[OUGrad05]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

My mistake, but I wasn’t speaking for Georgia but rather everywhere. And turns out it is the refinery capacity issues more than taxes

Yes it is indeed sir.

[msej449]

Originally Posted by NGT2

... it would be one thing if it solved a problem. But it doesn’t. That’s my issue with the regulation. It’s unjustified.

It sovles the problem of global heating and catastrophic climate change.

So I suspect that is where we're going to disagree. Because as a scientist, I give credence to the science that shows we're headed for climate catastrophe, unless we take immediate countermeasures. One of which is to ditch ICE cars.

[msej449]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

People here are mainly buying EVs because gas prices are out of control. And the gas prices are out of control because of taxes. The dollar is as strong as ever, and a barrel of oil is $40 lower than it was 10 years ago. $80 v $120. What changed? Taxes.

From Wikipedia: The United States federal excise tax on gasoline is 18.4 cents per gallon and 24.4 cents per gallon for diesel fuel. Proceeds from the tax partly support the Highway Trust Fund. The federal tax was last raised October 1, 1993 and is not indexed to inflation, which increased 93% from 1993 until 2022. On average, as of April 2019, state and local taxes and fees add 34.24 cents to gasoline and 35.89 cents to diesel .... That's on a gallon of fuel costing between $4 and $5.

I don't see that as 'out of control'. Especially when the federal tax on gas was fixed in 1993 and hasn't kept pace with inflation.

If your state adds a disproportioate tax on gas that is in line with, or exceeds inflation, then that's hardly a global, or even national driver for people to buy EVs. Although it's certainly fair for you to be asking whether the revenues all go to improving your roads, or are siphoned off to other things, as covert funding for programmes that you might not endorse. And in an era when cars are getting more efficient, how they're going to make up the fuel tax shortfall as revenues decline.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by msej449

From Wikipedia: The United States federal excise tax on gasoline is 18.4 cents per gallon and 24.4 cents per gallon for diesel fuel. Proceeds from the tax partly support the Highway Trust Fund. The federal tax was last raised October 1, 1993 and is not indexed to inflation, which increased 93% from 1993 until 2022. On average, as of April 2019, state and local taxes and fees add 34.24 cents to gasoline and 35.89 cents to diesel .... That's on a gallon of fuel costing between $4 and $5.

I don't see that as 'out of control'. Especially when the federal tax on gas was fixed in 1993 and hasn't kept pace with inflation.

If your state adds a disproportioate tax on gas that is in line or exceeds inflation, then that's hardly a global, or even national driver for people to buy EVs. Although it's certainly fair for you to be asking whether the revenues all go to improving your roads, or are siphoned off to other things, as covert funding for programmes that you might not endorse.

You guys are so funny. So gas prices haven’t gone up? Got it

[msej449]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

You guys are so funny. So gas prices haven’t gone up? Got it

Who said they hadn't? Not me.

You said that 'the gas prices are out of control because of taxes'

I replied that federal gas taxes were fixed in 1999 and haven't changed since. On top of that, while some states have added a small extra gas tax, in total that's only ¢18-¢24 on a $4-$5 gallon of gas. Which doesn't look 'out of control' to me.

Perhaps there's some other reason why gas has gone up? 2021 - $3.26 / Russia invades Ukraine / 2022 - $4.90 - so perhaps it's that? Or it might be that fossil fuel businesses don't find it profitable to build extra refining capacity at the moment. Or that Europe has suddenly grabbed a much bigger proportion of the finite tanker capacity. Anyway, my point is all this is nothing to do with taxes - which was your assertion.

[Bimmerfun82]

Yeah and I said stand corrected but people keep saying the same thing. Still up $60c for state taxes in California. Per gallon. Depends on the state. How about Europe? Any increase there?

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by msej449

It sovles the problem of global heating and catastrophic climate change.

So I suspect that is where we're going to disagree. Because as a scientist, I give credence to the science that shows we're headed for climate catastrophe, unless we take immediate countermeasures. One of which is to ditch ICE cars.

I’m not arguing that there’s no global heating or that our carbon output isn’t a major player. I’m not arguing with your science. But I’ve seen zero evidence that developed nations forcing a switch to EV does one bit to solve the problem.

I’m not denying the problem. I’m saying that people are using the problem to turn a profit on a non existent solution.

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by msej449

I never read, here or anywhere, someone claiming that they've bought an EV for the almost alien advanced tech. In six months, I've not had to charge en route because I have a charge point at home and the range works fine for me. Rural isn't the problem - it's access to home charging or not that is. In fact, people in rural areas often find it easier to get a charger installed than in many suburban ones.

