[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I agree with this entirely.

EVs will be a part of the mix, but ICE will be around for basically ever as well. The biggest issue we have with EVs is this "all or nothing" approach. People expect it to be the only option, and that's just dumb. We really should be pushing for PHEVs or EREVs if we actually cared about emissions and/or transitioning to EVs... But we don't, it's all a freaking cash grab.

The problem that EV have is inexpensive gasoline (and diesel). BEV just doesn't scale up to replace heavy equipment, ships, and commercial jet aircraft. These fuels will be necessary for the next 200 years. As long as jet fuel and diesel are required to fuel the world's economies, the gasoline is going to exist. The infrastructure that produces jet fuel and diesel fuel also produces gasoline in vary narrowly adjustable ratios to the other chemicals and fuels produced from crude oil. Most people don't understand that petrochemical processing plants just can't change the ratio mix of fuels and chemicals produced in it. Trying to replace cars and light-duty trucks with BEV doesn't immediately reduce the amount of gasoline produced.

Your solution is correct. Hybrids. They maintain the petrochemical infrastructure production cost profile and better use resources, which expand transportation while reducing the cost to the consumer. All good for building and sustaining economies across the globe.

[jaffles]

Can't help wonder if the horse and cart crowd were as anti change to the motor vehicles as fossil fuel is to electric. Would imagine most of the flak comes from agitators with invested interest.

Still for me EVs need to settle on a few things, like a standard charge point. You fill a petrol/diesel car or truck via with a common filler hose that's globally accepted, and stick it in a hole. EVs like Apple, want to put their controlling spin on technology and then sell globally. Their greed in part is there failing.

Think batteries should also be repairable (serviceable modular), or exchangeable without having to pull the car half apart would work in everyone's favor. You would think that lesson should be learnt with petrol engines, they may still pull the car half apart, but they don't throw the engine away if the spark plug crap out.

China reportedly can already put 600km down in 15 minutes. So really is volume of supply (energy) that needs to giddy up. Not EVs.

But lastly, I do wonder if the companies and ecopreneurs are just tapping the masses. As stated above the real users of FF like plains, trains, ships, and trucks are no closer to pulling their weight.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Isn't it interesting that the man who road the coat tails of all this is now the richest man in the world due to almost entirely public funding?

He got tax credits from CA to build his business... then US/EV tax credits and then bounced from CA to avoid paying taxes lol... oh and in the meantime he got into the govt and got funding for his other companies from the govt... If there is ever a fleece of the taxpayer... this one is certainly towards the top lol... oh and by the way, said man and his buddies all fly private gulfstream jets all over.

Yup. Total BS. That's why I can't stand the guy, a true Charlatan if there ever was one. He's very pro American worker until they talk about making H1Bs not be a tool for tech companies to bring in cheap foreign labor that will work themselves to death just to stay in the US.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by jaffles

Can't help wonder if the horse and cart crowd were as anti change to the motor vehicles as fossil fuel is to electric. Would imagine most of the flak comes from agitators with invested interest.

Still for me EVs need to settle on a few things, like a standard charge point. You fill a petrol/diesel car or truck via with a common filler hose that's globally accepted, and stick it in a hole. EVs like Apple, want to put their controlling spin on technology and then sell globally. Their greed in part is there failing.

Think batteries should also be repairable (serviceable modular), or exchangeable without having to pull the car half apart would work in everyone's favor. You would think that lesson should be learnt with petrol engines, they may still pull the car half apart, but they don't throw the engine away if the spark plug crap out.

China reportedly can already put 600km down in 15 minutes. So really is volume of supply (energy) that needs to giddy up. Not EVs.

But lastly, I do wonder if the companies and ecopreneurs are just tapping the masses. As stated above the real users of FF like plains, trains, ships, and trucks are no closer to pulling their weight.

A big part of the push to EVs is that they're more appealing to companies to offer as "goods as a service" business model. None of it is for the benefit of consumers, that's why there's so much that's not standardized and not replaceable. It's not meant to be convenient for you, it's meant for you to pay monthly for transportation forever, and not own the vehicle at all so you're always dependent on them.

To your point, if a motor or gas tank goes out in. ICE car, it's fixable and not cost prohibitive (in most cases, certainly there's crap oxes where it is).

The horse and buggy analogy gets used a lot. But it's unrealistic. ICE and Electric vehicles (they existed back then too) had significant and irrefutable superiority over a horse. They were faster and could cover more ground in less time than a horse. You didn't need to feed them and keep them alive and healthy and give them a place to live. They didn't sometimes poop on you.

