[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dfox

EV does bring things to the table for a commuter. A few things that come to my mind at the moment:
no need to stop at the gas station because you fuel up at home or your destination. No more needing to stop for gas when you're already late for a meeting, because you charged up while you were sleeping. Proactive refueling vs reactive.

Zero serviceability isn't a detractor for EV's, the service needs are basically non-existent. Brakes go substantially longer because of regen. No oil changes, etc. Just rotate the tires and check fluids. Substantially less work here, or time to go to a shop if you're not doing your own maintenance.

Basically instant heating/cooling. No need to wait for an engine to come up to temp.

No issues with frequent short trips. ICE cars don't like the 1 mile trips that we frequently take living in a suburban area. EV doesn't care.

One pedal driving really does make driving in stop and go traffic a lot less of a pain.

Higher cost, I'd argue not, as long as you are open minded about the situation. EV's are currently selling at about the same price as their ICE counterparts. That said, keeping what you already have is always cheaper. So if your ICE commuter doesn't need to be replaced, don't replace it.


I still occasionally commute in one of our ICE vehicles and have a clear vision of the pros/cons of each system. EV is definitely a more convenient commuter. It comes with limits, but they're very easy to manage.

Just quick and dirty math...

Camry LE with heated seats is $29,310. Cheapest Tesla Model 3 with tax incentives is $34,990, $5,680 more. At $3.29/gal. and using the EPA average of 51 MPG for the Camry, that's 88,000 miles before the Model 3 hits the payback point. At 15,000 miles a year, that's 6 years before any savings are realized. That's a hard sell for a parent with two kids renting a house where they are not going to drop $3,500 to get a L2 EVSE installed so they can have the magic of home refueling. Add in the home charger and the miles to payback are 140,000 and 9 years breakeven. Add the PITA to charge an EV using the public network and people dont see the advantage of adopting. That's why Americans are not buying EV in quantities to flip the market to EV.

[Sedoy]

Your math definitely checks out, but I think people interested in the Model 3 aren’t really buying it for the gas savings. The Model 3 is a RWD platform with very impressive handling, great acceleration (even the cheapest RWD model does a 1/4-mile in 13.2 seconds) and has a set of smart features unique to Tesla like autopilot, sentry mode, over-the-air updates, dog mode, and etc. There’s a reason people keep buying overpriced iPhones, even though top-tier Android phones can do similar things for much less.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Just quick and dirty math...

Camry LE with heated seats is $29,310. Cheapest Tesla Model 3 with tax incentives is $34,990, $5,680 more. At $3.29/gal. and using the EPA average of 51 MPG for the Camry, that's 88,000 miles before the Model 3 hits the payback point. At 15,000 miles a year, that's 6 years before any savings are realized. That's a hard sell for a parent with two kids renting a house where they are not going to drop $3,500 to get a L2 EVSE installed so they can have the magic of home refueling. Add in the home charger and the miles to payback are 140,000 and 9 years breakeven. Add the PITA to charge an EV using the public network and people dont see the advantage of adopting. That's why Americans are not buying EV in quantities to flip the market to EV.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Have you guys gotta ruin every thread that even mentions an EV? Let it go already.

lol...it sure does trigger people around here


maybe it is because I'm lucky enough, or financially irresponsible enough to have multiple vehicles. but the best daily I've ever owned does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds and is currently charging in my garage right now for penies on the dollar compared to the $5 gal gas around here...never waste time at a gas station or oil change shop either.....

I lmao when I read the ignorance on here when it comes to the devil aka EV's

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Just quick and dirty math...

Camry LE with heated seats is $29,310. Cheapest Tesla Model 3 with tax incentives is $34,990, $5,680 more. At $3.29/gal. and using the EPA average of 51 MPG for the Camry, that's 88,000 miles before the Model 3 hits the payback point. At 15,000 miles a year, that's 6 years before any savings are realized. That's a hard sell for a parent with two kids renting a house where they are not going to drop $3,500 to get a L2 EVSE installed so they can have the magic of home refueling. Add in the home charger and the miles to payback are 140,000 and 9 years breakeven. Add the PITA to charge an EV using the public network and people dont see the advantage of adopting. That's why Americans are not buying EV in quantities to flip the market to EV.

