[Cos270]

Originally Posted by Ximian

Yes, let's have a completely disingenuous talk about the relatively minuscule impact of mining minerals and metals used to make batteries compared to the devastating effects of drilling for oil and mining coal.

Repeating the point again and again - the impact of mining, capturing, refining, transporting, and consumption of fossil fuels is ridiculously higher. A gallon of oil or a pound of coal can only be used once. A battery can be recharged many times, the rare earth metals used in wind turbines as well as materials used on solar panels can be reused for years and eventually recycled.

While I agree, the processes for obtaining the raw materials needed for battery production is "cleaner" than that for petroleum, I think what we're seeing now in terms of scale is a bit disingenuous. The demand for these EV materials is about to go stratospheric, and the supply is going to have to try and meet it. That means more mining and extraction several orders of magnitude greater than what is currently being seen. When scaled to match the current supply of petroleum, will the EV material mining processes still be cleaner? That's a study I haven't seen, yet.

[ZL9M2]

Originally Posted by Ximian

Yes, let's have a completely disingenuous talk about the relatively minuscule impact of mining minerals and metals used to make batteries compared to the devastating effects of drilling for oil and mining coal.

Repeating the point again and again - the impact of mining, capturing, refining, transporting, and consumption of fossil fuels is ridiculously higher. A gallon of oil or a pound of coal can only be used once. A battery can be recharged many times, the rare earth metals used in wind turbines as well as materials used on solar panels can be reused for years and eventually recycled.

Sarcasm?
I hope you're not serious.

[ga9213]

Originally Posted by ZL9M2

Sarcasm?
I hope you're not serious.

Why shouldn't he be serious?

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...source=twitter

cliffs: Model 3's break even vs a Toyota Corolla is only 13,500 miles.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by Cos270

While I agree, the processes for obtaining the raw materials needed for battery production is "cleaner" than that for petroleum, I think what we're seeing now in terms of scale is a bit disingenuous. The demand for these EV materials is about to go stratospheric, and the supply is going to have to try and meet it. That means more mining and extraction several orders of magnitude greater than what is currently being seen. When scaled to match the current supply of petroleum, will the EV material mining processes still be cleaner? That's a study I haven't seen, yet.

The scale will always be smaller for batteries vs petroleum. An EV battery doesn't last a week before the need to replace it like gas in a tank does. Even if the environmental impact of making an EV battery is a hundred times worse (which it isn't) than a tank of gas, it's only a couple of years before the impact of gas used greatly outweighs it.

Let's say we start at 0 cars in the US -

There's 17 million new cars sold and 105 million cars registered (passenger vehicles - cars and light trucks) in 2021 in the US. If all 17 million were only EVs, that's 17 million new batteries. After 10 years, that's 170 million batteries, plus replacements rounded up to 200 million batteries. Each year, the demand is pretty flat at around 17 million batteries.

With 17 million new ICE cars sold per year and each using 10 gallons per week, that's 170 million gallons per week at the end of year 1, 340 million gallons per week at the end of year 2, etc up to 1.7 billion gallons per week at the end of year 10. Clearly, the scale is going to be smaller for EVs.

Widespread use of EVs is also have a beneficial effect on the "grid" where we can use electricity stored in batteries in a neighborhood of cars to make up for power generation deficiencies when everyone is using one, two, or more air conditioning systems in their homes on the increasingly hotter summer days each year. https://global.nissannews.com/en/rel...ad-190920-00-e

Much like the horsepower and top speed wars, EV manufacturers need to come up with an agreement not to keep throwing bigger and bigger batteries into vehicles for more range that is rarely going to be used. A cap on battery weight per vehicle corresponding to say 200 mile range would be one way not to waste those resources.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by ZL9M2

Sarcasm?
I hope you're not serious.

If you disagree with something that was written because it was incorrect, please share details or logic behind those thoughts. Otherwise, comments like this are a waste for everyone because this isn't Facebook.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Michael9218

Buy a vehicle for normal use, not exceptional use.

Wife picked up an Audi e-Tron last August. Loves it. We charge at home. Everyday she has a full charge. When she did a 7 hour road trip recently, we rented an ICE car from the local Avis office. No big deal, but haters gonna hate...