[jaffles]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

A big part of the push to EVs is that they're more appealing to companies to offer as "goods as a service" business model. None of it is for the benefit of consumers, that's why there's so much that's not standardized and not replaceable. It's not meant to be convenient for you, it's meant for you to pay monthly for transportation forever, and not own the vehicle at all so you're always dependent on them.

To your point, if a motor or gas tank goes out in. ICE car, it's fixable and not cost prohibitive (in most cases, certainly there's crap oxes where it is).

The horse and buggy analogy gets used a lot. But it's unrealistic. ICE and Electric vehicles (they existed back then too) had significant and irrefutable superiority over a horse. They were faster and could cover more ground in less time than a horse. You didn't need to feed them and keep them alive and healthy and give them a place to live. They didn't sometimes poop on you.

Too right its not about the consumer or the climate most likely, or anything other than make a profit. A click clack battery like a power tool so one could swap and go at a battery station would be too practical or universal. Or to have a battery that is not part of the cars/trucks chassis or built into the car would be too green for the whole process. The Chinese however use this exchangeable battery on the back of a day cab just like sleeper that clicks and clacks, but who takes note of the Chinese.

By my math an EV truck does the same miles for 50% less than a diesel, kicker is an American or European EV truck is conveniently priced double what a diesel cost. Its all mute however as you simply can't buy one in Australia. Well not as a sole operator nor a small fleet owner, and to be honest its one manufacturer open to it all, Volvo. Energy is at 33c kw which they all moan about here, but its half the cost of diesel at $1.90lt, saving me 100K a year. I work off a mountain so go down full and run undulating country to the sea, then come back empty. I'd use 300kw a day but trying to get the grid to supply that is also impossible.

So frustrating as the mindset of of a big country needs a big man in a big truck to do a big days work with a big big motor still rain current and true down hear. Dealers, government, the grid no one appears interested, is set up, trained, or has the infrastructure to deal with the future that been coming for the past decade. So the dirty ol diesel prevails and the beat goes on. Mean while governance hand out 10 billion in diesel subsidies to oil companies each year to keep the donations coming in for the political cause, EV subsidies to consumers $0

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by jaffles

Too right its not about the consumer or the climate most likely, or anything other than make a profit. A click clack battery like a power tool so one could swap and go at a battery station would be too practical or universal. Or to have a battery that is not part of the cars/trucks chassis or built into the car would be too green for the whole process. The Chinese however use this exchangeable battery on the back of a day cab just like sleeper that clicks and clacks, but who takes note of the Chinese.

By my math an EV truck does the same miles for 50% less than a diesel, kicker is an American or European EV truck is conveniently priced double what a diesel cost. Its all mute however as you simply can't buy one in Australia. Well not as a sole operator nor a small fleet owner, and to be honest its one manufacturer open to it all, Volvo. Energy is at 33c kw which they all moan about here, but its half the cost of diesel at $1.90lt, saving me 100K a year. I work off a mountain so go down full and run undulating country to the sea, then come back empty. I'd use 300kw a day but trying to get the grid to supply that is also impossible.

So frustrating as the mindset of of a big country needs a big man in a big truck to do a big days work with a big big motor still rain current and true down hear. Dealers, government, the grid no one appears interested, is set up, trained, or has the infrastructure to deal with the future that been coming for the past decade. So the dirty ol diesel prevails and the beat goes on. Mean while governance hand out 10 billion in diesel subsidies to oil companies each year to keep the donations coming in for the political cause, EV subsidies to consumers $0

I looked into a Lightning EV a couple weeks ago. It's rated for up to 310 miles of range. Most users say they get like 270-280 highway. It's fine as a commute to work, drove to home Depot truck, but you couldn't realistically tow a boat or RV to vacation with it.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Holset

Look at this retarded idea! ��

It isn't an idea.
Just some random online guy trolling, triggering other trolls.

Originally Posted by W2k

I think the main "problem" with the USA is that y'all live in an absolutely massive (and beautiful) country and a lot of it just isn't very densely populated at all, so it's hard to get economies of scale in building lots and lots of EV charging infrastructure, like we have here in the richer bits of Europe.

Neah, we've solved that problem may years ago. You can L3 charge anywhere along the interstate highways, crossing US up and down, left and right. L2 chargers at many hotels, etc.
The practical problem is that public chargers are all pricing kWH at ~3-10X what it costs me to charge at home or at work.
Lack of competition in public EV charging is undermining financial ROI on driving EVs long-distance.

