[IanH]

Its actually a myth that winter tires wear out faster in the summer. My friend drove his car with winters on year round for 40k+ miles over 4 years and they still weren't worn out (Michelin xice)

Also, op said they aren't driving the car in the winter. Just that alone says get summer tires. (Ps4s)

AS tires are for 3 seasons but generally don't do great in winter.

All Weather tires are for all 4 seasons, and most work great in the snow without giving up as much dry and wet perfromance.

[ScottyRyan2019]

Originally Posted by IanH

Its actually a myth that winter tires wear out faster in the summer. My friend drove his car with winters on year round for 40k+ miles over 4 years and they still weren't worn out (Michelin xice)

Also, op said they aren't driving the car in the winter. Just that alone says get summer tires. (Ps4s)

AS tires are for 3 seasons but generally don't do great in winter.

All Weather tires are for all 4 seasons, and most work great in the snow without giving up as much dry and wet perfromance.

No, it's not a myth. Winter tires are made of compounds that do not respond to heat very well. That's what keeps them soft and pliable in the winter. Heat is probably the #1 killer of tire compounds and heat is generated through flexing of the tire compound. Think under inflation, high speed, cornering , braking, acceleration, and running compounds not made for the environment all flex the tire compound and generate heat.

Your friend running a set of winters year round for those miles and time is anecdotal evidence at best. All of the studies show heat will wear them out faster.

I live in Minnesota and have driven close to 1.5 million miles in some of the worse conditions you can imagine ( for 20 years I averaged over 50,000 miles a year and couldn't stay home when the roads were horse hockey). Yes, winters are better in the cold and snow, but I drove most of those miles with AS tires year round.

[IanH]

Feel free to link me the studies. I'll wait.

[fangelov]

Originally Posted by IanH

Feel free to link me the studies. I'll wait.

https://www.continental-tires.com/pr...2060%20percent.

[IanH]

Originally Posted by fangelov

https://www.continental-tires.com/pr...2060%20percent.

Marketing.

Empirical evidence shows the tires last quite a long time. Either they were gonna last 80k miles in the cold or they don't have reduced wear life. Considering i have never heard of winter tires lasting that long i will go with the former.

[fangelov]

Originally Posted by IanH

Marketing.

Empirical evidence shows the tires last quite a long time. Either they were gonna last 80k miles in the cold or they don't have reduced wear life. Considering i have never heard of winter tires lasting that long i will go with the former.

There is a difference between empirical and anecdotal evidence ;-)

[IanH]

Originally Posted by fangelov

There is a difference between empirical and anecdotal evidence ;-)

4/32 left, uniform on all 4 tires, after 40k+ miles isn't some fluke.

But you can't produce any actual tests of winter tire tread wear in summer because they don't actually exist.

If anything I'm one of the few people who could actually tell you first hand and with evidence that the marketing that exists to sell tires is wrong.

[JABCAT]

I just completed my twice-weekly 250 mi interstate drive (Dallas North Tollway to I-35 south to Austin), and for the first time on the new Extreme Contact DWS 06. I drove the entire trip in M1 which is everything set to Sport & transmission in D2. The ride was noticeably more compliant than with the PS4S, no noticeable road noise, no drifting, no tramlining. Steering wheel felt light when changing lanes, noticeably less effort. Avg speed was ~80 mph with most of the drive set at 84 mph on the auto cruise, very light traffic. I also averaged 27.6 mpg which is about 4 mpg higher than I've been getting on this drive under the same conditions.

Overall really happy with the tires, especially at $500 less than replacement PS4S

[ScottyRyan2019]

Originally Posted by IanH

Feel free to link me the studies. I'll wait.

You were the one who first claimed it was a myth, so actually the burden is on you to put forth reliable sources to prove your point that you can run a winter tire during the heat of the summer and not experience increased tire wear as compared to a summer tire or AS tire under the same driving conditions ( not to mention the reduced handling and braking capabilities). But since you are just using the "Trust me, Bro!" method I'll explain why that doesn't work as it's quite simple. You didn't perform any meaningful type of test. At the very least you need to drive x miles with winter tires in the summer, take your starting and ending measurements, then do the same with your comparison tire under the same conditions, then repeat it enough times until you get a meaningful data set you can actually use. Simply driving the winters and taking a few measurements after a certain amount of miles is meaningless.

With that said I actually DID take the time to look for a reputable source to prove your claim and guess what, I found none.

However, there is copious data out there that winter tires do incur increased wear outside of their recommended operating temperature as compared to summer or AS tires ( and they also don't perform as well with lateral grip, braking, or acceleration outside of their recommended operating temperature).

