[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by PINeely

I like Underwood preferably loaded with XTPs for self defense ammo. Range ammo I like Georgia Arms, it's loaded hotter than most white box ammo so more analogous to your defensive loads at a great price. But I'll shoot the Walmart special too.

My two cents. Black Talon in real world applications has a pretty high success rate with incapacitation if centre mass is hit.

[zentanker]

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

My two cents. Black Talon in real world applications has a pretty high success rate with incapacitation if centre mass is hit.

Agreed.


Imagine this spiraling through your internal organs:


criminals beware.

[N54Yankee]

Just for discussions sake here an updated list from after 9/11 from Evan Marshall who's a big name in the game on actual compiled pistol shooting results, as many of you know. The big winners in one shot stops don't have fancy gimmicks like talons.

Not saying they don't work or arent effective but it reminds me of the old fishing adage. The different, intricate colors on lures are more effective at catching fishermen then fish.
http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/a...etails?id=4593

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

My two cents. Black Talon in real world applications has a pretty high success rate with incapacitation if centre mass is hit.

Underwood ballistics are far superior to Black Talon / Ranger T ballistics in 10mm which is what I typically carry. ~1000fps for the BT/RT vs 1250+fps in the Underwood loads. Black Talon was more about the big expansion, but at the cost of penetration. They found that it was more or less as effective a "manstopper" as other hollow points at the time. Modern hollow point designs beat the pants off it. But it is still a great bullet and I wouldn't feel under-equipped carrying them.

Also they don't make the BT/RT in 9x25 Dillon or 9x18 Makarov which I also like to carry from time to time.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by PINeely

Underwood ballistics are far superior to Black Talon / Ranger T ballistics in 10mm which is what I typically carry. ~1000fps for the BT/RT vs 1250+fps in the Underwood loads. Black Talon was more about the big expansion, but at the cost of penetration. They found that it was more or less as effective a "manstopper" as other hollow points at the time. Modern hollow point designs beat the pants off it. But it is still a great bullet and I wouldn't feel under-equipped carrying them.

Also they don't make the BT/RT in 9x25 Dillon or 9x18 Makarov which I also like to carry from time to time.

What I will say is that police involved shootings since the introduction of Black Talon where rounds were in centre mass were in almost all occasions fatal but also incapacitated the suspect on all occasions very quickly. Over 20,000 LEO in Ontario carry .40 cal Black Talon as their required ammo.

The other thing I will add was that the trauma surgeons and forensic pathologists don't like them because they tend to be quite sharpe and risk cuts to fingers.

Any round can incapacitate if it lands in the zone, some are more effective than others. Something like 70% of rounds fired in a gunfight are misses so it doesn't matter what your shooting if you're not hitting your target. There is ton's of info and tests out there about what's most effective, and a lot of information is conjecture and speculation....heavy rounds vs lighter faster rounds. I think the .40 is a solid round for self defence, it's fairly easy to shoot accurately and has significant stopping power. But like I said, there are lots of rounds out there that will get the job done as long as you hit centre mass.

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

What I will say is that police involved shootings since the introduction of Black Talon where rounds were in centre mass were in almost all occasions fatal but also incapacitated the suspect on all occasions very quickly. Over 20,000 LEO in Ontario carry .40 cal Black Talon as their required ammo.

Hence the amount of data on it vs lesser-carried "boutique" loads

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

The other thing I will add was that the trauma surgeons and forensic pathologists don't like them because they tend to be quite sharpe and risk cuts to fingers.

A myth. There are no documented cases of this happening and those same surgeons said there is no difference in wounding vs a conventional hollow point round.

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

Any round can incapacitate if it lands in the zone, some are more effective than others. Something like 70% of rounds fired in a gunfight are misses so it doesn't matter what your shooting if you're not hitting your target. There is ton's of info and tests out there about what's most effective, and a lot of information is conjecture and speculation....heavy rounds vs lighter faster rounds. I think the .40 is a solid round for self defence, it's fairly easy to shoot accurately and has significant stopping power. But like I said, there are lots of rounds out there that will get the job done as long as you hit centre mass.

Agreed, shot placement is king.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by PINeely

Hence the amount of data on it vs lesser-carried "boutique" loads


A myth. There are no documented cases of this happening and those same surgeons said there is no difference in wounding vs a conventional hollow point round.

Agreed, shot placement is king.

Actually, I spent time on loan to the Office of the Chief Coroner in Ontario. I heard it from the Pathologists.

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

Actually, I spent time on loan to the Office of the Chief Coroner in Ontario. I heard it from the Pathologists.

There was definitely a big buzz about how they'd be more dangerous among the medical community. We all heard about the scary black bullet coated in teflon that would go through body armor and shred our fingers. We heard that it had been banned by the government because it was simply too dangerous for us and the public at large. None of it was true of course. No report of either increased risk to medical staff, or of increased wounding to the shot person. The rumors scared everyone enough not to buy it though, so Winchester pulled it in 1993 after one year of sale. If you have em keep em as a collectors item, there are simply better defensive loads out there.