Oh, and it costs $5 to "fill it up" from empty. How much you spending to fill up that ICE SUV?

You should have taken etron. It is a very good road tripping EV. DC fast charging curve is fantastic, holds 150kw almost to 80%.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by Ximian

Yes, a literal ton of waste from nuclear reactors that's contained while fossil fuels produce thousands of tons of waste daily that does not decay with no steps to capture or contain it from spreading everywhere.

Think of how many tanker ships and journeys can be eliminated by reducing our fossil fuel use by 50%.



Again, the cost of fossil fuels is far greater. You can eat many cheeseburgers from the dollar menu for every meal or spend the same amount on a salad which isn't nearly as bad for you.

Like the military, nuclear power plants should be funded by the public to control cost and operate safely (e.g. no push to unsafely increase power production by management to meet quarterly revenue projections).

How much will it cost to charge your EV when the government loses Billions in gas tax and must spend trillions to upgrade the grid from more nuclear power plants, transmission lines and charging stations? There will be a cost transference. EV's may be very cheap to run now but the costs will go up as the uptake goes up. Should be interesting to see if they are cheaper or more expensive 20 years from now.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

How much will it cost to charge your EV when the government loses Billions in gas tax and must spend trillions to upgrade the grid from more nuclear power plants, transmission lines and charging stations? There will be a cost transference. EV's may be very cheap to run now but the costs will go up as the uptake goes up. Should be interesting to see if they are cheaper or more expensive 20 years from now.

Also what happens when US bans raw materials from China used in battery production. Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act(went into effect June 21st) is legislation that bans goods made with forced labor in Xinjiang from entering the U.S. market.

China basically using slave labor in their lithium, nickel and copper mines. They control 80% of raw material refining.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/22/sign...in-report.html

[ZL9M2]

Originally Posted by Ximian

If you disagree with something that was written because it was incorrect, please share details or logic behind those thoughts. Otherwise, comments like this are a waste for everyone because this isn't Facebook.

Absolutely! For example, the Reuters reference above compares a ~$50k Tesla to a ~$20k Corolla. And only compares the ongoing operating parameters of the two, not the total environmental and economic picture.

It's unicorn farts and fairy dust.

[ZL9M2]

Originally Posted by ga9213

Why shouldn't he be serious?

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...source=twitter

cliffs: Model 3's break even vs a Toyota Corolla is only 13,500 miles.

^^

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

How much will it cost to charge your EV when the government loses Billions in gas tax and must spend trillions to upgrade the grid from more nuclear power plants, transmission lines and charging stations? There will be a cost transference. EV's may be very cheap to run now but the costs will go up as the uptake goes up. Should be interesting to see if they are cheaper or more expensive 20 years from now.

This.

Oklahoma and Texas have already been told to prepare for rolling blackouts this summer, again.

[freakystyly]

Originally Posted by ZL9M2

Absolutely! For example, the Reuters reference above compares a ~$50k Tesla to a ~$20k Corolla. And only compares the ongoing operating parameters of the two, not the total environmental and economic picture.

It's unicorn farts and fairy dust.

It's supposed to be environmental impact (heavily based on geographic location)... actual cost will be 2-3x cheaper in favor of the Corolla over its lifespan.

[ga9213]

Originally Posted by ZL9M2

Absolutely! For example, the Reuters reference above compares a ~$50k Tesla to a ~$20k Corolla. And only compares the ongoing operating parameters of the two, not the total environmental and economic picture.

It's unicorn farts and fairy dust.

Show us the comparative data then that you claim supports your assertions.

PS: If you'd read more into the model they used (Argonne National Laboratory model), the battery type and size is included in their model's carbon estimates and factors in extraction/processing.

The model was developed by the Argonne National Laboratory in Chicago and includes thousands of parameters from the type metals in an electric vehicle (EV) battery to the amount of aluminium or plastic in a car.

Argonne's Greenhouse Gases, Regulated Emissions and Energy Use in Technologies (GREET) model is now being used with other tools to help shape policy at the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the California Air Resources Board, the two main regulators of vehicle emissions in the United States.

