[David70]

For all the people thinking Shell gasoline makes their car run better on one tank, they get better mpg on a tank, or whatever, I can't even see a way for this to be possible. Base gasoline is the same as Walmart, Shell might have more detergents in it but past that I think it is in your head.

Different or more detergents won't suddenly raise performance and/or mpg and even if it did it wouldn't suddenly drop when you went back to some other gas.

[ZL9M2]

BMW will change it's recomendation as soon as the next fuel company writes them a bigger check. Just like their oil and oil change recomendations. I wouldn't get too caught up in it.

[SnowCover]

Originally Posted by David70

For all the people thinking Shell gasoline makes their car run better on one tank, they get better mpg on a tank, or whatever, I can't even see a way for this to be possible. Base gasoline is the same as Walmart, Shell might have more detergents in it but past that I think it is in your head.

Different or more detergents won't suddenly raise performance and/or mpg and even if it did it wouldn't suddenly drop when you went back to some other gas.

I sometimes get premium gas at the local Sam's Club because it's the cheapest.($3.149 last week) For some weird reason, there are always a lot of Mercedes and Audi waiting in line. I figured that if it was good enough for them, it was probably good enough for my BMWs?

Back when BP was still Top Tier, my local BP station was forcibly closed for over a month by the state's department of weights and measures(or something like that) due to bad pumps and contaminated underground gas storage tank. Needless to say, I never went back again.

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by David70

For all the people thinking Shell gasoline makes their car run better on one tank, they get better mpg on a tank, or whatever, I can't even see a way for this to be possible. Base gasoline is the same as Walmart, Shell might have more detergents in it but past that I think it is in your head.

Different or more detergents won't suddenly raise performance and/or mpg and even if it did it wouldn't suddenly drop when you went back to some other gas.

One tank will not clean a valve and suddenly improve deposits but valve cleaning (with detergents) WILL improve performance. I cleaned by wife's R56 mini valves and it felt like it just got tuned! Detergents will keep/increase performance over time. If you have ever had bad fuel and/or live with riding on the limit of a knock sensor in a rotary engine, it happens. Experience.

Also injector cleaning (in the fuel) WILL increase performance.

[David70]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

One tank will not clean a valve and suddenly improve deposits but valve cleaning (with detergents) WILL improve performance. I cleaned by wife's R56 mini valves and it felt like it just got tuned! Detergents will keep/increase performance over time. If you have ever had bad fuel and/or live with riding on the limit of a knock sensor in a rotary engine, it happens. Experience.

Also injector cleaning (in the fuel) WILL increase performance.

All gas has detergents in it, I've never seen someone even attempt to prove one is better than another, just a lot of marketing and internet talk. If you ever come up with proof that a brand of fuel is better than another it might be believable.

In addition, if you have a direct injection engine without port injection (like your car), the ability for the gas to clean the valves is close to non existent.

[KevinC]

Originally Posted by David70

All gas has detergents in it, I've never seen someone even attempt to prove one is better than another, just a lot of marketing and internet talk. If you ever come up with proof that a brand of fuel is better than another it might be believable.

https://newsroom.aaa.com/2016/07/aaa...created-equal/

[David70]

Originally Posted by KevinC

https://newsroom.aaa.com/2016/07/aaa...created-equal/

So Shell isn't any better than Costco as they are both "Top Tier" and Shell's definitely not needed? Top Tier requires the brand to pay the company to be on the list and nobody says Top Tier has more detergents than some other brand, just that they meet Top Tier requirements. The tested "Top Tier" and "non Top Tier" - who knows which ones and they won't name the brands so we have no idea which one is better?

They tested some non Top Tier and some Top Tier and decided all Top Tier is better than the rest?

How did you clean your Mini's valves? Is it a direct injection car?

Top Tier brands, only thing we know is they paid Top Tier and they meet Top Tier requirements, some other brand not on the list may also meet Top Tier requirements. Based on the list you believe Puma Guatemala has better fuel than your local BP station?