[chowser51]

Our PD actually stocked up on .40 Black Talon before they were pulled. There were cases upon cases of the stuff and it was our issued ammo until 2002. Yep, they kept using the ancient ammo because we had a lot of it. In 2002 we switched from the S&W 4046 to the Glock 22 and switched ammo to Federal. We just left the Black Talon ammo in the back of the room. In 2008 we switched to 357SIG so we decided to shoot up all the old .40 ammo for practice before we switched guns. I'm sure people would've cried if they saw all those empty boxes of "collector" ammo.

[Grumpy Old Man]

'

[Ross61]

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

'

Nice... is that a MKIII?

I have a MKIII Hunter which accompanies me during deer season to ensure I can keep squirrels from tugging on my hat (had that happen) and bobcats who'll learn what "SSS" means.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by Ross61

Nice... is that a MKIII?

I have a MKIII Hunter which accompanies me during deer season to ensure I can keep squirrels from tugging on my hat (had that happen) and bobcats who'll learn what "SSS" means.

Good eye, yup MKIII. I also have a Smith and Wesson 686 on order for her. I know big difference, but she's shot 40 cal and 9mm in the past, besides I have a bunch of .38 lying around. She's just getting into shooting, so the MKIII seemed like a good gun to learn the basics on. I have to admit it's really accurate, easy and fun to shoot. It came with a little rail on top so I might pick up a little vortex or something similar for it.

[Rhidium]

Bit of fun the other day. Not even half of the items me and my friends brought out.

[Mason Hatcher]

What a great thread, I knew joining this forum would be fun.

[1MOREMOD]

Sold my xdm.

[N54Yankee]

Here's something interesting we can talk about. I'm curious to know what you guys have and want. What's the oldest firearm in your personal collection, preferably something that you still shoot on occasion?
Also, what's on your older arm still to buy list?

My oldest are, two M1 carbines, one is a NPM made in late '43 and a Saginaw made in early '44. Only a couple months apart in age. They make it to range about twice a year.

I am looking for the type rifle my Great Great Grandfather used during the Civil War, a Sharps rifle. They make modern copies but I'm looking for an original 1860's issue one. They're available but the prices are high and I'm shopping for just the right one. Also in the market for a Colt 1911A1 issued during WWII.

[N54Yankee]

Originally Posted by Run Silent

I have my original issue Colt M1911A1 from my military days. When we converted to the M9 (fucking hated that gun) many folks complained about the swap. For us that weren't standard grunts, we were offered an option to 'buy back' our old 1911's that we could use at the discretion of the command. The buy back was four payroll deductions of $22.25 each. Bit of a steal if you ask me.

Lucky dog, wish I had had been given that opportunity to purchase our 1911's especially at that price, yeah it was a 'bit' of a steal you got there alright, damn!
I have a new reissue Colt Series 70 Govt which is a very faithful repro but still really jonesin for what I carried when I served. They were worn and beat up after decades of hard service but still dependable as quality autos today.

[Grumpy Old Man]

I have my Great Grandfather's Stevens pump shotgun. I shoot it from time to time. The was a Lee Enfield .303 that was kicking around in the family when I was a kid, I believe it saw WWII action but it disappeared a long time ago.

[Shiza]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

Here's something interesting we can talk about. I'm curious to know what you guys have and want. What's the oldest firearm in your personal collection, preferably something that you still shoot on occasion?
Also, what's on your older arm still to buy list?

My oldest are, two M1 carbines, one is a NPM made in late '43 and a Saginaw made in early '44. Only a couple months apart in age. They make it to range about twice a year.

I am looking for the type rifle my Great Great Grandfather used during the Civil War, a Sharps rifle. They make modern copies but I'm looking for an original 1860's issue one. They're available but the prices are high and I'm shopping for just the right one. Also in the market for a Colt 1911A1 issued during WWII.

I have a M1 Carbine that's seen some action in WWII bouncing around my family. Thing still works like a charm.

[RoarinRow]

I have a couple and have a CCW that I keep current. Just don't have time to go out and practice like I should/want.

[N54Yankee]

Originally Posted by Reed

I have a M1 Carbine that's seen some action in WWII bouncing around my family. Thing still works like a charm.

Nice, if you have an original carbine chances are it saw service in WWII and often times Korea also. Most produced American weapon of the war, over 6 million were made. They started making them right before the war and when the war ended so did production. What company made yours?

I bought my Saginaw some years back and took the wife to the range one day to try it. She loved it and I was afraid of losing it to her. I bought her one of her own to keep her mitts off mine. Word to the wise, taking your spouse who likes shooting to the range can get a lot more expensive then just targets and a couple boxes of ammo!

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by N54Yankee

Nice, if you have an original carbine chances are it saw service in WWII and often times Korea also. Most produced American weapon of the war, over 6 million were made. They started making them right before the war and when the war ended so did production. What company made yours?

I bought my Saginaw some years back and took the wife to the range one day to try it. She loved it and I was afraid of losing it to her. I bought her one of her own to keep her mitts off mine. Word to the wise, taking your spouse who likes shooting to the range can get a lot more expensive then just targets and a couple boxes of ammo!

No shit, so far I've bought her a Henry Golden Boy, Ruger MKIII and a Smith & Wesson 686. I'm afraid to let her shoot my Glock.