[HeelToeShift]

Just finished the race. Didn't I say Nor was due for some DNFs??
The main thing that stuck out was how much faster Max was in a slower car again with a 7-9 sec gap that only got messed up by the pit stop and unlike RB. Otherwise Nor doesnt have the pace or skill to match Max even with a faster car. Rus got very very lucky here. Not sure how Max got back to the pits and still finished 5th with that penalty.
Nor was dive-bombing like crazy today and shouldn't he have like 15-20 seconds of penalties for going off track to gain time advantages as well as generally just exceeding track limits? I like hard racing and actually want to see more of it. Max was defending hard and I recall when Rus did this in 2022 (Spanish GP when Max's DRS wasnt working) against Max making multiple moves down the front straight it was seen as good racing. I guess your nationality does mean something in F1... Hopefully Nor will now think twice about trying to get dirty. BTW at turn 3 after both got punctures Nor drove into Max on purpose and that also should have gotten a penalty. He was actively trying to crash him out at that point.
No offense, but this driving style worked for Ham for many years and still does as he has some of the highest contact rates on the grid...why shouldn't Max race hard? Again, I want to see more hard edged racing and not this tattle tale type of racing.

[Marcoose]

Verstappen reminds me of the saying ‘a leopard cannot change his spots.’ Shite personality and sour character are hard to change.

He’s leading the championship. A second place doesn’t hurt him. But no. Play dirty is better. No surprise.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Marcoose

Verstappen reminds me of the saying ‘a leopard cannot change his spots.’ Shite personality and sour character are hard to change.

He’s leading the championship. A second place doesn’t hurt him. But no. Play dirty is better. No surprise.

If race stewards assumed foul play by Verstappen during the Austrian GP, they would/should have DSQ'd him. They didn't: they awarded a 10-second time penalty + 2 penalty points. Same penalty Hamilton got for predominantly causing a collision at the 2021 Silverstone GP: see here (race stewards Document 50 - July 18, 2021).

Schumacher deliberately crashing into Villeneuve at Jerez in 1997 (foul play): DSQ for the whole 1997 WDC season. Villeneuve's take on it: here.

Personally I wouldn't mind stewards handing down DSQ penalties the way they used to do decades ago. Nowadays, the "Let them race" idea is too often abused as a pretext for cutting corners, repeatedly disrespecting track limits, excessive divebombing, masking a deliberate collision and the like.

In recent years, the DSQ penalty only got awarded following breaches of the FIA's technical regulations. In the past, several drivers also got DSQ'd because of on-track antics (outside assistance, reversing in the pitlane, unauthorized use of spare car, tire change outside pitlane, failure to serve a stop & go penalty, deliberate collision, ignoring pitlane red lights, ignoring blue flags, cutting a part of the circuit).

F1 drivers encountering at least 3 DSQ's: Stirling Moss, Niki Lauda, John Watson, Manfred Winkelhock, Stefan Johansson, Stefano Modena, Ayrton Senna, Nigel Mansell, Michael Schumacher, Mika Salo, Juan Pablo Montoya, Takuma Sato. Honorable mention: Al Pease got DSQ'd during the 1969 Canadian GP because of driving too slow. He was 24 laps behind the race leaders and got blackflagged after several on-track incidents, the final straw being an incident causing Jackie Stewart to DNF (already during the 1967 Canadian GP, Pease had finished 43 laps behind the race leaders).

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Let's hope Verstappen and Norris don't turn this into a Prost vs Senna redux.

Well....

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Artemis

If race stewards assumed foul play by Verstappen during the Austrian GP, they would/should have DSQ'd him. They didn't: they awarded a 10-second time penalty + 2 penalty points. Same penalty Hamilton got for predominantly causing a collision at the 2021 Silverstone GP: see here (race stewards Document 50 - July 18, 2021).

Schumacher deliberately crashing into Villeneuve at Jerez in 1997 (foul play): DSQ for the whole 1997 WDC season. Villeneuve's take on it: here.

Personally I wouldn't mind stewards handing down DSQ penalties the way they used to do decades ago. Nowadays, the "Let them race" idea is too often abused as a pretext for cutting corners, repeatedly disrespecting track limits, excessive divebombing, masking a deliberate collision and the like.

In recent years, the DSQ penalty only got awarded following breaches of the FIA's technical regulations. In the past, several drivers also got DSQ'd because of on-track antics (outside assistance, reversing in the pitlane, unauthorized use of spare car, tire change outside pitlane, failure to serve a stop & go penalty, deliberate collision, ignoring pitlane red lights, ignoring blue flags, cutting a part of the circuit).

