[itguy61]

I installed this amp in mine, 230i with hi fi sound system. I installed their speakers and sub upgrades. I am finding the sound to be dull, not enough presence or highs for me. Is your tune sounding like this as well?

I had a 328 years ago and installed the Audiotech Fischer amp and Bavsound speakers in it. I tweaked it quite a bit and downloaded some shared tune files, wish I could remember where from. Tuning these amps can be intimidating and tiresome. Steep learning curve and probably a mic needed to measure the sound.

[IanH]

I'm gonna talk to a car audio shop about this. Seems ridiculous that bimmertech would not have a developed Harman target tuning for each car with their system. I was suspicious when I was configuring and they were asking me these dumb questions about what kind of music I like. (That shouldn't really matter)

[itguy61]

Originally Posted by IanH

I'm gonna talk to a car audio shop about this. Seems ridiculous that bimmertech would not have a developed Harman target tuning for each car with their system. I was suspicious when I was configuring and they were asking me these dumb questions about what kind of music I like. (That shouldn't really matter)

For the premium they charge vs the Audotec Fischer amp you would think they would have some tune files. I had one of these years ago and downloaded some files other users had made and tuned them with the dsp software. It can be a rabbit hole and there is a steep learning curve.

I wish I could remember which website it was that had a thread with a bunch of users sharing them. Might have been here on the F 3 series forum.

Creating one from scratch is daunting and probably needs a good mic and tuning using a RTA measurement. Very hard and time consuming for the non experienced at this.

[///MoT]

Originally Posted by itguy61

I installed this amp in mine, 230i with hi fi sound system. I installed their speakers and sub upgrades. I am finding the sound to be dull, not enough presence or highs for me. Is your tune sounding like this as well?<snip>

Yes, I found the default sound file to seem dull... not enough highs or lows for me, too much mids, didn't like the balance between front/rear, not enough gain, etc. I think BimmerTech probably setup the sound profile "correctly" using measurement tools, especially the sound stage with proper delays, etc., but different people like different sound characteristics, so definitely not a "one size fits all" scenario. Sort of like calibrating/tweaking your OLED TV for "perfect picture"... I usually find those settings too dull for my tastes too, even if they are technically "correct".

[///MoT]

Originally Posted by IanH

I'm gonna talk to a car audio shop about this. Seems ridiculous that bimmertech would not have a developed Harman target tuning for each car with their system. I was suspicious when I was configuring and they were asking me these dumb questions about what kind of music I like. (That shouldn't really matter)

I think they do provide the initial tune for the car you have... it just may not be to your liking. To BimmerTech's credit, they did have me try another sound profile once I told them what I didn't like about the default one, which to my ears was a bit better, but still way off from what I prefer. When I bought the amp, I did have the impression that it would come with 10 different sound profiles preloaded, so you could try them all and use the one you liked the most without having to do any tweaking, but that was not the case in my experience.

[kenkamm]

Originally Posted by ///MoT

[snip]When I bought the amp, I did have the impression that it would come with 10 different sound profiles preloaded[/snip]

I thought that was supposed to be the case as well. Here is the video that states it (starts right before he says it)

[BMW DIY Guy]

Originally Posted by ///MoT

I think they do provide the initial tune for the car you have... it just may not be to your liking. To BimmerTech's credit, they did have me try another sound profile once I told them what I didn't like about the default one, which to my ears was a bit better, but still way off from what I prefer. When I bought the amp, I did have the impression that it would come with 10 different sound profiles preloaded, so you could try them all and use the one you liked the most without having to do any tweaking, but that was not the case in my experience.

In every case where I have installed the amp for myself, or for a client, there was a remote tuning session with the Bimmertech audio engineer. He then works to setup the car perfectly for you, your speakers and music choices.

[///MoT]

Originally Posted by BMW DIY Guy

In every case where I have installed the amp for myself, or for a client, there was a remote tuning session with the Bimmertech audio engineer. He then works to setup the car perfectly for you, your speakers and music choices.

Yeah, I suggested to BimmerTech support with my first email to them that maybe we should schedule a session with a tech, and instead the support person that responded suggested trying a new sound file first. I'm sure if I pressed them, they would set up a remote tuning session with me.