I paid $425 to install my $425 Tesla charger....Don't know where people come up with the made up numbers like $3500, but everything you read on the internet or see on youtube isn't true....

Gas is always around $5.00+ per gallon around here and many people have solar these days....Only use charging stations on occasional road trip, hardly a PITA and usually it is done charging by the time you get done buying a coffee or some fast food...

They may not be for everyone, but they certainly fit the bill for many people.

I can vouch for mine that has 50,000 flawless maintenance free miles on her

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Sedoy

Your math definitely checks out, but I think people interested in the Model 3 aren’t really buying it for the gas savings. The Model 3 is a RWD platform with very impressive handling, great acceleration (even the cheapest RWD model does a 1/4-mile in 13.2 seconds) and has a set of smart features unique to Tesla like autopilot, sentry mode, over-the-air updates, dog mode, and etc. There’s a reason people keep buying overpriced iPhones, even though top-tier Android phones can do similar things for much less.

So your comment supports what I said, the US market buys 300,000 Camrys a year (309,000 in 2024) vs. Tesla Model 3 at 200,000 (189,000 in 2024). SocalR8 clearly makes the point about what he pays for fuel (never mind he has solar...), he cites his fuel cost numerous times in EV threads. My point is, for a person who has to use the public EV charging network to fuel his EV there is no cost savings and the time involved is better spent elsewhere for them OR they would be buying EV at a level of just 8% of the market.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Just quick and dirty math...

Camry LE with heated seats is $29,310. Cheapest Tesla Model 3 with tax incentives is $34,990, $5,680 more. At $3.29/gal. and using the EPA average of 51 MPG for the Camry, that's 88,000 miles before the Model 3 hits the payback point. At 15,000 miles a year, that's 6 years before any savings are realized. That's a hard sell for a parent with two kids renting a house where they are not going to drop $3,500 to get a L2 EVSE installed so they can have the magic of home refueling. Add in the home charger and the miles to payback are 140,000 and 9 years breakeven. Add the PITA to charge an EV using the public network and people dont see the advantage of adopting. That's why Americans are not buying EV in quantities to flip the market to EV.

you also forget resale value of a tesla model 3 at high mileage vs a camry... people actively search for used camrys and there is a strong market for long term... used model 3 market is 0 and you get annihilated on trade because they change them every 5 second and get pricing adjustments

[Alfisti]

Camry and Model 3 are two different segments, the 3 is the size of a Corolla, the Camry is far larger.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Sedoy

Your math definitely checks out, but I think people interested in the Model 3 aren’t really buying it for the gas savings. The Model 3 is a RWD platform with very impressive handling, great acceleration (even the cheapest RWD model does a 1/4-mile in 13.2 seconds) and has a set of smart features unique to Tesla like autopilot, sentry mode, over-the-air updates, dog mode, and etc. There’s a reason people keep buying overpriced iPhones, even though top-tier Android phones can do similar things for much less.

People buy iPhones because they get stuck in an ecosystem. A lot of them bought into the "this is the boogie one" that likely applies to Teslas too, but then people keep buying iPhones because that's what they're used to, and at some level they think they're better because they paid more for their phone.

Mark my words, they will figure out a way to lease people iPhones for a year and offer it as a "always have the new phone" and (stupid) people will eat that shart up. You will own nothing and you will like it.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

lol...it sure does trigger people around here


maybe it is because I'm lucky enough, or financially irresponsible enough to have multiple vehicles. but the best daily I've ever owned does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds and is currently charging in my garage right now for penies on the dollar compared to the $5 gal gas around here...never waste time at a gas station or oil change shop either.....

I lmao when I read the ignorance on here when it comes to the devil aka EV's

Your fuel costs are because of your government and nothing more. Gas is 2.86 a gallon here, 3.24 for premium. Prices have been a little higher than normal lately too.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

I paid $425 to install my $425 Tesla charger....Don't know where people come up with the made up numbers like $3500, but everything you read on the internet or see on youtube isn't true....

Gas is always around $5.00+ per gallon around here and many people have solar these days....Only use charging stations on occasional road trip, hardly a PITA and usually it is done charging by the time you get done buying a coffee or some fast food...

They may not be for everyone, but they certainly fit the bill for many people.