Originally Posted by thebmw

But the big issue is that EV's are still not clean energy. When articles like this come out, it continues to erode any credibility of the pro-EV movement. Only clean energy we have now is wind, solar, and hydrogen. Hydrogen being the only potential solution for vehicles. But since Elon bashed it, we've gone down this alternative EV path that has huge environmental and geopolitical impacts.

Definition of "clean" energy is highly elusive. Nothing is really clean if you take enough inputs into account.
Hydrogen is financial and technological dead-end for transportation use-cases, and is certainly not "clean" by any measure.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The problem that EV have is inexpensive gasoline (and diesel).

Not exactly true.
My cost per mile driven in EV vs. ICE cars is ~4.4x cheaper in EVs.


The bigger problem with relying on oil is that it goes through historical cycles of significant price variability, and is subject to international geopolitical disruptions. That, and the fact that every significant oil producer nation wants to destroy or undermine Wester Civilization.

Other than those two "little" problems, oil is awesome.

a

[Phillies8008]

I really wish people wouldn't fall for rage-bait headlines – they want you to be mad, stay mad, and above all click, and people fall for it hook, line, and sinker. I also wish we didn't let morons turn the type of fuel a vehicle uses into a stupid political issue. It's not.

I have an EV (i4). I have an ICE vehicle (Z4). I love them both, for different reasons. It's really not hard to be open-minded, but here we are.

EVs are a fantastic option for a lot of people, but certainly not for everyone. As noted above, towing stuff long-distances is crappy in an EV, for instance. When people ask me about EVs, I go out of my way to explain the downsides, because there's no point in recommending something that's not going to be appropriate for their needs. For example:

1) If you travel lots of long distances, stick with ICE. Overall, refueling is going to be quicker and easier. I only take occasional long trips, so I'm okay with taking slightly longer to get there – for the 99% of the time I'm only driving back and forth to work, around town, etc., an EV is perfect for me. But if I traveled a lot, I definitely would be driving ICE.

2) If you can't use level 2 charging (240v plug) at home, stick with ICE. Level 1 charging (regular household plug) is just too slow, and relying on only level 3 charging will erase any fuel savings, as well as be very inconvenient. Level 2 charging at your house is EV's sweet spot, hands-down.

Given that it fits my use-case very well, I absolutely love EVs and will almost certainly get another one when my i4's lease is up. They're quick, markedly cheaper to operate, quiet, and smooth. I absolutely do not miss paying for gas, oil changes, spark plugs, serpentine belts, etc., etc., etc. But the fact that it fits my use-case doesn't mean it fits yours, and you know what? That's okay. One-size doesn't have to fit all.

BUT: that being said, I'll be the first guy to admit that there's just a certain something about the purr of an inline-six, and I adore manual transmissions. A lot is gained in EVs, but certainly something is lost as well. That's always the case. Of course, that's why I have my Z4

[jaffles]

Phillies, I recall people didn't first like diesel for daily drivers because the bowser handles had a reputation of being dirty and covered in diesel. Or they blew black smoke, were slow, noisy, and had this funny glow plug thing. My 330d is none of it but that's also 70 years evolution.

Think shock jocks have used range anxiety extremely well for their purposes. The EV really was to address emission and pollution in cities for public health around respiratory concerns. Most people do less than 150km on their daily jaunt of school, work, shopping. So to run a clean car in the city but have the pollution source (power station) out back saved peoples lives. Range, towing capability, charge speed, or those death trap fire bomb batteries have been extorted hard as a reason EVs are no good, full stop.

As you say no servicing, potential to run for free or very cheaply, quite, clean, reliable or even peaceful are often undersold but catch peoples attention really quickly, especially as they see more and more on the road every day. Imagine only having to put tyres and brake pads on a car. Or just tyres if you use the regenerative braking mostly.

I'm recon horse owners also felt their new car didn't smell or have a personality like their old horse, but the new car just had something better. Think EVs will be the same.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by afadeev

It isn't an idea.


Not exactly true.
My cost per mile driven in EV vs. ICE cars is ~4.4x cheaper in EVs.
Attachment 3840375

a

You parsed my post and took the quoted comment out of context; completely misunderstanding what my post said.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

I really wish people wouldn't fall for rage-bait headlines – they want you to be mad, stay mad, and above all click, and people fall for it hook, line, and sinker. I also wish we didn't let morons turn the type of fuel a vehicle uses into a stupid political issue. It's not.

I have an EV (i4). I have an ICE vehicle (Z4). I love them both, for different reasons. It's really not hard to be open-minded, but here we are.

