[robopp]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

What does a DCT do that you can't do with a modern ZF 8HP auto?

The modem ZF all the way back to the 6 speed ZF 6HP in an E90 has proven to be one hell of a box. Total lock up and low rpm, engine braking, rev matching, super fast shifts, no lift shifting, etc.

Not only does it do what a DCT can do but you can change shift speed from a snap your neck fast to a lazy luxury car feel.

The ZF killed the DCT.

*Rev past 7200
*Quicker, crisper shifts
*Less hesitation on shifts

[Tag]

Originally Posted by dreamworks

Why would they need to develop a new 6MT gearbox if they use the same base S58 with 406 tq and M x-drive? It is really just a regulatory certification cost/issue for another configuration that BMW does not want to invest in for such a small market that wants 6MT and M x-drive (aka-folks who live in the snow belt)

The G87 LCI with AT got a 37 lb-ft torque bump from 406 to 443 lb-ft. The torque limit BMW will warranty the MT is 406 lb-ft, nothing more. That is why only the AT G87 LCI got the torque bump while the MT did not.

Since the G87 LCI also got a hp bump from 453 to 473hp the MT is now putting out exactly the same power as the base M3/4. Don't be surprised if the M2 M xDrive will get the same 503hp and 479 lb-ft of torque as the M3/4C RWD. Remember, BMW axed the "Competition" moniker for all their newer cars. They still plan to produce cars that are "Competition-like" sans the badging. The M2 xDrive is basically an M2CX. Also, since the M3/4CX got a bump to 523hp it gives the M2 xDrive some space for a further power increase.

[IanH]

Originally Posted by jad4ca

I’ve never seen an M4 listed as anything over 4k lbs; where are you seeing 4,300 lbs?

https://www.edmunds.com/bmw/m4/2023/...eatures-specs/

But there are multiple sources saying the awd is that weight so I assumed it was correct.

However, BMW site says non comp is 4100...

[ednir98]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

do they need to re-federalize the powertrain with the addition of two driven wheels? this alone would disqualify the manual too im sure..

I'm not sure on the regularory part but from an engineering persepctive, even a very minor change can have a domino effect. Before you know it you're hundreds of man hours into design revisions and testing just because you changed one piece of hardware. Then of course there are the changes that would have to occur on the manufacturing floor after the revised transmission is released to production. Way too big of an investment for such a small % of the market, and that's excluding the regulatory stuff I'm sure they'd have to tackle. Anyways, thanks for coming to my TEDTalk (rip 6Mt).

[BimmerFix]

Originally Posted by Wills2

If you prefer to pay $98,000 rather than $78,000 then good luck to you.

Huh

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by robopp

*Rev past 7200
*Quicker, crisper shifts
*Less hesitation on shifts

Rev past 7200 maybe, but BMW isn't making 8000 RPM engines these days. The S65 was the highest reving engine BMW made for street use at 8400 RPM.

But with two turbos you don't need to rev to 8000 rpm to get air in the cylinders.

The 8HP 100 can handle 738 lb-ft of torque.
The 8HP 76 is used in the M2/3/4 and can handle up to 561 lb-ft of torque.

The 7DT75 maxes out at about the level of the 8HP 76. So ZF isn't building new DCT to get to the massive HP and torque of the cars coming into market. Also the ZF 8HP has hybrid functionality available. (XM and M5).

As far as faster shifts?
A DCT will always be faster but 50 vs 200 milliseconds, can you really tell?

Lags on shifting? The only time there should be a lag is if the sleeves aren't holding pressure correctly. My ZF 6HP in my 335i would shift fast enough to snap your head back.

I think a lot of shift time is what BMW programs in the ECU.

[Kid Eh]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

You clearly didn’t read what I said, so stop being a jerk❕

Nobody needs your kind of attitude kid

No I clearly read what you said. You first said only morons shop at dealerships and then said traditional dealerships. What’s the difference? You buy your cars on Amazon or at Mikes Used Car Sales? You’re the one with the attitude. I’ve been here a lot longer than you, cowboy.