F1 drivers encountering at least 3 DSQ's: Stirling Moss, Niki Lauda, John Watson, Manfred Winkelhock, Stefan Johansson, Stefano Modena, Ayrton Senna, Nigel Mansell, Michael Schumacher, Mika Salo, Juan Pablo Montoya, Takuma Sato. Honorable mention: Al Pease got DSQ'd during the 1969 Canadian GP because of driving too slow. He was 24 laps behind the race leaders and got blackflagged after several on-track incidents, the final straw being an incident causing Jackie Stewart to DNF (already during the 1967 Canadian GP, Pease had finished 43 laps behind the race leaders).

This is how Max drives, they didn't penalise him in 2021, they don't penalise him in 2024. He gets time penalty if he causes a crash of course, but if nothing happens it seems to be fine by the way of the FIA. Like my wife, the FIA is always right.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by G30M

This is how Max drives, they didn't penalise him in 2021, they don't penalise him in 2024. He gets time penalty if he causes a crash of course, but if nothing happens it seems to be fine by the way of the FIA. Like my wife, the FIA is always right.

Johnny Herbert (UK) was one of the four race stewards of the Austrian GP. Race stewards get appointed to do their jobs. All teams and drivers should be treated equally.

But as commented before, not minding race stewards handing down DSQ penalties if they'd consider foul play involved.

Also: "Competitors are reminded that they have the right to appeal certain decisions of the Stewards".

Originally Posted by G30M

but if nothing happens it seems to be fine by the way of the FIA. Like my wife, the FIA is always right.

"Decisions of the Stewards are taken independently of the FIA and are based solely on the relevant regulations, guidelines and evidence presented."

[Car-Addicted]

So Max was a tool and could have let Lando by and stayed with in 5 seconds and won.

[Mr Pete]

Fantastic race. F1 is getting exciting and the 2nd half will be even more exciting.

Regarding the ‘incident.’ I thought initially it was a racing incident. IMO, I thought Max went slightly left to get a better/faster corner exit, and Lando should have paid attention as he’s the driver behind. Lando was aggressively bombing down on corners, which credit to him for trying so hard to get past Max.

If people are so hard on Max for this, then what about the previous race when Max was ‘rallying’ a bit and was pushed onto grass by Lando at the start? If there was contact then, what’s the narrative being pushed around about Max?

F1 is funny. The haters for whichever side/team/driver that people root for come out in full force when there’s action. Which is fun to see, because it means it’s getting exciting vs a boring race with zero racing action and nothing to talk about. It kind of reminds me of politics haha

[ptack]

Max seemed to lose his cool yesterday. He clearly wasn't comfortable with the car and he screwed up in the collision with Norris. A cooler head would have looked at this and said, Norris might get by me, but he has a 5 second penalty. That means all I have to do is stay within 5 seconds of him by the finish and for most of this race he has not been able to gain any time on me. He might also note that Norris sometimes will make mistakes under pressure so there's a fair chance that he'll screw up somewhere trying too hard to clear those 5 seconds. Getting at least second place is certain in any case.

Red Bull on the other hand should be worried because unless they have some big upgrades coming, the gap they had with their car is gone and Perez is not as good a driver as the 6 from the other 3 main teams. Max will likely not win all the remaining races, but he will win another championship. Red Bull could very well not win the constructors if Perez can't get near a podium.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by ptack

Perez is not as good a driver as the 6 from the other 3 main teams. Max will likely not win all the remaining races, but he will win another championship. Red Bull could very well not win the constructors if Perez can't get near a podium.

As the sites Perez defender, That was a hell of a hole in the side pod of Checo's car and I have seen cars retired with less damage. That said he needs to bring home more points to get Red Bull the constructors championship.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Artemis

If race stewards assumed foul play by Verstappen during the Austrian GP, they would/should have DSQ'd him. They didn't: they awarded a 10-second time penalty + 2 penalty points. Same penalty Hamilton got for predominantly causing a collision at the 2021 Silverstone GP: see here (race stewards Document 50 - July 18, 2021).

Schumacher deliberately crashing into Villeneuve at Jerez in 1997 (foul play): DSQ for the whole 1997 WDC season. Villeneuve's take on it: here.

Personally I wouldn't mind stewards handing down DSQ penalties the way they used to do decades ago. Nowadays, the "Let them race" idea is too often abused as a pretext for cutting corners, repeatedly disrespecting track limits, excessive divebombing, masking a deliberate collision and the like.

