[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by DarkstarZero

This is coming from someone who bought a F87 M2 CS Manual, along with an OG M2, and nearly every M3 going back to 95...

I've finally come to the conclusion that the last good manual BMW was the e9x M3 with the NA V8. That's because the manuals are geared for fuel efficiency and that doesn't work with turbo engines. The lag and time it takes to get into boost seriously reduces the fun.

I've had the last three M3/4 manual coupes and the E92 had no torque down low and you had to rev it to extract performance, which can be fun but is more work. I believe the manual/engine combo in my '15 F82 is great with no lag and pulls from 2,000 revs. This will be my DD, not a track toy so the lack of low end concerns me a little.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Reesnat

Thanks, yeah that makes sense and I can see where you are coming from.

But if I may, as a reviewer who is talking to all types of people maybe it’s better to provide a more balanced view?

Let me share my personal view and why I’m engadging in conversation- I owned the M2 Comp for 3 years and in many instances I always found myself fighting the rear, both on road and even more on track. Constantly having to worry when the rear will break loose.

The thing you mentioned as a Pro about your own OG M2 where it gets squirlly in a straight line, is one of the things that put me off about the M2C (thought it was fun at times).

I’m looking for a car next that will be still lively and fun but it needs to be a lot more predictable, and stable, which this seems to do. It seems like it’s taken a step closer to the more ‘sorted’ Porsches.

So, I’m feeling like you wanting the tail happy rowdy of a car is clouding the more ‘sorted’ nature of the new G87?

None of this should be a surprise to be honest. We saw this with F8x vs G8x already.

I own an F87C and personally, I prefer the rowdy nature of that platform especially because mine is a street car. When you start having "too much" of this sorted nature, I think it gets boring for a street car for me personally. I've had the privilege to drive a Porsche GT4 before, and on the street, you feel like you're driving it at 20% of it's capability. On the other hand, if it's wet outside, the F87C will squirm around and make me smile.

Secondly, I'm not sure why anyone is surprised at the comments regarding the S58. While I haven't personally had the chance to drive one paired with a 6MT, it's very obvious that compared to the N55T or S55, it doesn't have the low down punch, however, it is stronger at redline.

I've watched and read a few reviews and there's been absolutely nothing surprising about any of them.

P.S. I have 0 reason to believe the G87 will not smoke the F87 on the track, no different than the G8x being putting some crazy numbers.

[02M3ForMe]

BMW, please don’t listen too closely to some of this feedback and make the mistake of making this car any less capable in the corners.

More speed, more chassis stability, higher G around turns = good. The old car is there for those who want worse hardware.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by E63M6_G42M240i

But what I think the reviewers fail to mention is that the S85 is a better platform to make much more power with. You don’t think the g87 with 700 hp will be fun and less planted? That’s my point ok stock f87 is fun heck a Miata is fun but both with likely far less potential.

God I wish it had S85

[DarkstarZero]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

I've had the last three M3/4 manual coupes and the E92 had no torque down low and you had to rev it to extract performance, which can be fun but is more work. I believe the manual/engine combo in my '15 F82 is great with no lag and pulls from 2,000 revs. This will be my DD, not a track toy so the lack of low end concerns me a little.

"down low" is relative with an 8,600 RPM red line.

My F87 M2 CS Manual has power down low, I'd say more like 2500 RPM, but there's a full second between foot down and car going. Driving it back to back with my NA BMWs makes it very noticeable. Not that it isn't a fun car, I just feel like manuals were better in the NA cars.

My opinion is changing, I used to be the guy saying "save the manuals" but now I'm kinda like, I'll trade manuals to get the DCT back.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Throttle House Thomas

I had dinner with the chief chassis engineer twice and picked his brain as much as I could. However other outlets (because of differing levels of production value) had more time during the day to pick their brains. We had to get out there and film. HOWEVER, regardless of what any engineer says, We trust what we feel when driving a car. So YES, I am saying that there is no grunt south of 3.5k in the manual. Watch our video at this time stamp, this is second gear.

You can hear the foot click down full on the throttle. Pretty much nothing happens for several seconds. Yes I am aware that the engine is outside of the boost threshold, but with that gearset, the car felt neutered at low revs in any gear pretty much, whereas other cars, (competitors or old M2s), do not. What this means in reality, is that on a tight twisty road, you actually have to downshift to first gear FREQUENTLY, if you want to really play around with the car. It didn't feel right.