[robopp]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Rev past 7200 maybe, but BMW isn't making 8000 RPM engines these days. The S65 was the highest reving engine BMW made for street use at 8400 RPM.

But with two turbos you don't need to rev to 8000 rpm to get air in the cylinders.

The 8HP 100 can handle 738 lb-ft of torque.
The 8HP 76 is used in the M2/3/4 and can handle up to 561 lb-ft of torque.

The 7DT75 maxes out at about the level of the 8HP 76. So ZF isn't building new DCT to get to the massive HP and torque of the cars coming into market. Also the ZF 8HP has hybrid functionality available. (XM and M5).

As far as faster shifts?
A DCT will always be faster but 50 vs 200 milliseconds, can you really tell?

Lags on shifting? The only time there should be a lag is if the sleeves aren't holding pressure correctly. My ZF 6HP in my 335i would shift fast enough to snap your head back.

I think a lot of shift time is what BMW programs in the ECU.

S55 and all of the Porsche flat 6 TT motors rev to 7500. The S58 likes to be high up in the rev ranges and I bet there’s more to be had above 7200, but ZF is the limiting factor. The new 992.2 GTS PDK has a hybrid powertrain and arguably way more ‘engineered’ than anything BMW is releasing with a miniscule 100lb penalty.

[DrewNewM2]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

Exactly. I haven't set foot in a dealership to buy a vehicle in over 15 years & 20+ vehicles ago. I contact several dealerships in my area, out-of-state, etc. and tell them what I want & how much I'm willing to pay. It's that simple. I don't "negotiate" back and forth as it's a waste of my time. My financing is always secured ahead of time & I'll give the dealership the opportunity to match or beat it.

Re: a manual x-drive. The illusion on car forums that manual transmissions will have a high take rate is just that, an illusion. In reality a minute % of buyers will choose a manual transmission vehicle.

This is good timing for me. I will probably be ready to move on from my current M2 by 2026, and if I don't go over to Porsche, will look at this.

I thought the manual take rate in new g87 orders is like 50%. That’s not minute. I think people realize it’s last chance.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by Kid Eh

No I clearly read what you said. You first said only morons shop at dealerships and then said traditional dealerships. What’s the difference? You buy your cars on Amazon or at Mikes Used Car Sales? You’re the one with the attitude. I’ve been here a lot longer than you, cowboy.

Canadian, eh

Must be a transplant

Welcome to my ignore list kid

[Kid Eh]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

Canadian, eh

Must be a transplant

Welcome to my ignore list kid

Where do these smart people know how to negotiate? The supermarket? No, at a DEALERSHIP!! Keep putting your foot in your mouth.

[Idontliketrying]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I can't even get an allocation now. Waiting since July.

Dealers use a thing called turn and burn they get allocations based on if they sold the ones they had on the lot before the month ended (to us the dealer it ends on the 2nd of the months) regardless of customer ordered etc. BMW sees to them that they cannot sell that model car becaude it sat on the lot even if it came in the second to last day etc. it counts against BMW looks at that and sees the car didn’t deliver before the month ended for them so they give the dealer less because they expect them not to be able to handle that. Look at some other dealers esp. if you like in a rual area. My dealer got 5 allocations for January.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by ourlee

Can someone photoshop a M2 Wagon?

You must be talking about a modern day clown shoe… 🤡

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by DrewNewM2

I thought the manual take rate in new g87 orders is like 50%. That’s not minute. I think people realize it’s last chance.

In the grand scheme of what BMW sells, it's a minute %. They aren't making tons of G87s. We're on the 3rd model year & I've seen a total of 4 out in the wild, and I live in 2 pretty large (and affluent) car cities.