In recent years, the DSQ penalty only got awarded following breaches of the FIA's technical regulations. In the past, several drivers also got DSQ'd because of on-track antics (outside assistance, reversing in the pitlane, unauthorized use of spare car, tire change outside pitlane, failure to serve a stop & go penalty, deliberate collision, ignoring pitlane red lights, ignoring blue flags, cutting a part of the circuit).

F1 drivers encountering at least 3 DSQ's: Stirling Moss, Niki Lauda, John Watson, Manfred Winkelhock, Stefan Johansson, Stefano Modena, Ayrton Senna, Nigel Mansell, Michael Schumacher, Mika Salo, Juan Pablo Montoya, Takuma Sato. Honorable mention: Al Pease got DSQ'd during the 1969 Canadian GP because of driving too slow. He was 24 laps behind the race leaders and got blackflagged after several on-track incidents, the final straw being an incident causing Jackie Stewart to DNF (already during the 1967 Canadian GP, Pease had finished 43 laps behind the race leaders).

I want to want these guys race, not be little tattle tales like Nor and Pia seemed to be in this race over and over again. I like that Max brings an old school racers mentality to the track. The only other one I think in this realm is Alo who is able to outwit drivers like Max does.

I don't think Max did anything wrong. He had every right to the space to the left, and he left FAR more room yesterday than Nor did at the start of the Spanish GP which was IMO a dirty move. What Max did was just hard nosed and I hope it continues.

I also don't know why they were so delayed in giving Nor a 5 sec penalty. They should have said, clear cut, you've been over 4 or 5 times, it's 5 seconds and the next is 10 more seconds, then Max would have likely allowed him to pass knowing Nor didnt have his pace and Max would have DRS for 3 zones and probably pass on the next lap or two but would otherwise be able to stay within 5 seconds for the victory.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by ptack

Max seemed to lose his cool yesterday. He clearly wasn't comfortable with the car and he screwed up in the collision with Norris. A cooler head would have looked at this and said, Norris might get by me, but he has a 5 second penalty. That means all I have to do is stay within 5 seconds of him by the finish and for most of this race he has not been able to gain any time on me. He might also note that Norris sometimes will make mistakes under pressure so there's a fair chance that he'll screw up somewhere trying too hard to clear those 5 seconds. Getting at least second place is certain in any case.

Red Bull on the other hand should be worried because unless they have some big upgrades coming, the gap they had with their car is gone and Perez is not as good a driver as the 6 from the other 3 main teams. Max will likely not win all the remaining races, but he will win another championship. Red Bull could very well not win the constructors if Perez can't get near a podium.

I am not sure I'd say the advantage is gone, but RB's setup this weekend was pretty on point meaning whatever they've done on the sim to address the issues is working - and they do have a big upgrade package for Silverstone coming. Max had a 7-9 second gap that Nor could not make an impression on. It was only a long pit stop, which is uncanny for RB, that made the race close. From a driving perspective, Max had Nor number all weekend long.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Nor car, because he ruined a lot of the car and parts and what the fallout for them will be because of it. He might have been best to park the car rather than going back to the pits.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

No Dude . My screen shot is absolutely 'NOT out of context !
IMHO . Dude you didn't watched the race ...
Today I watched this race 3 times . And the incident , I think 7 times ...

MAX pulled to the right side of the track , because backmarkers like OCON in his Alpine (car number 31) came by at 280 km/h at that moment !
None the less Lando made the wrong decision to overtake MAX on the grass !
BTW : I really like Lando and Charlie ...

But Lando's move was insane (!)

Giving priority to an already lapped car and pushing the driver who is actually trying to earn places, off of the track? Bad excuse. Your latest screen shot is from AFTER Lando was driven off track, backed off, returned to track, and went to pass. The Alpine was nowhere in sight when Lando went to pass on the right.

Lando didn't over take off track... He was pushed off track and immediately got back on track once he slowed down enough, and got back behind Max, passing on track on the next corner.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by ptack

Max seemed to lose his cool yesterday. He clearly wasn't comfortable with the car and he screwed up in the collision with Norris. A cooler head would have looked at this and said, Norris might get by me, but he has a 5 second penalty.

I don't think stewards decision had been made about track limits before the final contact happened.

Originally Posted by ptack

Red Bull on the other hand should be worried because unless they have some big upgrades coming, the gap they had with their car is gone...