I can vouch for mine that has 50,000 flawless maintenance free miles on her

I used $3,500 based on what I've read on the Mustang Mach E forum. Google AI says between $1K to $2.5K , So, $3,500 is not an ass-pulled number. Regardless, even if it's just $1,000, that's still 15,500 miles of fuel for the Camry hybrid. I doubt someone who is renting would put $1,000 into a house they don't own. Have a house built in the 1960s that has a just 100-amp panel, and the install costs jump up pretty quickly.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by ASAP

you also forget resale value of a tesla model 3 at high mileage vs a camry... people actively search for used camrys and there is a strong market for long term... used model 3 market is 0 and you get annihilated on trade because they change them every 5 second and get pricing adjustments

Agreed, but I left out depreciation because I was doing quick and dirty math. I also left out the maintenance costs both in and out of the equation. My research has indicated ICEV are 9-cents a mile and EV are 6-cents a mile. And I didn't include the fuel cost of the Tesla to charge it for 88,000 miles.

Like I said, just rough numbers to make the point about EV and ICEV selling for comparable prices. I don't think it's true.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Camry and Model 3 are two different segments, the 3 is the size of a Corolla, the Camry is far larger.

Comparing a Model 3 to a Corolla makes the math for the Tesla even worse. I chose the Camry because it's the most popular selling ICEV sedan vs. the Model 3, which is the most popular selling EV sedan.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Comparing a Model 3 to a Corolla makes the math for the Tesla even worse.

TBH I am not sure what a fair comparison is. And I mean unbiased and fair. A Corolla is about the same size but lacks the power of the Model 3, but the Model 3 does not have the luxury of a 3 series or C class which are both a touch bigger than the Tesla anyways.

Trying to think of a powerful small sedan with a basic interior. Hmmmmm.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

TBH I am not sure what a fair comparison is. And I mean unbiased and fair. A Corolla is about the same size but lacks the power of the Model 3, but the Model 3 does not have the luxury of a 3 series or C class which are both a touch bigger than the Tesla anyways.

Trying to think of a powerful small sedan with a basic interior. Hmmmmm.

You would need to define luxury in this case. If by luxury you just mean physical stuff, like trims, buttons, panels etc then yes. If by luxury you mean the quality of the materials that are there and actual features (heated seats, cooled, cameras etc) then I think the Model 3 is on par with a 3 series or C class easily. Especially the new Model 3.

[Alfisti]

Maybe the Acura's based on the Civic platform?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

TBH I am not sure what a fair comparison is. And I mean unbiased and fair. A Corolla is about the same size but lacks the power of the Model 3, but the Model 3 does not have the luxury of a 3 series or C class which are both a touch bigger than the Tesla anyways.

Trying to think of a powerful small sedan with a basic interior. Hmmmmm.

You are over-thinking this. I simply am comparing Tesla's most popular selling sedan to Toyota's most popular sedan.

BTW, EPA passenger volume for the 2025 Camry is 100 cubic-feet. Model 3 is 97 cubic-feet.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You are over-thinking this. I simply am comparing Tesla's most popular selling sedan to Toyota's most popular sedan.

And the point is why? Why would you compare those two vehicles?

You may not like the interior (I don't either), but the reality is the Tesla is a direct competitor to a 3 series, which comes in at a drastic price difference from a Corolla. Your numbers change drastically when you actually compare the cars with their competitors.

You want to compare an EV to a corolla, compare a nissan leaf.

You want a pretty direct comparison, compare the i4 gran coupe to a 430i gran coupe. 52800 vs 49650.

Also, price of gas vs price of electricity varies drastically by location. Here, I have some of the most expensive gas in the country, and some of the cheapest electricity (that's 95% renewable to boot).



Everyone's calculations are different and you really can't generalize across the entire country.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dfox

And the point is why? Why would you compare those two vehicles?

You may not like the interior (I don't either), but the reality is the Tesla is a direct competitor to a 3 series, which comes in at a drastic price difference from a Corolla. Your numbers change drastically when you actually compare the cars with their competitors.

You want to compare an EV to a corolla, compare a nissan leaf.

You want a pretty direct comparison, compare the i4 gran coupe to a 430i gran coupe. 52800 vs 49650.

Also, price of gas vs price of electricity varies drastically by location. Here, I have some of the most expensive gas in the country, and some of the cheapest electricity (that's 95% renewable to boot).