EVs are a fantastic option for a lot of people, but certainly not for everyone. As noted above, towing stuff long-distances is crappy in an EV, for instance. When people ask me about EVs, I go out of my way to explain the downsides, because there's no point in recommending something that's not going to be appropriate for their needs. For example:

1) If you travel lots of long distances, stick with ICE. Overall, refueling is going to be quicker and easier. I only take occasional long trips, so I'm okay with taking slightly longer to get there – for the 99% of the time I'm only driving back and forth to work, around town, etc., an EV is perfect for me. But if I traveled a lot, I definitely would be driving ICE.

2) If you can't use level 2 charging (240v plug) at home, stick with ICE. Level 1 charging (regular household plug) is just too slow, and relying on only level 3 charging will erase any fuel savings, as well as be very inconvenient. Level 2 charging at your house is EV's sweet spot, hands-down.

Given that it fits my use-case very well, I absolutely love EVs and will almost certainly get another one when my i4's lease is up. They're quick, markedly cheaper to operate, quiet, and smooth. I absolutely do not miss paying for gas, oil changes, spark plugs, serpentine belts, etc., etc., etc. But the fact that it fits my use-case doesn't mean it fits yours, and you know what? That's okay. One-size doesn't have to fit all.

BUT: that being said, I'll be the first guy to admit that there's just a certain something about the purr of an inline-six, and I adore manual transmissions. A lot is gained in EVs, but certainly something is lost as well. That's always the case. Of course, that's why I have my Z4

This is precisely the current situation with EV with the level of battery technology at a tolerable cost point for most of the automotive market (not considering use case). Well said.

M5Rick's great EV thread, now long since banned, delved into the political side of the argument, which ignores the "one-size doesn't fit all" topic, that most of us who posted contradictory comments were labeled as anti-EV. None of us ever argued EV greatly met the use case of local, low mileage trips utilizing at-home L2 charging; we did argue the regulatory effort to eventually ban ICEV in favor of the climate is/was quite disconcerting.

You state you don't miss "paying for gas, oil changes, spark plugs, serpentine belts, etc." But in reality, modern ICEV really do not have oppressive maintenance requirements, especially if ICEV are used in the same use case as EV for local, low mileage travel. For me, I enjoy the maintenace aspect of ICEV because I feel closer to the machine as it gives me opportunity to keep track of the entire health of the vehicle, not just the cost of the fuel. I think it is still fair to say that in the point of view of A-to-B transportation, as an example, a lower trim level ICE Camry or Accord is less expensive to own (lifecycle) through approximately 120,000 miles (10+ years) than the lowest priced Tesla Model 3. The MSRP delta between the two cars (Camry vs. Model 3) pays for a lot of ICEV miles in fuel cost. This ties back to my earlier comment regarding EV's problem is inexpensive gasoline. afadeev

I'm signed up to buy the Slate EV truck if they ever make it to market and are sustainable as a small manufacturer. I need to eventually replace my ICEV pickup as it is aging out from New England road salt abuse and GM's reluctance to maintain inventory for some critical chassis parts. What I use the H3T for now, the Slate EV truck will easily accomplish. The use case is, runs to the petrol station to get small amounts of ethanol-free gasoline for my lawn equipment and diesel fuel for my tractor, and bi-weekly trash dump (errr... waste transfer station) runs.

And, "BUT: that being said, I'll be the first guy to admit that there's just a certain something about the purr of an inline-six, and I adore manual transmissions", ABSOLUTELY!

[Phillies8008]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

This is precisely the current situation with EV with the level of battery technology at a tolerable cost point for most of the automotive market (not considering use case). Well said.

M5Rick's great EV thread, now long since banned, delved into the political side of the argument, which ignores the "one-size doesn't fit all" topic, that most of us who posted contradictory comments were labeled as anti-EV. None of us ever argued EV greatly met the use case of local, low mileage trips utilizing at-home L2 charging; we did argue the regulatory effort to eventually ban ICEV in favor of the climate is/was quite disconcerting.

You state you don't miss "paying for gas, oil changes, spark plugs, serpentine belts, etc." But in reality, modern ICEV really do not have oppressive maintenance requirements, especially if ICEV are used in the same use case as EV for local, low mileage travel. For me, I enjoy the maintenace aspect of ICEV because I feel closer to the machine as it gives me opportunity to keep track of the entire health of the vehicle, not just the cost of the fuel. I think it is still fair to say that in the point of view of A-to-B transportation, as an example, a lower trim level ICE Camry or Accord is less expensive to own (lifecycle) through approximately 120,000 miles (10+ years) than the lowest priced Tesla Model 3. The MSRP delta between the two cars (Camry vs. Model 3) pays for a lot of ICEV miles in fuel cost. This ties back to my earlier comment regarding EV's problem is inexpensive gasoline. afadeev

I'm signed up to buy the Slate EV truck if they ever make it to market and are sustainable as a small manufacturer. I need to eventually replace my ICEV pickup as it is aging out from New England road salt abuse and GM's reluctance to maintain inventory for some critical chassis parts. What I use the H3T for now, the Slate EV truck will easily accomplish. The use case is, runs to the petrol station to get small amounts of ethanol-free gasoline for my lawn equipment and diesel fuel for my tractor, and bi-weekly trash dump (errr... waste transfer station) runs.