Jarod Cory Kelly, principal energy systems analyst at Argonne, said making EVs generates more carbon than combustion engine cars, mainly due to the extraction and processing of minerals in EV batteries and production of the power cells.

But estimates as to how big that carbon gap is when a car is first sold and where the "break-even" point comes for EVs during their lifetime can vary widely, depending on the assumptions.

Kelly said the payback period then depends on factors such as the size of the EV's battery, the fuel economy of a gasoline car and how the power used to charge an EV is generated.

[ZL9M2]

Originally Posted by ga9213

Show us the comparative data then that you claim supports your assertions.

I just listed it.... A $20k car vs a $50k car. Apples and oranges; and only comparing data during the operating life of the two. This shit is common sense, don't fight it.

[ga9213]

Originally Posted by ZL9M2

I just listed it.... A $20k car vs a $50k car. Apples and oranges; and only comparing data during the operating life of the two. This shit is common sense, don't fight it.

The chain of this conversation started with this.

Yes. And this discussion should also include the environmental impact of the production of all these batteries, not just the eventual waste.

What does environmental impact of the production of the batteries and their "waste" have to do with their purchase price?

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by ZL9M2

I just listed it.... A $20k car vs a $50k car. Apples and oranges; and only comparing data during the operating life of the two. This shit is common sense, don't fight it.

Even if we charged the tesla for free with rainbow and unicorn energy, a Corolla is only using ~$2047 a year in fuel

Data for this figure: 2022 corolla rated MPG = 31/40 city/highway, 33 combined. Average it to 33 MPG at 15,000 miles a year is 455 gallons. Even at current record gas prices of $4.50, it's $2027 in annual fuel cost. If gas went back to $2.50 we ar elooking at $1127

At $2000 a year in fuel cost, it takes 15 years and 210,000 miles to save that $30K price delta. And this assumes electricity is free. Mine isn't.

[ga9213]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Even if we charged the tesla for free with rainbow and unicorn energy, a Corolla is only using ~$2047 a year in fuel

Data for this figure: 2022 corolla rated MPG = 31/40 city/highway, 33 combined. Average it to 33 MPG at 15,000 miles a year is 455 gallons. Even at current record gas prices of $4.50, it's $2027 in annual fuel cost. If gas went back to $2.50 we ar elooking at $1127

At $2000 a year in fuel cost, it takes 15 years and 210,000 miles to save that $30K price delta. And this assumes electricity is free. Mine isn't.

None of this is relevant to what is being discussed here with respect to the chain of conversation that led to this point.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by ga9213

None of this is relevant to what is being discussed here with respect to the chain of conversation that led to this point.

Sorry to disappoint.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Even if we charged the tesla for free with rainbow and unicorn energy, a Corolla is only using ~$2047 a year in fuel

Data for this figure: 2022 corolla rated MPG = 31/40 city/highway, 33 combined. Average it to 33 MPG at 15,000 miles a year is 455 gallons. Even at current record gas prices of $4.50, it's $2027 in annual fuel cost. If gas went back to $2.50 we ar elooking at $1127

At $2000 a year in fuel cost, it takes 15 years and 210,000 miles to save that $30K price delta. And this assumes electricity is free. Mine isn't.

At some point utilities and government will have to spend Trillions to upgrade the grid, and there will be lost gas taxes as the transition occurs, electricity will become very expensive.

[ga9213]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

At some point utilities and government will have to spend Trillions to upgrade the grid, and there will be lost gas taxes as the transition occurs, electricity will become very expensive.

It's almost like some of the 5.9 trillion in subsidies for oil/gas per year should be repurposed.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

At some point utilities and government will have to spend Trillions to upgrade the grid, and there will be lost gas taxes as the transition occurs, electricity will become very expensive.

And electricity isn't as green as people think it is.

We'll get there, and in my lifetime, but it will be an ugly journey.

[ZL9M2]

Originally Posted by ga9213

None of this is relevant to what is being discussed here with respect to the chain of conversation that led to this point.

Yes, it is particularly relevant. Total environmental and economic impact.... When you start dealing with facts, reality and common sense the argument for EVs breaks down quickly. Step away from the Kool Aid for a second. And if your tax dollars paid for "free" gas stations to be built for every "free" recharging site the argument breaks down further. This isn't that hard....