I actually thought that too, especially after the sprint race. Max didn't exactly pull away from Lando in Sprint race. But Sunday Max was cruising to a victory before he lost his 7sec lead in the pits.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by dfox

Giving priority to an already lapped car and pushing the driver who is actually trying to earn places, off of the track? Bad excuse. Your latest screen shot is from AFTER Lando was driven off track, backed off, returned to track, and went to pass. The Alpine was nowhere in sight when Lando went to pass on the right.

Lando didn't over take off track... He was pushed off track and immediately got back on track once he slowed down enough, and got back behind Max, passing on track on the next corner.

Watched that back several times. It just looks like Max getting off racing line with a fully debeaded tire. Both Max and Lando with wounded cars should be giving priority to cars lapping at full speed. Alpine finished in the points. Alpine coming from behind at full speed, Max immediately moves over out of the way after coming back on track from the left. In hindsight Lando should have slowed more to salvage points for McLaren. They can easily catch Ferrari in points, maybe RB with the way Perez is performing.

Your posts in last weeks race thread complaining about Lando pushing Max into grass at the start seem to be missing. Of which I didn't think anything of either.

You both clearly have bias, so you will never agree on anything relating to Max.

[MontyB1]

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by M3WC

Watched that back several times. It just looks like Max getting off racing line with a fully debeaded tire. Alpine coming from behind at full speed, Max immediately moves over out of the way after coming back on track from the left. He continued to stay out of other drivers racing line, until he reached pit entry.

Your posts in last weeks race thread complaining about Lando pushing Max into grass at the start seem to be missing. Of which I didn't think anything of either.

I agree. Max had every right to have his car pointed left at turn 3 to maximize the corner entry and exit - this is the same as almost every other driver does and many notable cases of this. If you are mad at how Max handled this, you should be denouncing Nor's multiple swipes at Max during the start fo the Spanish GP which was actually dirty, and caused Max to put cold tires into the grass which if he wasnt as good a driver as he is, would have caused a spin and multiple car collision.

I think Max moving over was the right thing as to not get hit by a car doing 280+ kph going towards turn 4 no matter what their position was in the race at the time. Nor totally destroyed his car and probably a lot of good parts that will hamper them going into the next race(s). He should have just parked the car. Max seemed to get back to the pits without much damage and his pace after the pit was insane.

It makes you wonder, why did they wait until after the race to announce the Nor 5 sec penalty? If they had been quicker on a black and white call, Max lets Nor by, only to either finish within 5 sec or pass him with the pace advantage he had.

[Killed by Death]

Yuki Tsunoda gets €40,000 fine from FIA for tantrum on team radio:
Yuki has been heavily fined by the FIA for swearing on the team radio of Visa Cash App RB.
The Japanese driver expressed his frustration with other Formula 1 drivers whom he felt were obstructing his path and not being penalized for it.

[Killed by Death]

Norris onboard of crash.

[Killed by Death]

Max onboard of crash

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Mr Pete

Regarding the ‘incident.’ I thought initially it was a racing incident. IMO, I thought Max went slightly left to get a better/faster corner exit, and Lando should have paid attention as he’s the driver behind. Lando was aggressively bombing down on corners, which credit to him for trying so hard to get past Max.

As Verstappen very likely expected Norris to divebomb on the right - again -, he made a very brief 'dummy move' to the right to rattle Norris IMO, making Norris believe for a split second that he could easily overtake the Red Bull around the not-defended outside of the turn while Verstappen supposedly cut the apex sharply. Norris took the bait and quickly ran out of space inside the turn: Verstappen didn't cut the apex: Norris either had to back off by braking or collide in the turn. The cars collided.

'Dummy move' at 00:04 - also keep an eye on the race line followed by the car ahead of Verstappen, close to the curbs on the left, to take the turn:

Peter Windsor's take on the Verstappen-Norris collision: he doesn't blame Verstappen:

Originally Posted by Marcoose

Verstappen reminds me of the saying ‘a leopard cannot change his spots.’ Shite personality and sour character are hard to change.

See the Peter Windsor video above from 15:39 onwards: "I don't think he threw his toys out of the pram. He drove like a racing driver. (...) Whatever that comment was, whoever read that, you know, go and watch some water polo or something else, forget about Formula 1, I think."

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Johnny Herbert (UK) was one of the four race stewards of the Austrian GP. Race stewards get appointed to do their jobs. All teams and drivers should be treated equally.

But as commented before, not minding race stewards handing down DSQ penalties if they'd consider foul play involved.

Attachment 3491871

well Max has been moving under braking since the day he was born, he doesn't get penalised normally. wasn't penalised all race moving around in front of Norris. only penalised because of the crash.

that's what I'm saying.