And, "BUT: that being said, I'll be the first guy to admit that there's just a certain something about the purr of an inline-six, and I adore manual transmissions", ABSOLUTELY!

Yeah, just like everything that has become a stupid wedge issue in this country, it seems like a lot of people are unable – or unwilling – to have a reasonable discussion about the merits or failings of EVs. They're great in some cases, not so much in others, and that's okay. Nothing fits every scenario.

You and I are in agreement on most of the stuff we wrote, I think. I definitely agree that government mandates as to EV adoption/ICE bans were and are stupid, as well as wholly unrealistic. Unless battery technology really makes some enormous leaps in the near future, which doesn't seem likely, ICE vehicles will be around for decades. There's just too many use-cases where EVs don't fit, and revolutionary battery technology seems like one of those things that's always "five years away". But even today's technology can serve a lot people very well.

As far as maintenance goes, I also agree that today's ICE engines are more reliable than ever, and can be more-or-less free of large maintenance expenses. But, I think it's inarguable that EVs are simpler – there's just so fewer moving parts that can break or need service, and there's obviously very little ongoing maintenance such as oil changes. While it's not like ICE maintenance is some extraordinarily onerous mountain to climb, "almost none" is still better than "some". In the little over two years that I've owned by i4, I've done exactly zero maintenance to it; I did bring it in for the BMW two year checkup, but honestly, that was only a CYA thing so they could never point at me not doing it as a cause for any potential problems. They basically did nothing. In that time, were it a 440i instead of an i4, I would have, at the minimum, have done three oil changes and about to do the fourth*. It's not the end of the world, but it's something. Long-term, EV maintenance is going to be less of a burden due to less parts to fail.

And I know: everyone states that the battery is a huge expense if it dies. And it would be. But: my i4 has an 8-year/100,000 warranty for the battery, and from what we've seen in the last 12ish years of EVs being on the road battery failure rates are very low, and the loss of range as they age is also fairly low – certainly low enough that the car is very usable. Honestly, the battery is one of the last things that concerns me. And let's be honest: while a failed battery would be expensive, a failed engine in an ICE vehicle – an outlier just like a failed battery – is a pretty catastrophic expense, sometimes in the same ballpark as the battery would be.

As to whether or not an EV is going to make financial sense versus an ICE vehicle, that's going to be highly dependent upon a bunch of variables – electricity cost, gas cost, driving habits, make/model, used/new, etc. Just like buying any vehicle, you're going to have to do your homework and figure out what fits your needs best. It could be an EV, but it equally could be ICE. Buy what works best for you!

I agree that low gas prices hurt EV adoption, but I'd argue that they're kept artificially low in the US, something that people who complained about the EV subsidies didn't want to talk about. But fixing that is political suicide, so it's not going to change. Realistically, if EVs are going to be have large-scale adoption in the US that's going to be a major hurdle for them to overcome. But one has to fight the battles in front of you, not the ones you wish you could fight.

I've also reserved a Slate, just for the hell of it, really. I'd like to have a cheap pickup, but really don't want to drive a truck. I definitely don't have an everyday use for one, but it's one of those things that would be nice to have. If they can fulfill their promises in the time frame and price they're talking about, I might get one. Otherwise I'll probably just pick up an old Tacoma with 175,000 miles or so.

And yeah, as much as I love my EV, you'll have to pry my 6-cylinder 6MT Z4M out of my cold, dead hands, lol. Driving it is an experience that EVs can't replicate, and honestly, they should't try. They should be what they are - if it's enough, people will buy them. If it's not, c'est la vie.

*Full disclosure: I change the oil in my ICE vehicles every 5,000 miles, manufacturer "recommendation" be damned. I simply don't buy that vehicles can go 10,000 (or more!) miles between oil changes without it having a detrimental effect on the engine. Also: I know that the oil changes would've been free in the time I've owned the i4 (were it ICE), but that's not really the point. The example will be ongoing for the life of the car.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by W2k

I've been owning and driving primarily BEVs for more than 5 years at this point, loving every bit of it. And the tech is well beyond where charging times are actually a problem that needs solving - but it's one of the few areas where there are still major technical gains to show, so of course every incremental step change from 200->300->400 kW gets wildly publicized. Speed parity with gasoline pumps will come eventually, for the people who incessantly claim to have that as their last major roadblock to buying an EV.

