[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Ngilbe36

If you look at the lap by lap times for some of the drivers in the top 10, Max is pushing far more than PER, HAM, NOR, LEC, GAS, and VET. Lap over lap he was increasing his gap to Perez and Ham behind him after the restart. Lap 35, Per -0.466 Ham -0.612. Lap 40, Per -4.053 Ham -4.824. Lap 45, Per -4.463 Ham -5.569.

Are any of us all knowing and knew that Max would have a blow out and lose the race? No, but its not inconceivable to believe that some people would have had some idea that tires should have been a concern. At that same time Max was building a huge gap with only 5 laps to go against his teammate (PER) and a car they had been able to dominate all weekend (HAM).

Yes he wanted to have a ~5sec lead. You can see that in the numbers you provide yourself. In the last 5 laps the lead on PER expaded 4/10 of a sec.
That's less than 0,1 sec per lap.
VER also said that he anticipated on HAM/PER driving pace.
And that lead of ~5sec is imho also in line with the lead that HAM often keeps in races that he wins. That also mostly varies between 4 and 6sec, if his lead isnt 30sec+ of course (because that of course also happened very frequently, and apparently he therefore takes unnecesairy risks?!?)

So 5 sec imho isn't a 'huge' gap. That is still a distance that they can see eachother on various places on the track.

Anyway I think it's rather far fetched when people here think that they can think of something that the drivers themselves or the team leaders haven't thought of themselves. Because thats the general attitude of a lot of members here. All in hindsight of course.

[Ngilbe36]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Anyway I think it's rather far fetched when people here think that they can think of something that the drivers themselves or the team leaders haven't thought of themselves. Because thats the general attitude of a lot of members here. All in hindsight of course.

I don't think its too far fetched to believe we think of things the team principal isn't if we are talking about Ferrari...

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Ngilbe36

I don't think its too far fetched to believe we think of things the team principal isn't if we are talking about Ferrari...

This is how innovation occurs in any field of endeavor. Someone comes up with a better plan. And quite often it's a person from another industry who applies knowledge from that industry into their new industry.

An example of this is Henry Kaiser learning from Henry Ford about automobile manufacturing and applying it to ship building. I could easily name so many more but it also gets into mindset.

Anytime anyone says, "You can never know more than the experts", or some-such similar statement. I know the person has challenges thinking on their own and can be easily led about by, "experts".

Two of the most powerful words in all of language are, "what if..."

This is the question I'm asking. "What if VER didn't bang on so many fast laps?" Would he have brought the car home? If RBR isn't working with Pirelli to model this question, they are missing a big opportunity. Same for AM and Mercedes.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Ngilbe36

Couple of things. Just because an analysis is taking place after an event, doesn't meet there cant be insight found in it. I would almost guarantee many people were concerned about tires after Stroll had his blow out. If you weren't thinking about tires before the blow out, and you were after it, then you were aware of a potential issue. I know I was sitting on my couch thinking "Who is next?" I think that's what you referred to as "not proof, but stupid" but OK.

If you look at the lap by lap times for some of the drivers in the top 10, Max is pushing far more than PER, HAM, NOR, LEC, GAS, and VET. Lap over lap he was increasing his gap to Perez and Ham behind him after the restart. Lap 35, Per -0.466 Ham -0.612. Lap 40, Per -4.053 Ham -4.824. Lap 45, Per -4.463 Ham -5.569.

Are any of us all knowing and knew that Max would have a blow out and lose the race? No, but its not inconceivable to believe that some people would have had some idea that tires should have been a concern. At that same time Max was building a huge gap with only 5 laps to go against his teammate (PER) and a car they had been able to dominate all weekend (HAM).

^This, people here are fooling themselves if they don't think team principles weren't thinking about it (except maybe Binotto ). Now whether they could realistically do anything about it is another matter. The cut found on HAM's tire means nothing IMO in relation to STR and VERs. Pirelli was awful quick to jump on that.................I don't think we will ever really know as there is too much at stake for Pirelli and others.

Also, I and I don't think others (even MKSixer) are blaming RB/VER for still running the race the way they ultimately did. All we are saying is maybe it would of been prudent to back off considering the unknowns and the potentially spotty history of Pirelli tires etc. But, this section has turned into a dumpster fire like the political section was and things can hardly be discussed anymore because of a few fanboy's.