I did ask them for more sound files this morning, and he sent me 8 more to try out. Going to give them a shot today to see if any of them come close to what I like.

If anything, I can use them as a starting point to then tweak to my liking. I'm learning more and more how the DSP PC-Tool app works as I go along.

If anyone would like to try the files they sent me, PM me with your email address and I'll send them to you.


-Tom

[Viffermike]

One sound file will not please everyone for the same reasons that:
- some like aluminum dome tweeters, while others like ribbons, and others like silk domes behind horns
- some like Sennheisers, while others like Grados, and others like Beats
- some like Les Pauls, while others like Strats, and others like ES-335s
- some like 25Hz, while others like 60Hz, and others like 250Hz
And so on.

To the poster who questioned why Bimmertech asked what kind of music a customer liked: That's one of the best questions to ask. Personal preference, taste, etc. matters more than what a system's actual sonic capabilities are -- especially in the context of a DSP that's not only correcting a nascent sonic signature, but has the capability of being tuned further to suit individual listeners.

That's also the reason why most DMPs, streaming services, music servers, etc. have standalone EQ sections with 'curves' to suit specific styles of audio, from rock and classical to spoken word/podcasts.

Bimmertech needs to supply several files 'in the box' for those very reasons, IMHO. Not doing so, especially after selling variations of this kit for more than a decade, is a questionable practice, from a company with a history of questionable practices.

[IanH]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

One sound file will not please everyone for the same reasons that:
- some like aluminum dome tweeters, while others like ribbons, and others like silk domes behind horns
- some like Sennheisers, while others like Grados, and others like Beats
- some like Les Pauls, while others like Strats, and others like ES-335s
- some like 25Hz, while others like 60Hz, and others like 250Hz
And so on.

To the poster who questioned why Bimmertech asked what kind of music a customer liked: That's one of the best questions to ask. Personal preference, taste, etc. matters more than what a system's actual sonic capabilities are -- especially in the context of a DSP that's not only correcting a nascent sonic signature, but has the capability of being tuned further to suit individual listeners.

That's also the reason why most DMPs, streaming services, music servers, etc. have standalone EQ sections with 'curves' to suit specific styles of audio, from rock and classical to spoken word/podcasts.

Bimmertech needs to supply several files 'in the box' for those very reasons, IMHO. Not doing so, especially after selling variations of this kit for more than a decade, is a questionable practice, from a company with a history of questionable practices.

Yeah man you don't need to tell me about EQ settings. I've got more money invested in high end headphones, amps, speakers, room treatments etc than 5 of these bimmertech systems.

Changing eq settings for music genres is not a thing. There is one correct baseline setting for all music. People who have shitty ass audio systems might use eq to spoof their already terrible experience.

So, I'm not sure what background you're coming from but it's not an audiophile one.

There is one tuning for the amp and speaker combination that is the most technically correct to the Harman target, that should be the default setting bimmertech gives you. However it sounds like they have never even measured the system to develop that for each car.

Like I said, I'm not wasting my time with bimmertech on this, I may buy their kit for ease of install but will take it to a car audio specialist to get tuned assuming I can't do it myself.

[kenkamm]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

[snip]Bimmertech needs to supply several files 'in the box' for those very reasons, IMHO. Not doing so, especially after selling variations of this kit for more than a decade, is a questionable practice, from a company with a history of questionable practices.

To their credit, they did send ///MoT several files to try out when he asked for them. But yes, the DSP should have been pre-programmed with them.

[kenkamm]

Originally Posted by IanH

[snip]Like I said, I'm not wasting my time with bimmertech on this, I may buy their kit for ease of install but will take it to a car audio specialist to get tuned assuming I can't do it myself.

FWIW a calibrated mic setup is available which allows the system to do a RTA on each speaker individually, as I understand it, to establish as close to a flat baseline as possible. It can also establish proper time alignment for various seating positions in the vehicle. But it's like $400. But if you like to DIY stuff, there you go.