[TakeOne]

I remember when some were saying there was “no business case” for an XDrive M2

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by DrewNewM2

I thought the manual take rate in new g87 orders is like 50%. That’s not minute. I think people realize it’s last chance.

there is allegedly an increasing (but still small) % chance this is not last call for a pure ICE 6 speed M car. fingers crossed.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by robopp

S55 and all of the Porsche flat 6 TT motors rev to 7500. The S58 likes to be high up in the rev ranges and I bet there’s more to be had above 7200, but ZF is the limiting factor. The new 991.2 GTS PDK has a hybrid powertrain and arguably way more ‘engineered’ than anything BMW is releasing with a miniscule 100lb penalty.

I think the real penalty in the BMW hybrid drive train is the battery and charge for plug in.

The current announcement for the 911 shows something more akin to F1 KERS (kinetic energy recovery system) with a motor in the PDK and a small battery, but nothing like a real plug in hybrid like the M5 and XM.

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

there is allegedly an increasing (but still small) % chance this is not last call for a pure ICE 6 speed M car. fingers crossed.

The other thing I don't understand about this "fear" is there are plenty of ICE manual cars available on the pre-owned market. It's not as if one won't be able to get a manual performance/sports car.

And the more frequently I have to reset my iDrive for it to work correctly, the less likely I am to buy a new car (of any transmission or make) loaded with useless & unnecessary tech - personally.

[robopp]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I think the real penalty in the BMW hybrid drive train is the battery and charge for plug in.

The current announcement for the 911 shows something more akin to F1 KERS (kinetic energy recovery system) with a motor in the PDK and a small battery, but nothing like a real plug in hybrid like the M5 and XM.

Agreed. It’s frustrating from a consumer perspective that BMW just throws a big battery at M cars, which adds a lot of weight to an already heavy vehicle and we should be happy with this? I still struggle with the use case of buying a V8TT and driving around without it running. A mild hybrid and eturbo in any of the M cars would be killer! IMO

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Idontliketrying

Dealers use a thing called turn and burn they get allocations based on if they sold the ones they had on the lot before the month ended (to us the dealer it ends on the 2nd of the months) regardless of customer ordered etc. BMW sees to them that they cannot sell that model car becaude it sat on the lot even if it came in the second to last day etc. it counts against BMW looks at that and sees the car didn’t deliver before the month ended for them so they give the dealer less because they expect them not to be able to handle that. Look at some other dealers esp. if you like in a rual area. My dealer got 5 allocations for January.

In my area (SF Bay) dealers are just not getting allocations. My preferred dealer's business manager showed me allocation in the system for my region and they just aren't there. He can get all the XM and M4 allocations he wants, but nothing for M2, M3 and M5.

They do reasonable volume. But even the highest volume dealer near me has only gotten a couple of allocations in the last few months. My dealer has a line of folks with deposits to get M2s. So the real question is why isn't BMW building more?

I literally have only seen 4 M2s in the wild and I work with people that have 2 of them.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by TakeOne

I remember when some were saying there was “no business case” for an XDrive M2

Remember this thread from over 2yrs ago?

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

The other thing I don't understand about this "fear" is there are plenty of ICE manual cars available on the pre-owned market. It's not as if one won't be able to get a manual performance/sports car.

And the more frequently I have to reset my iDrive for it to work correctly, the less likely I am to buy a new car (of any transmission or make) loaded with useless & unnecessary tech - personally.

absolutely agreed. the worst part about my G87 is the tech, hands down. i've come to pretty actively despise iDrive and virtual climate control. if the G84 is more of this, then its a pretty safe bet my next daily driver might be either backwards looking (F chassis) or simply a different make even if it offers a manual - hopefully one that figured out that most enthusiast buyers prefer simplicity over a dystopian tech gangbang.

still, i keep my fingers crossed they find a way to shoehorn a manual in there to keep people aspiring for halo MT cars and keep giving new and younger enthusiasts a reason to engage with their cars more, even if i do not end up as a buyer.