As for hindsight etc, that is what racing is based off and learning from that. IIRC, VER himself had a questionable high speed tire failure last year that was either a puncture or outright failure. Of course the telemetry isn't going to show this, hence the unexpected part. Maybe backing off wouldn't of mattered either and it still would of blown. It is all of of just being armchair racers/team principles after the fact. That's all this entire sub section is about as none of us hardly have any real information and are making educated guesses based on what we know.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by minn19

^This, people here are fooling themselves if they don't think team principles weren't thinking about (except maybe Binotto ). Now whether they could realistically do anything about it is another matter. The cut found on HAM's tire means nothing IMO in relation to STR and VERs. Pirelli was awful quick to jump on that.................I don't think we will ever really know as there is too much at stake for Pirelli and others.

Also, I and I don't think others (even MKSixer) are blaming RB/VER for still running the race the way they ultimately did. All we are saying is maybe it would of been prudent to back off considering the unknowns and the potentially spotty history of Pirelli tires etc. But, this section has turned into a dumpster fire like the political section was and things can hardly be discussed anymore because of a few fanboy's.

As for hindsight etc, that is what racing is based off and learning from that. IIRC, VER himself had a questionable high speed tire failure last year that was either a puncture or outright failure. Of course the telemetry isn't going to show this, hence the unexpected part. Maybe backing off wouldn't of mattered either and still would of blown. It is all of of just being armchair racers/team principles after the fact. That's all this entire sub section is about as none of us hardly have any real information and are making educated guesses based on what we know.

This.

Well said!!

[M5Rick]

[QUOTE=GuidoK;27680482]Yes he wanted to have a ~5sec lead. You can see that in the numbers you provide yourself. In the last 5 laps the lead on PER expaded 4/10 of a sec.
That's less than 0,1 sec per lap.
That also mostly varies between 4 and 6sec, if his lead isnt 30sec+ of course (because that of course also happened very frequently, and apparently he therefore takes unnecesairy risks?!?)

So 5 sec imho isn't a 'huge' gap. That is still a distance that they can see eachother on various places on the track.

*This.
When the lead would start creeping down hammy would INCREASE and maintain it and there's nothing more to add except from hammy fanbois.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by Ngilbe36

I don't think its too far fetched to believe we think of things the team principal isn't if we are talking about Ferrari...

True but still

[EdM5]

Originally Posted by minn19

But, this section has turned into a dumpster fire like the political section was and things can hardly be discussed anymore because of a few fanboy's.

You're right. Let's stop this nonsense and let's focus on the real topics.

Let me start with this interesting piece from the respected Michael Schmidt. Seems like the front tyres' lack of temperature is a serious challenge for MB.
Hope you can guys can understand German.

Nicht die Boxenstopps entschieden das Rennen, sondern die Technik. Ein Reifenplatzer raubte Max Verstappen den sicheren Sieg. Ein Hydraulikschaden hätte Sergio Perez fast 25 Punkte gekostet. Und ein Flüchtigkeitsfehler von Lewis Hamilton aktivierte ein Programm, dass die Bremsbalance extrem nach vorne stellt. Dass es gleich 86 Prozent sind, zeigt wie groß die Not von Mercedes ist, die Vorderreifen auf Temperatur zu bringen.

Der "Brake Magic"-Button kommt bei Mercedes in allen Formationsrunden vor einem Start oder einem Re-Start hinter dem Safety-Car zum Einsatz. Er stellt unter anderem die Bremsbalance nach vorne, um über die Hitze der Bremsen die Vorderreifen aufzuheizen. Schlangenlinien allein helfen da nicht. Mit den Hinterreifen tun sich die Fahrer einfach. Da liegen 1000 PS an der Kette.

Die Bremskraftverstellung und andere Parameter für die Aufwärmrunden werden je nach Strecke und Bedingungen programmiert. Laut einer Display-Anzeige in Hamiltons Mercedes waren es diesmal 86 statt normal 51 Prozent. Der Mercedes rauchte wie eine alte Dampflok aus den Vorderradbremsen, als er an der Startlinie ankam. Hamilton erklärte lapidar: "Wir müssen wegen unserer Probleme mit den Reifentemperaturen alle möglichen Dinge unternehmen, um das Problem zu lösen."