[curtdragon]

Originally Posted by IanH

Yeah man you don't need to tell me about EQ settings. I've got more money invested in high end headphones, amps, speakers, room treatments etc than 5 of these bimmertech systems.

Changing eq settings for music genres is not a thing. There is one correct baseline setting for all music. People who have shitty ass audio systems might use eq to spoof their already terrible experience.

So, I'm not sure what background you're coming from but it's not an audiophile one.

There is one tuning for the amp and speaker combination that is the most technically correct to the Harman target, that should be the default setting bimmertech gives you. However it sounds like they have never even measured the system to develop that for each car.

Like I said, I'm not wasting my time with bimmertech on this, I may buy their kit for ease of install but will take it to a car audio specialist to get tuned assuming I can't do it myself.

Clearly the authority on what everyone's ear prefer lol.
Music absolutely does need to be changed based on what you're listening to.
You're an audiophile but you don't know that different genres are recorded with different parts of the soundtrack highlighted?

Also there's no rule to something subjective. You can science what is "beauty" but everyone has a different opinion on that. Same goes for any of the human senses.

I agree that they should have included the files as it seems they had a crappy base file loaded.

[IanH]

Originally Posted by curtdragon

Clearly the authority on what everyone's ear prefer lol.
Music absolutely does need to be changed based on what you're listening to.
You're an audiophile but you don't know that different genres are recorded with different parts of the soundtrack highlighted?

Also there's no rule to something subjective. You can science what is "beauty" but everyone has a different opinion on that. Same goes for any of the human senses.

I agree that they should have included the files as it seems they had a crappy base file loaded.

I'm not the authority, the Harman curve is (or the equivalent for the vehicle in question), And if you dont know what that is then you should educate yourself. Look up target frequency response.

Im not saying that people dont have different preferences. I am saying that if the baseline tuning of the system is not targeted a specific frequency response for the vehicle to neutral then it's trash tuning. Every user can adjust from there on out, but the baseline for the amp-speaker-car combo is not FLAT and its not based on the kind of music you are listening to.

Everything sounds amazing on my headphone and speaker systems, and there is no EQ needed because the playback is true to the high quality losless recording.

[kenkamm]

I think you're both right.

The Harman Curve might be a nice target to shoot for, and maybe one of Bimmertech's curves comes close to it. Without a RTA, we can't know. However we must not forget our systems must be tuned for use in a moving vehicle which has quite a bit of road noise. To counter this, the whole EQ curve needs to have a slope down from left to right. If we don't do this, the system will sound lifeless and flat, unless we're parked with the engine off.

I do believe that Curtdragon's assertion that different genres of music are recorded with different frequencies of the soundtrack highlighted is 100% correct as well. In fact, even different albums from the same recording artist vary quite a bit in my experience. And to our ears, we may like a certain balance which is not achieved in the same way with every piece of music. Luckily, we have an admittedly limited EQ at our fingertips.

[curtdragon]

I hadn't thought about the moving scenario. I'll have to keep that in mind when I get my setup.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by kenkamm

I think you're both right.

The Harman Curve might be a nice target to shoot for, and maybe one of Bimmertech's curves comes close to it. Without a RTA, we can't know. However we must not forget our systems must be tuned for use in a moving vehicle which has quite a bit of road noise. To counter this, the whole EQ curve needs to have a slope down from left to right. If we don't do this, the system will sound lifeless and flat, unless we're parked with the engine off.

I do believe that Curtdragon's assertion that different genres of music are recorded with different frequencies of the soundtrack highlighted is 100% correct as well. In fact, even different albums from the same recording artist vary quite a bit in my experience. And to our ears, we may like a certain balance which is not achieved in the same way with every piece of music. Luckily, we have an admittedly limited EQ at our fingertips.

Thank you.

IanH : My background is not just as an audiophile -- whatever the hell that's meant through the years. Audio is almost never perfect; the Harman Curve is simply one application of what that could be defined as.

To wit: Audio is only as good as its source - the recording. curtdragon 's statement is at the core of that. A 'perfect' recording is analytically, objectively, and scientifically possible using various tools or whatever -- but the instruments, the audio equipment, the producer, the mixing, the mastering, and more all introduce imperfect, subjective interpretations into the final aural product. No one system can reproduce those with the same balance that another subjective element -- the listener -- might prefer.