44 Variety Canada
76 USA
Agua Caliente Fuel USA
Aloha USA
Ambrose Variety Canada
ARCO USA
ARCO Mexico
Beacon USA
Bear Creek Express Canada
Bear Creek Gas Bar Canada
Belmont Car Wash USA
Breakaway Canada
Cenex USA
Chevron Canada
Chevron USA
Chevron Mexico
CITGO USA
Co-op Canada
Conoco USA
Costco Wholesale USA
Costco Wholesale Canada
Costco Wholesale Puerto Rico
Costco Wholesale Mexico
Costco Wholesale Japan
CountryMark USA
Dash In USA
Diamond Shamrock USA
Dutch Gas & Variety Canada
Eagle Feather Trading Post USA
EcoMaxx Puerto Rico
Energy Mexico
Express Mart - Wisconsin USA
Exxon USA
Fast Fuel USA
Feather Falls Mini Mart USA
G Premium Mexico
G Super Mexico
G500 Mexico
Gold Medal Gasoline USA
Gulf Puerto Rico
Harmons Fuel Stop USA
Hele USA
HFN - Hawaii Fueling Network USA
Inver Canada
J&E Wendy USA
Kirkland Signature Gasoline USA
Kirkland Signature Gasoline Canada
Kirkland Signature Gasoline Puerto Rico
Kirkland Signature Gasoline Mexico
Kirkland Signature Gasoline Japan
Life's A Beach Gas & Variety Canada
Little Arrows Canada
Marathon USA
Marathon Mexico
Marathon Puerto Rico
Mega Saver USA
Meijer USA
Meijer Express USA
Mobil USA
Mobil Puerto Rico
Mohawk Fuels Canada
Morongo Travel Center USA
Mountain Sky Travel Center USA
Mr Gas Canada
Ohana Fuels USA
Pahvant Travel Plaza USA
Pechanga Gas Station USA
Phillips 66 USA
Phillips 66 Puerto Rico
Primax Colombia
Primax Peru
PUMA Guatemala
PUMA El Salvador
PUMA Honduras
PUMA Panama
PUMA Puerto Rico
QT USA
QuikTrip USA
Ranger USA
Ranger Fuel USA
Ranger Mustang USA
Ranger Stallion USA
Ranger Thoroughbred USA
Reeders USA
Rendichicas Plus Mexico
Road Ranger USA
Roote's Canada
Rutter's USA
Shamrock USA
Shelee's Travel Center USA
Shell USA
Shell Canada
Shell Puerto Rico
Shell Nitrogen Enriched USA
Shell Nitrogen Enriched Canada
Shell Nitrogen Enriched Puerto Rico
Shell V-Power USA
Shell V-Power Canada
Shell V-Power Puerto Rico
Shell V-Power NiTRO+

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by David70

So Shell isn't any better than Costco as they are both "Top Tier" and Shell's definitely not needed? Top Tier requires the brand to pay the company to be on the list and nobody says Top Tier has more detergents than some other brand, just that they meet Top Tier requirements. The tested "Top Tier" and "non Top Tier" - who knows which ones and they won't name the brands so we have no idea which one is better?

They tested some non Top Tier and some Top Tier and decided all Top Tier is better than the rest?

How did you clean your Mini's valves? Is it a direct injection car?

Top Tier brands, only thing we know is they paid Top Tier and they meet Top Tier requirements, some other brand not on the list may also meet Top Tier requirements. Based on the list you believe Puma Guatemala has better fuel than your local BP station?

44 Variety Canada
76 USA
Agua Caliente Fuel USA
Aloha USA
Ambrose Variety Canada
ARCO USA
ARCO Mexico
Beacon USA
Bear Creek Express Canada
Bear Creek Gas Bar Canada
Belmont Car Wash USA
Breakaway Canada
Cenex USA
Chevron Canada
Chevron USA
Chevron Mexico
CITGO USA
Co-op Canada
Conoco USA
Costco Wholesale USA
Costco Wholesale Canada
Costco Wholesale Puerto Rico
Costco Wholesale Mexico
Costco Wholesale Japan
CountryMark USA
Dash In USA
Diamond Shamrock USA
Dutch Gas & Variety Canada
Eagle Feather Trading Post USA
EcoMaxx Puerto Rico
Energy Mexico
Express Mart - Wisconsin USA
Exxon USA
Fast Fuel USA
Feather Falls Mini Mart USA
G Premium Mexico
G Super Mexico
G500 Mexico
Gold Medal Gasoline USA
Gulf Puerto Rico
Harmons Fuel Stop USA
Hele USA
HFN - [...]

TT gas has been tested and compared to non-TT gas. There's a difference. Consumer Reports is one I can think of

[David70]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

TT gas has been tested and compared to non-TT gas. There's a difference. Consumer Reports is one I can think of

There isn't a "non-TT", it's every brand that isn't TT so which ones were tested? I shouldn't buy BP anymore as they are no longer on the list?