With that said, here are some videos/ articles you can look up. Some are directly on point, some you have to sift through the data and extrapolate it and understand tire design and materials as well as physics. You also need to use some ( ahem ) common sense once you understand the makeup of the different types of tires and how heat effects them.

And yes, you could try to argue as you have already that tire manufacturers are trying to sell you a tire. But, what you also need to understand is tire manufacturers are liable for suit without proper research, design, and testing prior to marketing their tires.

Look back at the Firestone Tire debacle in the 1990s/2000s which cost them an estimated $800 million in settlements and legal fees not to mention cutting the market value of the parent company, Bridgestone, by HALF.

Most of my work that I did in the field with vehicle dynamics / crash reconstruction was during this time period and I actually did attend some conferences where tire design and use was talked about extensively by experts in that field not to mention other data I reviewed. Yes, that was a long time ago and tire design has gone through a lot of change since then but the physics have not.

Onward....

Continental Tire is a good source of information as is Michelin Tire, Nokian, etc.

There are also a lot of tire sales outlets such as Tire Rack ( they do a tremendous amount of testing ), Discount Tire, as well as other sities such as The Tire Reviews, Tire ER, etc, that you can go to for information.


More....

----

Why avoid driving on winter tires in the summer?

Canadian Tire, YouTube

-----

BMW Summer vs Winter Tire

BMW Toronto, YouTube

----

Winter vs Summer Tires, What's The Difference?

Engineering Explained, YouTube ( easy to understand explanation of glass transition and how it effects tire wear and handling)

----

Summer Tires vs Winter Tires vs All Season. Which Should You Buy?

Engineering Explained, YouTube

-----

What Happens When You Run Winter Tires in the Summer?

Motor Authority, May 2017

----

General Questions About Winter Tires

Engineering Explained, December 2014

----

Impact of vehicle type, tyre feature and driving behaviour on tyre wear under real-world driving conditions

ScienceDirect, October 2022

----


Comprehensive Study of the Performance of Winter Tires on Ice, Snow and Asphalt Roads: The Influence of Tire Type and Wear.

ResearchGate, July 2017

-----

Rolling Resistance Evaluation of Winter Tires on In-Service Road Surfaces

ResearchGate, March 2020

-----

Winter Tires: Operating Conditions, Tire Characteristics and Vehicle Driving Behavior

ResearchGate, June 2010

------

Non-Destructive Testing of Deformation and Dissipative Properties of Tread Rubber of Passenger Car Tires (Diagnostic testing of summer, winter and all-season tires)

ResearchGate. December 2024

----

Winter Tires: Service Conditions, tire characteristics and handling performance

ResearchGate, January 2007

-----

Yaddy, yaddy, yadda

In the end, can you run today's winter tires in the summer? You can, but just understand it comes at a cost of reduced handling, braking, acceleration and increased wear. You can't change the physics of the materials and design.

[IanH]

I thought you might have had something with the paper in russian, but they dont even evaluate what they say they do.

Not a single one of those sources give a wear performance test, and none of the winter tires are rated for wear.

I never made any claims about performance of winter tires in the summer, so don't try to change the subject.

So still, you have produced zero sources that actually back up that winter tires wear faster in the summer.

"Blah blah blah I'm an engineer I know..." you're not the only engineer on the forums bud. I'm sure you know lots of things, but you definitely dont know something for sure if you cant produce a single source that contradicts my claim. You will see these people repeating the same "convectional wisdom" all over the place but nobody actually tested it (or if they did they didn't publish the results) conventional wisdom is often wrong, and sometimes these insidious claims can go decades without being so much as tested once.

I would imagine there is some temperature and driving intensity threshold that winter tires begin to degrade very fast, but its not the temperature reached by pavement/tires in the northeast over the past 5 years, or normal passenger car driving during commutes.

[ScottyRyan2019]

Originally Posted by IanH

I thought you might have had something with the paper in russian, but they dont even evaluate what they say they do.

Not a single one of those sources give a wear performance test, and none of the winter tires are rated for wear.

I never made any claims about performance of winter tires in the summer, so don't try to change the subject.

So still, you have produced zero sources that actually back up that winter tires wear faster in the summer.

"Blah blah blah I'm an engineer I know..." you're not the only engineer on the forums bud. I'm sure you know lots of things, but you definitely dont know something for sure if you cant produce a single source that contradicts my claim. You will see these people repeating the same "convectional wisdom" all over the place but nobody actually tested it (or if they did they didn't publish the results) conventional wisdom is often wrong, and sometimes these insidious claims can go decades without being so much as tested once.