Furthermore, almost all reproductive audio equipment has an imperfect sonic 'signature' that also colors what's heard. That's why end-user EQ exists: to adjust the audio to better suit the biases of the listener, the environment, the equipment, the recording, and more.

Perfection is not possible in audio. Satisfaction is -- and even that's fleeting when one is switching from Chopin to Crowbar to Charli XCX to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend.

[BroDoze]

I have yet to get mine dialed to taste. I specifically requested a “flat” curve from the factory and told them that asking what kind of music I like is nonsense. The 2 have nothing to do with each other. Start me out with perfect time-alignment and a flat-as-possible stock curve.
I’m not convinced the time alignment is great, first of all. I’m not convinced the curve is flat. There is still something off with the sound. I also added an amplified 12” sub and even that is off. It’s sloppy with no hard hits or musicality. I have the exact same sub in 2 other vehicles and it sounds amazing.

Something is off with this amp/DSP and I cannot put my finger on it.

I did car /home audio professionally in a prior life and know exactly how a flat car should be sound before tweaking to an individual’s taste. This is nowhere near that. It’s disappointing because I spent a lot of money in the amp/dsp, new front stage speakers and the amplified sub.

[kenkamm]

Originally Posted by BroDoze

I have yet to get mine dialed to taste. I specifically requested a “flat” curve from the factory and told them that asking what kind of music I like is nonsense. The 2 have nothing to do with each other. Start me out with perfect time-alignment and a flat-as-possible stock curve.
I’m not convinced the time alignment is great, first of all. I’m not convinced the curve is flat. There is still something off with the sound. I also added an amplified 12” sub and even that is off. It’s sloppy with no hard hits or musicality. I have the exact same sub in 2 other vehicles and it sounds amazing.

Something is off with this amp/DSP and I cannot put my finger on it.

I did car /home audio professionally in a prior life and know exactly how a flat car should be sound before tweaking to an individual’s taste. This is nowhere near that. It’s disappointing because I spent a lot of money in the amp/dsp, new front stage speakers and the amplified sub.

For lack of a better word, that's a bummer that you're not happy with the sound. Regarding the time alignment, would you have time to verify the settings roughly using a tape measure? That may not be as accurate as if they had used the proper mic method, but we don't know if they did that. The tape measure method would let you know if there are any gross errors.

Also, I don't know how easy it is to do this with the DSP as I don't yet own one, but one little trick we used to do back in my car audio competition days to set the left/right levels of the front stage was to play pink noise in each of the ranges individually and tune. So we would turn off all the speakers, except, say, the front tweeters, and play pink noise. It would be very easy to set the left/right balance with your ears using the pink noise - or at least get it really close without a mic or other instruments such as a sound level meter (if you have one of those, all the better.) Then we would do the same for the midrange drivers, and so on. Then you know you have a relatively close left/right balance for your front stage at least. As you can imagine this is petty crucial to getting things sounding properly balanced.

I don't know if you're a DIY kind of guy or a take-it-to-a-pro kind of guy but "back in the day" we used to rent the local car audio shop's RTA at an hourly rate to tune our vehicles. We would set up the mic in the driver's position and set about tuning our Audio Control 32-band EQ's. Maybe these days something similar could be done. I'm personally hoping once I get my Bimmertech setup I'm going to be able to get my hands on an RTA for some DIY tuning. [EDIT:] After some brief research looks like $79 buys you a calibrated mic called the "UMIK-1" and there is some free RTA software called "REW".

What kind of crossover setup is your sub running on? Is there a subsonic filter for it? Is it a sealed box or ported? Is there enough power for the subwoofer?

[BroDoze]

I’ve reached out to BT to get into the DSP guys and to see if I can adjust the speaker distances.

[///MoT]

Originally Posted by BroDoze

I’ve reached out to BT to get into the DSP guys and to see if I can adjust the speaker distances.

You definitely can, using the DSP PC-Tool app.

Please let us know how BT handles your request.