What Consumer Reports test are you talking about?

I am daily driving a 2013, some gas has been TT, some hasn't, I have no problems, so I should have only used TT? I am now buying a decent amount of BP (it's on the convenient side of the road) and based on what I read here this is a mistake.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by David70

There isn't a "non-TT", it's every brand that isn't TT so which ones were tested? I shouldn't buy BP anymore as they are no longer on the list?

What Consumer Reports test are you talking about?

I am daily driving a 2013, some gas has been TT, some hasn't, I have no problems, so I should have only used TT? I am now buying a decent amount of BP (it's on the convenient side of the road) and based on what I read here this is a mistake.

As for the Consumer Reports test you can Google it. TT gas contains a higher level of detergents compared to the federal minimum.

Running TT and gas which isn't TT is not going to kill your engine. It's not something to worry about IMO.

However, because I don't mind increasing your anxiety level.

[David70]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

As for the Consumer Reports test you can Google it. TT gas contains a higher level of detergents compared to the federal minimum.

Running TT and gas which isn't TT is not going to kill your engine. It's not something to worry about IMO.

However, because I don't mind increasing your anxiety level.

Consumer Reports I saw just goes back to the 8 year old AAA test.

TT gas has a higher level of detergents than federal minimums- agree.

Why did you post the video? Did you watch the whole thing? Towards the end you aren't surprised it says the same thing I have been saying?

The idea of you believing you saying I need a certain type of gas is increasing my anxiety level is a joke (I hope).

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by David70

Consumer Reports I saw just goes back to the 8 year old AAA test.

TT gas has a higher level of detergents than federal minimums- agree.

Why did you post the video? Did you watch the whole thing? Towards the end you aren't surprised it says the same thing I have been saying?

The idea of you believing you saying I need a certain type of gas is increasing my anxiety level is a joke (I hope).

LOL. The difference in wear is irrelevant.

[David70]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

LOL. The difference in wear is irrelevant.

Agree, it's a stretch to talk about engine wear problems are related to the brand of gas and no one is trying to prove the best gas brand for this either.

I feel the same about the endless debates about the very best synthetic oil brand. I keep waiting to hear from the people that regularly changed their oil with high quality full synthetic that have some problem that could possibly have been prevented by using something else.

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by David70

For the " ....residents here obviously are not that concerned about gasoline prices" - depends on what it costs, how far away the station is, and how long I have to wait.

Save 10 cents a gallon, roughly need 12 gallons and I am not waiting 15 minutes to save $1.20. Amazes me to see really expensive cars (many 5 times what my car is worth) lined up for a 25 minute wait at Costco, I don't have the patience for it and would rather save money somewhere else.

Also surprised me when I lived on the TN / GA border and people would drive 5 miles to get cheaper gas, even if their time was worth nothing, they saved a tiny amount of money after the gas used to get there.

I don't know anything about Costco. I've never shopped at a Costco store never bought gas at a Costco station.

I imagine if a station is busy yeah, some drivers may choose the less busy station and pay the higher price to avoid any wait.

But I haven't had to wait for a pump to become available since the gasoline shortages decades ago.

In the cases I've observed of drivers choosing to fill up at the higher priced station over filling up at the lower priced station the lower priced station pumps were not all busy. Pumps were available.

And in the cases I've observed the price difference was not just 10 or 20 cents a gallon but closer to $1 a gallon.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by David70

So Shell isn't any better than Costco as they are both "Top Tier" and Shell's definitely not needed? Top Tier requires the brand to pay the company to be on the list and nobody says Top Tier has more detergents than some other brand, just that they meet Top Tier requirements. The tested "Top Tier" and "non Top Tier" - who knows which ones and they won't name the brands so we have no idea which one is better?

They tested some non Top Tier and some Top Tier and decided all Top Tier is better than the rest?

How did you clean your Mini's valves? Is it a direct injection car?

Top Tier brands, only thing we know is they paid Top Tier and they meet Top Tier requirements, some other brand not on the list may also meet Top Tier requirements. Based on the list you believe Puma Guatemala has better fuel than your local BP station?