This has nothing to do with any of that. It's one random "journalist" using his platform at a major-ish EV news site to peddle an absolutely batshit insane idea. He has no power or influence to speak of, only a strong incentive from his employer to bring in the clicks; there is no actual proposal under consideration in any chamber of authority to do what he suggests. He knows full well that by posting it, he is ragebaiting people on the internet who don't realize that this is should simply be dismissed for the utter tripe that it is. Close thread.

I think the point the OP was trying to make is that's how batshit crazy these people are. What we do in the US and Europe is completely irrelevant anyway until China and India start doing something.

[NYG]

We're all suffering and paying out the ass while China, India and the third world is increasing their output of climate changing dust.

Fuck these corrupt politicians.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by NYG

We're all suffering and paying out the ass while China, India and the third world is increasing their output of climate changing dust.

Fuck these corrupt politicians.

Yup. And you're gonna have all the moral superiority people coming out to tell us how we need to switch to BEV for the planet.

[jaffles]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

I think the point the OP was trying to make is that's how batshit crazy these people are. What we do in the US and Europe is completely irrelevant anyway until China and India start doing something.

to play this card however, its comparing 2.9 billion people to 1.3. And that 1.1, or certainly 330 million consume more than the 2.9. Then it could be argued China manufacturers what much of the world consumes, so not surprising they have emissions. But they are also probably the world leader in addressing them. Sure they are whacking in coal power stations like plants, but they are building solar/battery power stations like mushrooms. Interestingly they have not built a nuclear station in years and appear to have dropped that side of energy generation.

Down under people argue why bother when we are a spec on the map. Its a big country with small population. But that like saying the neighbor is a crack dealer so I'll become one also. Australian pollute more per head of pop than the rest of the world, perhaps because we have it so good and use this small impact argument to justify our behavior. Really its just gutless politicians not pulling our weight.

[jaffles]

To the maintenance of EV V ICE.

I've always wondered where does the oil go from ICE changes. You hear lovers of one brand suggesting Xs oil is recycled as away of slandering. I have asked these X companies if true which never is. But I can't find or buy recycled/filtered oil anywhere. 30lt every time in the truck, 10.5lt in the 4x4, 8.5lt in the BMW x 2, 4.2lt in the Prius, 4.4lt in the Camry, 5.8lt in the generator, and that's just the motors in one house.

So that begs the question where is it going, landfill?

Filters, belts, replaced parts, rags all go to land fill. And if you go look in a skip bin at any mechanical workshop its a mix of plastic, metal, clothing, carboard, you name it. All going to sit and stagnate for many many years as land fill. Most have 44gfals of old collected oil for ?

If a battery gives you 10+ years of serviceable free service, then a % is recycled that has to be a good step forward. However I was looking at a Hyundai Ioniq for the wife. 15k car worth 25 when new 5 years earlier. Battery just out of warranty and had 75K km on the car. A replacement battery was 30K + only available through the dealer with installation somewhere between 4.5 and 6K because the body had to come off the car. Now I believe the battery is good for 10-15 years, or 300,000km +, but if drops one cell then the whole show just goes in the bin. Wife wasn't prepared to roll that dice so its how I ended up with a diesel BMW. I reckon if EVs don't address easy battery replacement or cell serviceability, ICE will be around forever as few will buy second hand EVs.

[Phillies8008]

Originally Posted by jaffles

To the maintenance of EV V ICE.

I've always wondered where does the oil go from ICE changes. You hear lovers of one brand suggesting Xs oil is recycled as away of slandering. I have asked these X companies if true which never is. But I can't find or buy recycled/filtered oil anywhere. 30lt every time in the truck, 10.5lt in the 4x4, 8.5lt in the BMW x 2, 4.2lt in the Prius, 4.4lt in the Camry, 5.8lt in the generator, and that's just the motors in one house.

So that begs the question where is it going, landfill?

Filters, belts, replaced parts, rags all go to land fill. And if you go look in a skip bin at any mechanical workshop its a mix of plastic, metal, clothing, carboard, you name it. All going to sit and stagnate for many many years as land fill. Most have 44gfals of old collected oil for ?

