[Game]

A bit bummed about the carbon buckets.

Also, the lack of a DCT almost ensures I'll be going MT once again.

[robopp]

Originally Posted by M2Cmtl

I’m getting old I guess because I think 2018-2019 was peak ICE age. Already downhill from here. For the next 10-15 years it’s just going to be a transition to full EV. At some point I’m either going to have to drive an Automatic whatever or just buy used cars

What about 2018-19 makes you feel like it was peak ICE?

[M3ditate]

Originally Posted by deceptiv-cs

None of it matters if it’s ugly- getting made in Mexico will be enough of an obstacle to get over. It would be interesting to compare build qualities of the two plants.

The robots speak Spanish, don't worry.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by F8SEVEN

There are rumblings that it may return.

Oh just in time for g87 m2 which is made in Mexico instead. FML.

[Zuzu]

Thank god !!!!
6MT all the way.

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by akkando

Oh just in time for g87 m2 which is made in Mexico instead. FML.

Right, but if it did and the euro G87 were made in Leipzig, there's still hope!

[clutchdj]

Originally Posted by M3ditate

The robots speak Spanish, don't worry.

The difference is in the raw materials that are being made/used (interior switch’s, glass and other bits) and there more than likly is a huge savings on vehicle transport costs.

We have seen this with VW. Only reason why manufactures build in low labor foreign countries is be cause of
#1 cost & #2 cost savings.

Thank God Porsche has not decided to go this route at least with the GT cars.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by F8SEVEN

Right, but if it did and the euro G87 were made in Leipzig, there's still hope!

Would they really keep the parts on hand to make a North America spec car just for the handful of people who do Euro delivery on a 2 series?

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by akkando

Would they really keep the parts on hand to make a North America spec car just for the handful of people who do Euro delivery on a 2 series?

It would depend on how many of the parts are Europe built in the first place. Even if they aren't, parts would be shipped to Leipzig. I doubt they will, but it's worth hoping for. Personally, if BMW offered a Leipzig built G87 for ED, I'd happily pay M3/4 money. Otherwise, the F87 is likely the end of the line for me with BMW.

[ddnmkun]

LOL you guys make it sound like my F87 DCT is going to worth more value in the future because it’s a DCT.

[EXE46]

Originally Posted by GeorgeA

I disagree. DCT is the best gearbox for those looking for maximum driving performance and enjoyment at the limit. It is the choice for enthusiasts- just look at everyone running these cars on the ring. All of Schirmer (and any other serious builder) only do DCT.

A DCT allows the driver to enjoy the chassis at the limit without sacrificing speed and control to shift. Chris Harris has a great feature about this - I just don't remember which video it was in.

Also, the DCT had SO much character that is lacking with automatics and manuals. The ZF8 can't compete, it's not even in the same league.

I will be getting mine in manual now, but if DCT was an option - it would be hard to choose.

I disagree regardless of what your or CH says. Nothing beats a manual period. ZF is the substitute for the DCT and while there's no torque converter involved they do share some fundamental characteristics. In that both have automatic modes, as well as some computer deciding what is optimal. Also both have the capability to make any novice looks like a great driver.

Those are facts and the ZF in the G8x is very darn close to the DCT hence why they dump it to save money. Same can't be said for the manual. Just funny that you're trying to dismiss manual and proclaim DCT is more engaging maybe for those who can't drive manual. BMW themselves said it best. Those who want a pure driving experience will choose the manual. That right there tells you all you need to know.

[GeorgeA]

Originally Posted by EXE46

I disagree regardless of what your or CH says. Nothing beats a manual period. ZF is the substitute for the DCT and while there's no torque converter involved they do share some fundamental characteristics. In that both have automatic modes, as well as some computer deciding what is optimal. Also both have the capability to make any novice looks like a great driver.

Those are facts and the ZF in the G8x is very darn close to the DCT hence why they dump it to save money. Same can't be said for the manual. Just funny that you're trying to dismiss manual and proclaim DCT is more engaging maybe for those who can't drive manual. BMW themselves said it best. Those who want a pure driving experience will choose the manual. That right there tells you all you need to know.

Once you spend some time driving these cars at the limit on demanding tracks, you will understand why DCT is king. I am speaking purely track/at the limit driving (for regular street driving, I agree, manual is more engaging and enjoyable). You won't be able to push a manual/auto car to the same limits as a DCT.

As far as making a novice driver look great? Merely shifting gears doesn't really make or break a driver. Any good driver will be able to push the limits on either gearbox, chassis control at speed is much more difficult and skill demanding than shifting up and down.

Again, this is why serious track cars like Schirmers are DCT.. it's not because they are novice drivers, it's because at those limits, DCT really shines.

[Multimodal]

You guys are debating different things. A manual is unquestionably the best choice for driver engagement and enjoyment. A DCT is unquestionably a better choice than a manual for absolute performance.

Now I think it's a real question whether a DCT is measurably better than the ZF8 automatic in performance outcomes (e.g., shift speed). People are saying the DCT is more fun and engaging. Well, maybe that's true because it's clunkier and you've associated that raw feeling with driver engagement. But even so I would passionately argue that a manual is still better than a DCT for driver engagement.