44 Variety Canada
76 USA
Agua Caliente Fuel USA
Aloha USA
Ambrose Variety Canada
ARCO USA
ARCO Mexico
Beacon USA
Bear Creek Express Canada
Bear Creek Gas Bar Canada
Belmont Car Wash USA
Breakaway Canada
Cenex USA
Chevron Canada
Chevron USA
Chevron Mexico
CITGO USA
Co-op Canada
Conoco USA
Costco Wholesale USA
Costco Wholesale Canada
Costco Wholesale Puerto Rico
Costco Wholesale Mexico
Costco Wholesale Japan
CountryMark USA
Dash In USA
Diamond Shamrock USA
Dutch Gas & Variety Canada
Eagle Feather Trading Post USA
EcoMaxx Puerto Rico
Energy Mexico
Express Mart - Wisconsin USA
Exxon USA
Fast Fuel USA
Feather Falls Mini Mart USA
G Premium Mexico
G Super Mexico
G500 Mexico
Gold Medal Gasoline USA
Gulf Puerto Rico
Harmons Fuel Stop USA
Hele USA
HFN - Hawaii Fueling Network USA
Inver Canada
J&E Wendy USA
Kirkland Signature Gasoline USA
Kirkland Signature Gasoline Canada
Kirkland Signature Gasoline Puerto Rico
Kirkland Signature Gasoline Mexico
Kirkland Signature Gasoline Japan
Life's A Beach Gas & Variety Canada
Little Arrows Canada
Marathon USA
Marathon Mexico
Marathon Puerto Rico
Mega Saver USA
Meijer USA
Meijer Express USA
Mobil USA
Mobil Puerto Rico
Mohawk Fuels Canada
Morongo Travel Center USA
Mountain Sky Travel Center USA
Mr Gas Canada
Ohana Fuels USA
Pahvant Travel Plaza USA
Pechanga Gas Station USA
Phillips 66 USA
Phillips 66 Puerto Rico
Primax Colombia
Primax Peru
PUMA Guatemala
PUMA El Salvador
PUMA Honduras
PUMA Panama
PUMA Puerto Rico
QT USA
QuikTrip USA
Ranger USA
Ranger Fuel USA
Ranger Mustang USA
Ranger Stallion USA
Ranger Thoroughbred USA
Reeders USA
Rendichicas Plus Mexico
Road Ranger USA
Roote's Canada
Rutter's USA
Shamrock USA
Shelee's Travel Center USA
Shell USA
Shell Canada
Shell Puerto Rico
Shell Nitrogen Enriched USA
Shell Nitrogen Enriched Canada
Shell Nitrogen Enriched Puerto Rico
Shell V-Power USA
Shell V-Power Canada
Shell V-Power Puerto Rico
Shell V-Power NiTRO+

I wonder whether Sam’s Club gas is different from Walmart’s Kirkland gas that is Top Tier?

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by David70

For all the people thinking Shell gasoline makes their car run better on one tank, they get better mpg on a tank, or whatever, I can't even see a way for this to be possible. Base gasoline is the same as Walmart, Shell might have more detergents in it but past that I think it is in your head.

Different or more detergents won't suddenly raise performance and/or mpg and even if it did it wouldn't suddenly drop when you went back to some other gas.

The fuel comparison I mentioned did find Shell gasoline delivered more power/torque. Not lots more but more. Did not get the impression it was due to better detergent action.

In fact my experience with Shell V-Power is its detergent capabilities is lacking at least compared to one other gasoline.

My experience after running Shell V-Power for some time (approx. 1 year) when the local Shell station raised its prices I was blessed with a nearby Chevron station which lowered its prices so I switched from Shell to Chevron. 'course, Chevron has Techron in it.

With one car with a naturally aspirated engine before the 1st tank of Chevron was gone the engine was running better.

Now this engine was fitted with narrow band O2 sensors, and had some big miles on it. Over 200K miles. The engine didn't manifest any signs the big miles were a problem. Oil consumption was nil. But it had covered over 200K miles.

My other car with a twin turbo engine fitted with wide band O2 sensors -- more precise fueling than provided by the narrow band sensors -- and with less than 100K miles on the engine didn't react one way or the other to the Chevron gasoline.

[Bill 310]

I am certain that there is a positive corelation between the quality of gasoline and the commentary provided by female passengers returning from said station's restroom

[TallGibbs]

Is the top tier listing for Sunoco "out of date"? Seems like I'm finding conflicting information and I'm curious because I have 2 stations within 5 miles of my house that sell Sunoco (and their 94 octane fuel). Sunoco's own website says the fuel is "top tier", but there is LOTS of search results that say Sunoco dropped off during Covid, but maybe they are back certified now?

https://www.sunoco.com/94-octane

This "station-finder" website does NOT show Sunoco stations in my area being top-tier approved: https://stationfinder.toptiergas.com/

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by David70

All gas has detergents in it, I've never seen someone even attempt to prove one is better than another, just a lot of marketing and internet talk. If you ever come up with proof that a brand of fuel is better than another it might be believable.