If a battery gives you 10+ years of serviceable free service, then a % is recycled that has to be a good step forward. However I was looking at a Hyundai Ioniq for the wife. 15k car worth 25 when new 5 years earlier. Battery just out of warranty and had 75K km on the car. A replacement battery was 30K + only available through the dealer with installation somewhere between 4.5 and 6K because the body had to come off the car. Now I believe the battery is good for 10-15 years, or 300,000km +, but if drops one cell then the whole show just goes in the bin. Wife wasn't prepared to roll that dice so its how I ended up with a diesel BMW. I reckon if EVs don't address easy battery replacement or cell serviceability, ICE will be around forever as few will buy second hand EVs.

FWIW, the newer batteries being used now do have individual, replaceable cells. BMW's upcoming Neue Klasse vehicles will use something like this.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by jaffles

To the maintenance of EV V ICE.

I've always wondered where does the oil go from ICE changes. You hear lovers of one brand suggesting Xs oil is recycled as away of slandering. I have asked these X companies if true which never is. But I can't find or buy recycled/filtered oil anywhere. 30lt every time in the truck, 10.5lt in the 4x4, 8.5lt in the BMW x 2, 4.2lt in the Prius, 4.4lt in the Camry, 5.8lt in the generator, and that's just the motors in one house.

So that begs the question where is it going, landfill?

Filters, belts, replaced parts, rags all go to land fill. And if you go look in a skip bin at any mechanical workshop its a mix of plastic, metal, clothing, carboard, you name it. All going to sit and stagnate for many many years as land fill. Most have 44gfals of old collected oil for ?

If a battery gives you 10+ years of serviceable free service, then a % is recycled that has to be a good step forward. However I was looking at a Hyundai Ioniq for the wife. 15k car worth 25 when new 5 years earlier. Battery just out of warranty and had 75K km on the car. A replacement battery was 30K + only available through the dealer with installation somewhere between 4.5 and 6K because the body had to come off the car. Now I believe the battery is good for 10-15 years, or 300,000km +, but if drops one cell then the whole show just goes in the bin. Wife wasn't prepared to roll that dice so its how I ended up with a diesel BMW. I reckon if EVs don't address easy battery replacement or cell serviceability, ICE will be around forever as few will buy second hand EVs.

I can't speak for everyone, but in my case, I give my used oil to a local small business who uses it to heat his commercial small engine/lawn equipment repair shop. Every few years he gives me an empty 55 gal. drum that I fill over time and then take it back to him. In 2024 he was so in need of used oil he came and picked it up from me.

I think is law in most states that auto parts stores that sell new oil must accept used oil for recycling. It might be a Federal law. But every parts store in my locality has a used oil tank where customers can deposit their used oil. I think most repair shops heat their garages with the used oil they collect.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by NYG

We're all suffering and paying out the ass while China, India and the third world is increasing their output of climate changing dust.

Fuck these corrupt politicians.

So, I had to repair my bridge that crosses the river I live on. It's a culvert pipe bridge constructed of concrete. This morning, I just looked up what I paid for concrete to build the original bridge in 2004. A cubic yard of delivered concrete in 2004 was $87. Extrapolate that price to 2025 dollars and a cubic yard in 2025 should cost $140.

The repairs I did this past month in September 2025, I paid $250/cubic yard for concrete. At some point the internet decided concrete is a massive globalwarmingclimatechange impact product; you can Google it. I never knew concrete was bad for the climate; I always figure it made everyone's life better.

I'm sure some Green politicians somewhere (cough-cough, Washington DC) made the price of concrete drastically increase under the guise of saving the planet.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by jaffles

You hear lovers of one brand suggesting Xs oil is recycled as away of slandering. I have asked these X companies if true which never is. But I can't find or buy recycled/filtered oil anywhere.

When recycling, some materials can be returned to basically pristine condition (I believe glass and some metals are like that) while others can't (most plastics). These get used in products that don't need high quality materials. I imagine that used motor oil is too contaminated and broken down to be usable as base stock for new motor oil without expensive refining, so I would imagine it could be used for things like asphalt or bitumen. Similar to shredded tires used in playground rubber mats and not into new tires.

Does that happen in practice? I have no idea. I dump my used motor oil and other fluids at the county's recycling center, but I have no way of knowing what do they actually do with that afterwards.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

At some point the internet decided concrete is a massive globalwarmingclimatechange impact product; you can Google it. I never knew concrete was bad for the climate; I always figure it made everyone's life better.

To be fair producing Portland cement is very energy intensive and produces a lot of CO2 off gassing as the raw materials are turned into cement. This is not something new or a decision by any shadowy cabal. I'll leave the question of who should pay for the environmental cost for the politicians.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'm sure some Green politicians somewhere (cough-cough, Washington DC) made the price of concrete drastically increase under the guise of saving the planet.