Everyone's calculations are different and you really can't generalize across the entire country.

I'll state again... comparing Toyota's most popular-selling sedan to Tesla's most popular-selling sedan. They are in the same EPA class size and just 3 cubic feet apart from one another in passenger/luggage volume. I didn't bring the Corolla into the discussion, Alfisti did. You can think the Model 3 is a 3-Series competitor because when it first came out it was in the price range of a 3-Series, but it didn't offer the refinement of the 3-series. It's still near the price of a 3-series before tax incentives, but I still don't think it has the refinement of a 3-series.

I used $3.29 for gas. Avg. today is $3.12 (which makes the case better for the Camry). It appears electrons on the public networks is around $0.45 to $0.55 kW, which makes fueling an EV on the public system about equal in cost to gasoline on a per-mile cost basis.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'll state again... comparing Toyota's most popular-selling sedan to Tesla's most popular-selling sedan. They are in the same EPA class size and just 3 cubic feet apart from one another in passenger/luggage volume. I didn't bring the Corolla into the discussion, Alfisti did. You can think the Model 3 is a 3-Series competitor because when it first came out it was in the price range of a 3-Series, but it didn't offer the refinement of the 3-series. It's still near the price of a 3-series before tax incentives, but I still don't think it has the refinement of a 3-series.

I used $3.29 for gas. Avg. today is $3.12 (which makes the case better for the Camry). It appears electrons on the public networks is around $0.45 to $0.55 kW, which makes fueling an EV on the public system about equal in cost to gasoline on a per-mile cost basis.

Compare the BMW's I listed above. No arguing about whether or not they're competitors. Although the performance is going to be different with the i4 outperforming. Make sure you're actually looking at MPG and mi/kwh figures.

Gas here is 4.60ish per gallon for regular, but premium is probably a better comparison given the power output of EVs. I pay 10.263 cents per kwh.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dfox

Compare the BMW's I listed above. No arguing about whether or not they're competitors. Although the performance is going to be different with the i4 outperforming. Make sure you're actually looking at MPG and mi/kwh figures.

Gas here is 4.60ish per gallon for regular, but premium is probably a better comparison given the power output of EVs. I pay 10.263 cents per kwh.

I'll let you do the math. I don't see what it has to do with my comparison between the Camry and Model 3.

[dfox]

It's a comparison that actually is apples to apples, IE it actually means something.

430i - 31 mpg
i4 3.6 mi/kwh

At my price, 10K miles/year, EV saves about $1,200 in fuel alone, assuming we ignore regular maintenance items such as oil changes. Fuel savings alone pay for themselves in less than 3 years.
430i - 1483.87 in gas
i4 - 285 in electricity

Start to consider the additional costs of oil changes, trans/diff fluid changes, and just the general maintenance that an ICE requires that an EV just doesn't, and the numbers just keep adding up. And what we're not quantifying in here is also time, something that I take seriously. My time is worth money. The time to do an oil change, or take to a shop. Time to stand around at a gas station a few times a week...


Look, I drive both. my commuter is an EV. My fun car and road trip car are both ICE. They both have their strong points, but ya'll ev haters are just missing the mark with your hate. No, they don't work for everyone, but I'd bet that they'd work just fine for the vast majority of people on this forum as a commuter.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dfox

It's a comparison that actually is apples to apples, IE it actually means something.

430i - 31 mpg
i4 3.6 mi/kwh

At my price, 10K miles/year, EV saves about $1,200 in fuel alone, assuming we ignore regular maintenance items such as oil changes. Fuel savings alone pay for themselves in less than 3 years.
430i - 1483.87 in gas
i4 - 285 in electricity

Start to consider the additional costs of oil changes, trans/diff fluid changes, and just the general maintenance that an ICE requires that an EV just doesn't, and the numbers just keep adding up. And what we're not quantifying in here is also time, something that I take seriously. My time is worth money. The time to do an oil change, or take to a shop. Time to stand around at a gas station a few times a week...

That's for you at $4.60/gal. and charging at home. My discussion was using a much lower price for fuel for a the average customer in the US auto market who will only use the public network to charge his EV. So your point is not apples to apples as a counter to what I am discussing. In my rough calculation I didn't even include the cost of electrons for the Tesla on the Tesla network, which I think is around $0.22 per kW.