That’s fantastic we have scientist here. I have some questions than. How is cars pollution in comparison to ships moving cargo gas coal and other type of freight? How does it compare to rail transportation using just as ships worst quality of diesel fuel in existence? Why doesn’t army use DEF in their vehicles? How does that compare to emissions created by various types of mines ? Do you know in how many industries oil is being used ? How many different things we use in our everyday life need petroleum based materials? This is just for starters. I wish we could for once get legitimate answers to some of those. So called western world is trying to ditch oil while china and India pollutes more than ever and we are the only suckers that are willingly pay for this. Kind of works like this:
I will eat double the meat so that vegan couldn’t make the difference.

[Rafichicago]

As for that funny thing called taxes. There are federal taxes. Than there are state taxes on to of those. Than there are county taxes and city taxes to sum it all up I am sure I have missed some but that’s the reality we are in. If they can’t make us buy EVs one way they will raise fuel prices to as ridiculous levels so it would finally make financial sense. At least for some.

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

As for that funny thing called taxes. There are federal taxes. Than there are state taxes on to of those. Than there are county taxes and city taxes to sum it all up I am sure I have missed some but that’s the reality we are in. If they can’t make us buy EVs one way they will raise fuel prices to as ridiculous levels so it would finally make financial sense. At least for some.

Yep. Don’t forget disincentivizing oil companies from increasing or even maintaining refinery capacity. Create scarcity, raise prices, kill the market.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by msej449

It sovles the problem of global heating and catastrophic climate change.

So I suspect that is where we're going to disagree. Because as a scientist, I give credence to the science that shows we're headed for climate catastrophe, unless we take immediate countermeasures. One of which is to ditch ICE cars.

Nah.

[Brandt51]

EVs and the charging will get there eventually. Not like ICE motors were all that great at first either. Took decades and decades before they started making real power. And many more decades for lower emissions and even more power like what we have now.

To all the nay sayers, you’re great-great grand folks prob scoffed at the first cars replacing the horse. And their ancestors prob talked shit about the wheel. And what about airplanes? Impossible right? Change is coming. Get with it or get left behind.

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by Brandt51

EVs and the charging will get there eventually. Not like ICE motors were all that great at first either. Took decades and decades before they started making real power. And many more decades for lower emissions and even more power like what we have now.

To all the nay sayers, you’re great-great grand folks prob scoffed at the first cars replacing the horse. And their ancestors prob talked shit about the wheel. And what about airplanes? Impossible right? Change is coming. Get with it or get left behind.

You’re right and that’s why I’m not anti EV. I just think it should develop naturally and not have the govt mandate it by slowly outlawing ICE.

They didn’t outlaw the horse when they made the motor vehicle.

[msej449]

Globally, it’s been the warmest July in 120,000 years. That’s a real worry, or should be, even if you think the causes are natural, and not man-made. When our forebears witnessed the transition to ICE from horses, there was no equivalent catastrophe in the offing. That’s what is different and that’s why government intervention is needed. Otherwise we’ll be condeming our grandchildren to paying for our selfish inaction.

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by msej449

Globally, it’s been the warmest July in 120,000 years. That’s a real worry, or should be, even if you think the causes are natural, and not man-made. When our forebears witnessed the transition to ICE from horses, there was no equivalent catastrophe in the offing. That’s what is different and that’s why government intervention is needed. Otherwise we’ll be condeming our grandchildren to paying for our selfish inaction.

I do think we should focus more energy on adaptation than prevention. I don’t see the climate changes being prevented but humans are very adaptable and we have tremendous industry and technology. More people die from cold than from heat. We can learn to live in an adjusted climate. Not to make light of anything, just saying.

Even if there is preventable action we can take, EV’s for middle class and richer developed nation citizens isn’t moving the needle. It’s like blowing against the wind. The government mandating what I drive and saying it’s to save the planet is like pissing on my head and telling me it’s raining. That’s my problem with it. They’re full of shit in their justification.

[Carlito_UK]

Originally Posted by msej449

It sovles the problem of global heating and catastrophic climate change.

So I suspect that is where we're going to disagree. Because as a scientist, I give credence to the science that shows we're headed for climate catastrophe, unless we take immediate countermeasures. One of which is to ditch ICE cars.

Prolonging the inevitable......humanity is that stubborn spot on the hand of macbeth. The planet is going to donwhat it needs to do. Mass extinctions before us proves that.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by Brandt51

To all the nay sayers, you’re great-great grand folks prob scoffed at the first cars replacing the horse. And their ancestors prob talked shit about the wheel. And what about airplanes? Impossible right? Change is coming. Get with it or get left behind.

I forgot, what were the government incentives to promote the car over the horse? A tax on buggy whips?
The development of the airplane is a testimony to the free market and it's ability to dream and create innovative products without the aid of government largess.

Yes change is generally good but the green grift is doing the opposite of it's intended purpose of saving the environment but it is proving to be the catalyst for greatest loss of generational wealth in history.