In addition, if you have a direct injection engine without port injection (like your car), the ability for the gas to clean the valves is close to non existent.

Your preaching to the choir. I obviously know that some/all fuel contain some detergents and the difference between DI and PI engines. Your inability to talk straight between which is better vs it's all the same because its all from the same pipe talk vs TT has caused me to disregard your posts from here on out.

So this is for everyone else:
All gasoline sold in the U.S. meets minimum requirements set by the government. The differences between brands come in the additives and detergents added to the blend to help extend the life of the engine.

Some fuel companies — working with major automakers that include Audi, BMW, Fiat-Chrysler, Ford, General Motors, Honda, Mercedes-Benz, Stellantis, Toyota and Volkswagen — have taken it a step further, setting a higher standard that has become known as Top Tier fuels. Brands that qualify as Top Tier contain additional detergents beyond the minimum requirements, and help prevent carbon buildup in car engines.

Over time, the furnace that is the modern engine will accumulate carbon residue, a byproduct of the motor's combustion process that happens thousands of times per minute. Like barnacles on a boat, carbon deposits can build up on vital engine parts, like valves, pistons and the combustion chamber. As the carbon accrues, engines will run rougher and less efficiently (ie, less power or decreased fuel economy) regardless of being direct injection or not.

As far as power, once you get the right fuel for the application one will make more power than the other. If you put 89 in a turbo or high compression engine it will have less power. I do find that Sunoco 94 a bit spicier than others.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/fuel-truth/
It's all the same because...US government standards. Something that may go a way with Mandate for Leadership 2025...

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

I don't know anything about Costco. I've never shopped at a Costco store never bought gas at a Costco station.

I imagine if a station is busy yeah, some drivers may choose the less busy station and pay the higher price to avoid any wait.

But I haven't had to wait for a pump to become available since the gasoline shortages decades ago.

In the cases I've observed of drivers choosing to fill up at the higher priced station over filling up at the lower priced station the lower priced station pumps were not all busy. Pumps were available.

And in the cases I've observed the price difference was not just 10 or 20 cents a gallon but closer to $1 a gallon.

There's a Shell station near me and the difference between reg and premium is around $1. It's insane.

Costco only for me.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

The fuel comparison I mentioned did find Shell gasoline delivered more power/torque. Not lots more but more. Did not get the impression it was due to better detergent action.

In fact my experience with Shell V-Power is its detergent capabilities is lacking at least compared to one other gasoline.

My experience after running Shell V-Power for some time (approx. 1 year) when the local Shell station raised its prices I was blessed with a nearby Chevron station which lowered its prices so I switched from Shell to Chevron. 'course, Chevron has Techron in it.

With one car with a naturally aspirated engine before the 1st tank of Chevron was gone the engine was running better.

Now this engine was fitted with narrow band O2 sensors, and had some big miles on it. Over 200K miles. The engine didn't manifest any signs the big miles were a problem. Oil consumption was nil. But it had covered over 200K miles.

My other car with a twin turbo engine fitted with wide band O2 sensors — more precise fueling than provided by the narrow band sensors — and with less than 100K miles on the engine didn't react one way or the other to the Chevron gasoline.

There was talk years ago that NITRO contained a UCL which reduced enough friction to show up as tiny gain in TQ/HP.

[Elderado82]

All I know is that Shell gas here in NE is trash. I was regularly putting Shell in my M340i until it started having rough cold starts and wouldn't remote start anymore. I figured I'd try another gas to see if maybe I got a bad fill, so I went to Phillips 66, and the rough cold starts stopped. After a couple more tanks of Phillips, everything was good.

Being a BMW, I thought maybe I should go back to Shell, and well, what do you know, the car started running poorly again. Funny thing is, I even went to a different Shell station. So I went back to Phillips and had no problems.

About six months have passed, and now just about every Shell station here is turning into AMCO. Hmmm... has Shell turned into trash gas? This is just my experience here in NE with Shell. Has anyone else run into this?

Also, before you go on about spark plugs, fuel systems, and blah blah blah... I've already thought of those things, checked for cylinder issues and fuel system issues, and everything runs fine when not using Shell.