I would imagine there is some temperature and driving intensity threshold that winter tires begin to degrade very fast, but its not the temperature reached by pavement/tires in the northeast over the past 5 years, or normal passenger car driving during commutes.

Trying to move the goal posts I see. Your quote was, "It's actually a myth that winter tires wear out faster in the summer." Your statement is wrong and it's been proven time and again.

You clearly didn't read or watch anything. You may have read one or two abstracts but that is not the same as reading the research paper. The devil is in the details. But that aside, there is useful data on the other articles and videos you either didn't read or watch, or you did and simply chose not to believe it.

As for me being an engineer, I never said I was. You made an assumption. However, I use to be an expert in crash reconstruction with a side of vehicle dynamics. Unfortunately it's been over 15 years since I've worked in that field mostly due to a series of TBIs. However, the science hasn't changed, just the technology.

Anyway, tires are an extremely important part of a vehicle's performance as they are the only part of the vehicle in contact with the road. I dealt with tires all the time and have a working knowledge of their construction and performance under various loads and conditions. I use to consult with tire experts a lot. And during those conversations a reoccurring theme was that heat kills tires. And you generate heat through flexation of the tire sidewall and tread surface. In layman's terms you get that flexation through under inflation (much more than over inflation ), lateral forces, braking, acceleration , weight, and simply rolling on down the road ( want to dig deeper, study glass transition as it pertains to tire construction)

I've witnessed first hand several times during tests a winter tire start to marble the surface of the tread under hard threshold braking (ABS kicks in) on dry warm pavement when the surface of the tire starts to get up over 90 degrees. That is an every day summer temp. It's usually three back to back stops and by the third the marbling occurs as the tread starts to break down. Didn't happen with summer or AS tires.

The makeup of winter tires is that they stay pliable in very cold temps which gives the surface of the tire the ability to move and grip the surface. The problem is once you get above about 45 degrees that pliability starts to work against the tire. It moves too much which generates heat which wears the tire out quicker. Fundamentals of science and you can argue it all day but you will lose your argument.

The ONLY data you have provided is your driving so many miles and measuring treadwear. Nowhere is that any type of acceptable data on its face. You are comparing it to nothing with no controls. That's not science, that is anecdotal evidence at best."

So once again, post up your scientific data that proves a winter tire doesn't wear faster in the summer. You made the claim, back it up with science.

Science wins and I'm done. Bless your heart and have a nice day.

[IanH]

You still havent posted a single shred of DATA backing up your claim, but you continue to write novels about how I'm wrong. Thou doth protest too much!

Data doesnt support the claims of faster wear, or you would have some to post. I read every article you referenced, there's not even a single TEST of winter tire wear in the summer, never mind DATA that contradict my observation.

I am not talking about performance, and I never did. Stop posting about how its bad to run winter tires in the summer for safety, no duh of course they suck at handling and braking in the summer.

Believe the science is a bullshit platitude, believe the data is actual viable position.

[ScottyRyan2019]

Originally Posted by IanH

You still havent posted a single shred of DATA backing up your claim, but you continue to write novels about how I'm wrong. Thou doth protest too much!

Data doesnt support the claims of faster wear, or you would have some to post. I read every article you referenced, there's not even a single TEST of winter tire wear in the summer, never mind DATA that contradict my observation.

I am not talking about performance, and I never did. Stop posting about how its bad to run winter tires in the summer for safety, no duh of course they suck at handling and braking in the summer.

Believe the science is a bullshit platitude, believe the data is actual viable position.

Yaaaawn. You keep talking in circles and have yet to post a single scientific fact to back up your claim. Remember, your claim is that, "It's actually a myth that winter tires wear out faster in the summer." The burden is on you to back up your claim with science. Waiting.... 🤣

[IanH]

Originally Posted by ScottyRyan2019

Yaaaawn. You keep talking in circles and have yet to post a single scientific fact to back up your claim. Remember, your claim is that, "It's actually a myth that winter tires wear out faster in the summer." The burden is on you to back up your claim with science. Waiting.... 🤣

The testing doesn't exist. I know someone who tested it. Better data than zero.

Keep laughing and please write some more about how there is data about your viewpoint.... which doesn't exist.

Somehow you think the burden is on me, when I posted my information. You have 0 information to contradict

[ScottyRyan2019]

Originally Posted by IanH

The testing doesn't exist. I know someone who tested it. Better data than zero.

Keep laughing and please write some more about how there is data about your viewpoint.... which doesn't exist.

Somehow you think the burden is on me, when I posted my information. You have 0 information to contradict

Waiting....🤣