Far more likely to be corporates being corporates, piggy-backing on inflation and tariffs even if they have nothing to do with it.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Phillies8008

Yeah, just like everything that has become a stupid wedge issue in this country, it seems like a lot of people are unable – or unwilling – to have a reasonable discussion about the merits or failings of EVs. They're great in some cases, not so much in others, and that's okay. Nothing fits every scenario.

You and I are in agreement on most of the stuff we wrote, I think. I definitely agree that government mandates as to EV adoption/ICE bans were and are stupid, as well as wholly unrealistic. Unless battery technology really makes some enormous leaps in the near future, which doesn't seem likely, ICE vehicles will be around for decades. There's just too many use-cases where EVs don't fit, and revolutionary battery technology seems like one of those things that's always "five years away". But even today's technology can serve a lot people very well.

As far as maintenance goes, I also agree that today's ICE engines are more reliable than ever, and can be more-or-less free of large maintenance expenses. But, I think it's inarguable that EVs are simpler – there's just so fewer moving parts that can break or need service, and there's obviously very little ongoing maintenance such as oil changes. While it's not like ICE maintenance is some extraordinarily onerous mountain to climb, "almost none" is still better than "some". In the little over two years that I've owned by i4, I've done exactly zero maintenance to it; I did bring it in for the BMW two year checkup, but honestly, that was only a CYA thing so they could never point at me not doing it as a cause for any potential problems. They basically did nothing. In that time, were it a 440i instead of an i4, I would have, at the minimum, have done three oil changes and about to do the fourth*. It's not the end of the world, but it's something. Long-term, EV maintenance is going to be less of a burden due to less parts to fail.

And I know: everyone states that the battery is a huge expense if it dies. And it would be. But: my i4 has an 8-year/100,000 warranty for the battery, and from what we've seen in the last 12ish years of EVs being on the road battery failure rates are very low, and the loss of range as they age is also fairly low – certainly low enough that the car is very usable. Honestly, the battery is one of the last things that concerns me. And let's be honest: while a failed battery would be expensive, a failed engine in an ICE vehicle – an outlier just like a failed battery – is a pretty catastrophic expense, sometimes in the same ballpark as the battery would be.

As to whether or not an EV is going to make financial sense versus an ICE vehicle, that's going to be highly dependent upon a bunch of variables – electricity cost, gas cost, driving habits, make/model, used/new, etc. Just like buying any vehicle, you're going to have to do your homework and figure out what fits your needs best. It could be an EV, but it equally could be ICE. Buy what works best for you!

I agree that low gas prices hurt EV adoption, but I'd argue that they're kept artificially low in the US, something that people who complained about the EV subsidies didn't want to talk about. But fixing that is political suicide, so it's not going to change. Realistically, if EVs are going to be have large-scale adoption in the US that's going to be a major hurdle for them to overcome. But one has to fight the battles in front of you, not the ones you wish you could fight.

I've also reserved a Slate, just for the hell of it, really. I'd like to have a cheap pickup, but really don't want to drive a truck. I definitely don't have an everyday use for one, but it's one of those things that would be nice to have. If they can fulfill their promises in the time frame and price they're talking about, I might get one. Otherwise I'll probably just pick up an old Tacoma with 175,000 miles or so.

And yeah, as much as I love my EV, you'll have to pry my 6-cylinder 6MT Z4M out of my cold, dead hands, lol. Driving it is an experience that EVs can't replicate, and honestly, they should't try. They should be what they are - if it's enough, people will buy them. If it's not, c'est la vie.

*Full disclosure: I change the oil in my ICE vehicles every 5,000 miles, manufacturer "recommendation" be damned. I simply don't buy that vehicles can go 10,000 (or more!) miles between oil changes without it having a detrimental effect on the engine. Also: I know that the oil changes would've been free in the time I've owned the i4 (were it ICE), but that's not really the point. The example will be ongoing for the life of the car.

Oh boy, right now on the Slate forum I'm in a battle regarding ICEV vs. EV reliability. Got the "Troll" label already! LOL.

I'm interested in getting an EV just for the engineering aspect of it and my curiosity. I had an electric lawn tractor in the 1970s made by General Electric, which was a fantastic machine. I'd like to see how the architecture translates to the automotive application. I've driven a few EVs. I get why people like them.

I don't agree with the idiom that gasoline prices are kept artificially low in the US. I'd say in other countries gasoline is overtaxed.