eye opening. Its the main reason I wont even consider one but it was even worse than I expected. First you have to deal with the people who will unplug your car to charge their own if left unattended. Then the chargers themselves are terribly inconsistent, whether their availability is incorrectly reported or they dont charge at the rate they advertise. And no one is attending these stations to prevent shenanigans so I just don't see how this scales up on the current trajectory. Its crazy to me how fast evs are coming out with such little infrastructure to support them.

Also, I priced out an i4 build the other day along side my M2 build and guess which one is cheaper. . .

[spool twice]

Originally Posted by deladude

I did a short road trip in my buddy's new Rivian over the weekend and the charging experience was eye opening. Its the main reason I wont even consider one but it was even worse than I expected. First you have to deal with the people who will unplug your car to charge their own if left unattended. Then the chargers themselves are terribly inconsistent, whether their availability is incorrectly reported or they dont charge at the rate they advertise. And no one is attending these stations to prevent shenanigans so I just don't see how this scales up on the current trajectory. Its crazy to me how fast evs are coming out with such little infrastructure to support them.

Also, I priced out an i4 build the other day along side my M2 build and guess which one is cheaper. . .

Interesting, Most if not all EV's won't allow you to unplug the charger unless you unlock the car.

Also, the i4 is comparable to its gasoline counterpart in pricing, the 4-series GC.

But yes, anything other than a Tesla Supercharging station is questionable on a road trip for an EV.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by deladude

I did a short road trip in my buddy's new Rivian over the weekend and the charging experience was eye opening. Its the main reason I wont even consider one but it was even worse than I expected. First you have to deal with the people who will unplug your car to charge their own if left unattended. Then the chargers themselves are terribly inconsistent, whether their availability is incorrectly reported or they dont charge at the rate they advertise. And no one is attending these stations to prevent shenanigans so I just don't see how this scales up on the current trajectory. Its crazy to me how fast evs are coming out with such little infrastructure to support them.

Also, I priced out an i4 build the other day along side my M2 build and guess which one is cheaper. . .

Wait, what? I thought the charger locks on until it's done, or until you unlock it from the car?

[spool twice]

Originally Posted by Tag

Wait, what? I thought the charger locks on until it's done, or until you unlock it from the car?

they do, but perhaps Rivian is an exception?

[spool twice]

To be honest, after driving an i4 M50 around cones at a BMW Ultimate Drive Event, it's pretty good to where I do look forward to real E-M vehicles. The G-series chassis is BMW's best modern chassis after following a rather dude F-series (I had one, so I can say that).

That's not to say an ICE M shouldn't be around, but the future isn't as bad as I thought it would be and that was just an M-performance model and not a real M model. I look forward to whatever the market takes us. In the meantime, I'll sit patiently for a 2nd model year M2 or an LCI M2, waiting for the other "variants" to be released to replace my TT RS.

[KevinC]

“M” used to stand for “Motorsport”. For years now it’s stood for “Marketing”.

[KC87ZB]

Originally Posted by aerobod

I think synthetic fuel for ICE vehicles will be around for a long time, but the cost may be too high for day-to-day use. True carbon-neutral e-fuels require a lot more electricity to produce than the energy extracted from the fuel (using CO2 extracted from the air and H2 from electrolysis), the processes are likely to be as costly as producing synthetic oil base stock, so could easily be 5x the current petroleum-based fuel cost.

This is where ICE cars are going to be - with synthetic fuels. If you look at infrastructure requirements for charging, the impacts of lithium for batteries, etc. current EV's are not the environmental solution so many sheep think they are. Synthetic fuels.

[deladude]

Originally Posted by spool twice

Interesting, Most if not all EV's won't allow you to unplug the charger unless you unlock the car.

Yeah I was rather surprised by that. I'm pretty sure it was a Chevy Volt that was in the charging spot when we pulled up and there was another small EV that had blocked it in and was using its charging station. It was obviously not condoned because we watched the argument go down when the lady came back before the guy was done using her charger. She was pissed!

[zero21]

Originally Posted by deladude

Yeah I was rather surprised by that. I'm pretty sure it was a Chevy Volt that was in the charging spot when we pulled up and there was another small EV that had blocked it in and was using its charging station. It was obviously not condoned because we watched the argument go down when the lady came back before the guy was done using her charger. She was pissed!

They should do a Grand Tour style Maury show traveling to "hot beds" of EV infrastructure where smug runs high, featuring charging feuds and play it on Discovery.

[02M3ForMe]

There haven't been any real sports car EVs yet at non-hypercar prices. Heck, I'm not sure if there's a single EV coupe on the market. Taycan is the closest we've got to a sports EV, and it's a great driving experience. I'm not worried about the move to EV for enthusiast cars. I trust M and others to get it right.

If the only ICE cars you've ever seen are SUVs and commuter/family sedans, you'd think ICE sucks, too.