So BMW has now given us two more distinct transmission options in the ZF8 automatic vs. ZF S6-53 manual. I'm ok with that if the ZF8 performs as well as the DCT. Who cares if it clunks as hard...

[Advevo]

I have an m2 DCT and a manual m2 now and i have raced a ZF8 m235i on track.

M2 DCT is faster on track but the Manual is more Fun. I am not interested in the last seconds when i drive my street car on track fun and engagement is more important then the laptimes. If you go for laptimes buy a racecar.

Then ZF8 is totally not suited for track it is sluggish on downshifts in late braking zones. For every day it is a nice comfort gearbox. No way i would order that in my fun drivers car.

When the choice is ZF8 or Manual it is a no brainer. Manual for sure!

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by Advevo

I have an m2 DCT and a manual m2 now and i have raced a ZF8 m235i on track.

M2 DCT is faster on track but the Manual is more Fun. I am not interested in the last seconds when i drive my street car on track fun and engagement is more important then the laptimes. If you go for laptimes buy a racecar.

Then ZF8 is totally not suited for track it is sluggish on downshifts in late braking zones. For every day it is a nice comfort gearbox. No way i would order that in my fun drivers car.

When the choice is ZF8 or Manual it is a no brainer. Manual for sure!

I believe for us since DCT is gone we will mostly revert back to manual, I also drove my past M235i on track and I did not really like the ZF8 behavior plus too many gears or at least not spaced in a way don't feel the useless ones like the AMG 9 speed.

For the others that will never see a track regularly they will be 95 % well served by the ZF8. Nurburgring might be a bit different from your local 2-5mile track, the ZF8 might be less annoying with all the long stretches and open space.

[mslam02]

Originally Posted by F8SEVEN

There are rumblings that it may return.

I hope these rumblings turn into reality! (and that the M2 can be part of the program, but as mentioned - Mexico plant, so who knows... )

[SW19]

Originally Posted by PLF69

I believe for us since DCT is gone we will mostly revert back to manual, I also drove my past M235i on track and I did not really like the ZF8 behavior plus too many gears or at least not spaced in a way don't feel the useless ones like the AMG 9 speed.

For the others that will never see a track regularly they will be 95 % well served by the ZF8. Nurburgring might be a bit different from your local 2-5mile track, the ZF8 might be less annoying with all the long stretches and open space.

lemetier hinted in a earlier thread that BMW might offer a smart clutch system for manual cars.There isn’t any confirmation that it will be available for the G87.


https://g80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1750591&page=4

[GeorgeA]

Originally Posted by PLF69

I believe for us since DCT is gone we will mostly revert back to manual, I also drove my past M235i on track and I did not really like the ZF8 behavior plus too many gears or at least not spaced in a way don't feel the useless ones like the AMG 9 speed.

For the others that will never see a track regularly they will be 95 % well served by the ZF8. Nurburgring might be a bit different from your local 2-5mile track, the ZF8 might be less annoying with all the long stretches and open space.

This.

ZF8 is lacking and isn’t an okay substitute for a DCT.

It’s slow and dull compared to the DCT. BMW decided to save a few bucks here but ruined the appeal of the car. But I’m glad they offer a manual at least.

[supralex]

Originally Posted by GeorgeA

This.

ZF8 is lacking and isn’t an okay substitute for a DCT.

It’s slow and dull compared to the DCT. BMW decided to save a few bucks here but ruined the appeal of the car. But I’m glad they offer a manual at least.

My g80 m3 zf8 up shift faster than my old DCT f87 m2 OG

[Advevo]

Originally Posted by supralex

My g80 m3 zf8 up shift faster than my old DCT f87 m2 OG

Go drive on track and brake very late and shift down. It is sluggish. The gear box is not fast enough on downshifts.

[GeorgeA]

Originally Posted by supralex

My g80 m3 zf8 up shift faster than my old DCT f87 m2 OG

Originally Posted by Advevo

Go drive on track and brake very late and shift down. It is sluggish. The gear box is not fast enough on downshifts.

^ this.. the ZF8 just can’t keep up when driving at the limit.

[vj123]

Originally Posted by GeorgeA

I disagree. DCT is the best gearbox for those looking for maximum driving performance and enjoyment at the limit. It is the choice for enthusiasts- just look at everyone running these cars on the ring. All of Schirmer (and any other serious builder) only do DCT.

A DCT allows the driver to enjoy the chassis at the limit without sacrificing speed and control to shift. Chris Harris has a great feature about this - I just don’t remember which video it was in.

Also, the DCT had SO much character that is lacking with automatics and manuals. The ZF8 can’t compete, it’s not even in the same league.

I will be getting mine in manual now, but if DCT was an option - it would be hard to choose.

Great summary!

I heard great reviews about ZF 8 speed and i test drove a 240 couple last week at my dealership. Not sure if i was expecting a lot on based on what i read but ZF 8 speed is no match for dual clutch transmissions. It doesn't bring in the excitement or the raw feel. Yes, DCTs are clunky at low speeds but it definitely has a great overall character.

A little bit of background, i drove manuals all my life and DSG in VAG vehicles were the first automatics i ever owned.