It's no surprise the car felt that way considering there is so much de-contenting with the G87 coming from the F87 gen. Floating rear brakes, absence of carbon front strut, cast wheels, no mechanical handbrake, no M-DCT, the list goes on.
Frankly, I would not even consider this car if it weren't for the MT option. Engine is good, but the fact that they limited to 7200 rpm because they wanted to match the ZF8 that cannot rev higher due to oil cavitation, tells you how much has changed at the M division. Bean counters obviously saw the opportunity there and charged 600K for the 3.0 CSL with a simple DME tune, raising to 7500 rpm. There was no substantial engine development to justify 450K more vs. the previous M4 GTS which at least came with the water injection system.
The end product really shows their target market.

[F87EVO]

I think it would make more sense to stop comparing the first with the second generation. Each car should have its own character. They cant just make the same car all over again and the idea is still there ! I think we should be glad this car exists !

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by zero21

Laggy power problem was reported by one journalist (duo). Meanwhile video footage of folks running around in a manual transmission show zero power problems.

Less HP? Really, 20hp? The M3 will weigh 100-150lbs more than my M2 (likely). Negligible at best.

Less interior volume? We wanted a smaller car. It's not my daily.

Yes, that is a bragging right. We wanted a small(ish) coupe.

Hmmm. Yeah I was comparing my comp X drive HP. Base m3 manual and m2 manual are about the same weight (within 30 lbs?) unless you opt for carbon pack. So if it’s not a DD the other parameters don’t matter. Save the cash and get a fun m2…. Makes sense. But personally after owning and contrasting the Z4 and G80cx, I would opt for the lower weight and don’t mind a HP loss - between the M2 and Supra, I would opt for the Supra but part of that is the appearance/looks, and I also don’t like iD8 screens and UI. Or if it was a DD I’d go for the M3 base instead because again not much of a weight penalty plus more practicality.

[donm527]

Originally Posted by T_U_D

Autocar went live 25 minutes ago.

Hmm... he said too much grip and traction for his liking also.

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by DarkstarZero

Oh, I agree, you can make the g87 fun. And I'm all for sympathetic modifications. That is, mods that even concourse judges would be like, "yeah, that's a good call."

The g87 will need a quality tune (not a cheap piggyback, but a real tune), a short shift kit, a carbon CAI for better intake noise, and M performance wheels. And then it'll be a blast.

You were making sense saying a real tune (Femto) and then kinda went downhill. A cf CAI for more noise? With the tune, you will need upgraded exhaust, downpipe (highflow catted best for noise and smell), you can go aftermarket intake or drop in aftermarket filter, possibly updated heat exchanger, colder plugs and any fully forged rims of your choice (M Performance may not be the best choice for performance based on weight and cost...I personally dont like the looks of them so its Vossen for me (I know, no cost savings with Vossen)).

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by donm527

Hmm... he said too much grip and traction for his liking also.

Why are people reviewing making comments like the car is for drifting or dirt track style driving (thats how they make it sound)?

[Ghostrider.1127]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Hmmm. Yeah I was comparing my comp X drive HP. Base m3 manual and m2 manual are about the same weight (within 30 lbs?)

5 kg more for an m3 manual RWD

[donm527]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

Why are people reviewing making comments like the car is for drifting or dirt track style driving (thats how they make it sound)?

Sounds like Chris Harris is not gonna like the new M2 as much.

[ESB]

Originally Posted by T_U_D

The Smoking Tire review just went live.

As others have said I think this was a pretty great and well balanced review. They clearly don't like the looks (we knew this already) but admit that it can either (a) grow on them or (b) become normal/classic with time. And then as far as the actual car performance, they clearly loved the automatic.

They mentioned they'll get ahold of a manual and make another video for that one, so it'll be interesting to see if they mention it not pairing well with the engine.

[ESB]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

Why are people reviewing making comments like the car is for drifting or dirt track style driving (thats how they make it sound)?

Haha yeah I haven't watched that video but even with TH I'd have framed it as

"the car has more grip and is faster and more stable and will perform better because of it. (PERIOD. FULL STOP). But, for those that associate M2s with playfullness RWD shenanigans, this increased grip takes some of that away"

Like, yeah I agree its weird to lead with "more grip is bad" since it's objectively better. But at the same time, I think it is fair play to call out that it departs a bit from what the older M2s were known for. For most people, it probably doesn't matter. But for other people it might.

[CodeSlinger]

Originally Posted by ESB

Haha yeah I haven't watched that video but even with TH I'd have framed it as

"the car has more grip and is faster and more stable and will perform better because of it. (PERIOD. FULL STOP). But, for those that associate M2s with playfullness RWD shenanigans, this increased grip takes some of that away"

Like, yeah I agree its weird to lead with "more grip is bad" since it's objectively better. But at the same time, I think it is fair play to call out that it departs a bit from what the older M2s were known for. For most people, it probably doesn't matter. But for other people it might.

Couldn't agree with this more, exactly my thoughts

[ESB]

Originally Posted by 86zccrx

Taken from when the G80/G82 were released, a thread talked about how the S55 and S58 compared and it seems like there were similar comments regarding power delivery.



https://g80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...63&postcount=4

I was going to mention this too. In some ways, this shouldn't be news. Even leading up to G80/G82 release there was a lot of chatter about the S58 in the X4M and its lack of power down low and whether it would be addressed for the M3/M4. Once the G80/82 came out I think I remember reviewers generally agreeing that the Automatic was a better match than the 6MT (but I don't remember anybody saying the 6MT was outright BAD) *and* early buyers having some mixed opinions of whether the power down low was worse than the S55.

[DarkstarZero]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

You were making sense saying a real tune (Femto) and then kinda went downhill. A cf CAI for more noise? With the tune, you will need upgraded exhaust, downpipe (highflow catted best for noise and smell), you can go aftermarket intake or drop in aftermarket filter, possibly updated heat exchanger, colder plugs and any fully forged rims of your choice (M Performance may not be the best choice for performance based on weight and cost...I personally dont like the looks of them so its Vossen for me (I know, no cost savings with Vossen)).

Sorry, I've come to like intake growl more than exhaust growl, and I'll take it when I can get it. I admit, doesn't always work on the turbo engines though.

[zero21]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

It's no surprise the car felt that way considering there is so much de-contenting that happened with the G87 compared to F87. Floating rear brakes, absence of carbon front strut, cast wheels, no mechanical handbrake, no M-DCT, the list goes on.
Frankly, I would not even consider this car if it weren't for the MT option. Engine is good, but the fact that they limited to 7200 rpm because they wanted to match the ZF8 that cannot rev higher due to oil cavitation, tells you how much has changed at the M division. Bean counters obviously saw the opportunity there and charged 600K for the 3.0 CSL with a simple DME tune, raising to 7500 rpm. There was no substantial engine development to justify 450K more vs. the previous M4 GTS which at least came with the water injection system.
The end product really shows their target market.

I understand what you're getting at but you're also spreading misinformation.

The current M3/M4 also have single floating rear caliper, steel strut brace, electric parking brake, etc. There was no decontenting other than turning the engine down (for obvious marketing reasons).

[M Hybrid V8]

Originally Posted by ESB

Haha yeah I haven't watched that video but even with TH I'd have framed it as

"the car has more grip and is faster and more stable and will perform better because of it. (PERIOD. FULL STOP). But, for those that associate M2s with playfullness RWD shenanigans, this increased grip takes some of that away"

Like, yeah I agree its weird to lead with "more grip is bad" since it's objectively better. But at the same time, I think it is fair play to call out that it departs a bit from what the older M2s were known for. For most people, it probably doesn't matter. But for other people it might.

Tires should also be considered. The new PS4S tires on the G87 have more grip than the PSS that were standard equipment on the F87. My M2CS came with PSS and it would slide around fairly easily, but when I put the Cup2 (star spec) tires on it was far more buttoned down and needs to be coerced more to slide unless the tires and/or road is cold.

[Humdizzle]

every reviewer and every generation of M car will be different

the letter M means different things to different people. there are guys who think an m340i and X3M are real full blown M cars. likewise there are people who feel M cars died once they started getting turbochargers and awd after the e9x generation.

and like that people are different. some people have an M2 as there weekend wheels and want something that thrills, slides, makes them feel on the edge and working with the chassis. other people want a daily driver to sip a latte to work in. or a track car that is no frills ... i point steering here, car go there... more of a GTR than a 86 or 1M... this was an issue with the last m2 as well.. what made it fun on the street made it nervous on tracks.

can't have 1 car that does it all.

[VIERsr]

It seems that the main problem with this car is its predecessors.
Taken by itself, it is a great car, but if you come from the 1M/F87 you may be disappointed.
Having had both, I'm not sure I could be in the game, but I'll wait to drive it before discarding it for good.