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by EdM5

You're right. Let's stop this nonsense and let's focus on the real topics.

Let me start with this interesting piece from the respected Michael Schmidt. Seems like the front tyres' lack of temperature is a serious challenge for MB.
Hope you can guys can understand German.

Nicht die Boxenstopps entschieden das Rennen, sondern die Technik. Ein Reifenplatzer raubte Max Verstappen den sicheren Sieg. Ein Hydraulikschaden hätte Sergio Perez fast 25 Punkte gekostet. Und ein Flüchtigkeitsfehler von Lewis Hamilton aktivierte ein Programm, dass die Bremsbalance extrem nach vorne stellt. Dass es gleich 86 Prozent sind, zeigt wie groß die Not von Mercedes ist, die Vorderreifen auf Temperatur zu bringen.

Der "Brake Magic"-Button kommt bei Mercedes in allen Formationsrunden vor einem Start oder einem Re-Start hinter dem Safety-Car zum Einsatz. Er stellt unter anderem die Bremsbalance nach vorne, um über die Hitze der Bremsen die Vorderreifen aufzuheizen. Schlangenlinien allein helfen da nicht. Mit den Hinterreifen tun sich die Fahrer einfach. Da liegen 1000 PS an der Kette.

Die Bremskraftverstellung und andere Parameter für die Aufwärmrunden werden je nach Strecke und Bedingungen programmiert. Laut einer Display-Anzeige in Hamiltons Mercedes waren es diesmal 86 statt normal 51 Prozent. Der Mercedes rauchte wie eine alte Dampflok aus den Vorderradbremsen, als er an der Startlinie ankam. Hamilton erklärte lapidar: "Wir müssen wegen unserer Probleme mit den Reifentemperaturen alle möglichen Dinge unternehmen, um das Problem zu lösen."

Thanks to Google Translate...

The race was not decided by the pit stops, but by the technology. A blown tire robbed Max Verstappen of winning. Hydraulic damage would have cost Sergio Perez almost 25 points. And a careless mistake by Lewis Hamilton activated a program that sets the brake balance extremely forward. The fact that it is 86 percent shows the need for Mercedes to get the front tires up to temperature.

The "Brake Magic" button is used at Mercedes in all formation laps before a start or a restart behind the safety car. Among other things, it adjusts the brake balance to the front in order to use the heat from the brakes to heat the front tires. Wavy lines alone don't help. With the rear tires, the drivers just do their thing. There are 1000 HP on the chain.

The braking force adjustment and other parameters for the warm-up laps are programmed depending on the route and conditions. According to a display in Hamilton's Mercedes this time it was 86 instead of the normal 51 percent. The Mercedes was smoking like an old steam engine from the front brakes when it got to the starting line. Hamilton said succinctly: "We have to do all sorts of things to solve the problem because of our problems with tire temperatures."

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by EdM5

You're right. Let's stop this nonsense and let's focus on the real topics.

It's almost impossible to prevent FORUM WAR amongst strangers with opposing opinions.

'Nonverbal behavior like body movements, posture, facial expressions, eye contact, hand gestures and tone of voice can't contribute to how we understand each other...' Purpose and intention are lost...Personalities clash.

Example, I can say "HAM sucks." You have no exact idea what I mean!

HAM fans can truly say he is the best driver. HAM has championships and history to easily support such a claim. But history will soon turn into legacy when HAM leaves.

VER fans have HOPE and time on their side with a VERY talented driver.
A championship this year?
New regulations next season.
I can easily see VER going on a HAM like run should RB get it right.

Maybe Ferrari can nail it for once

Will there be more irritation and Forum War? Definitely!

Should we take everything so personally? NO

Lastly, as a group, in person, I think we would ALL get along quite swimmingly

[Ngilbe36]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

It's almost impossible to prevent FORUM WAR amongst strangers with opposing opinions.

'Nonverbal behavior like body movements, posture, facial expressions, eye contact, hand gestures and tone of voice can't contribute to how we understand each other...' Purpose and intention are lost...Personalities clash.

Example, I can say "HAM sucks." You have no exact idea what I mean!

HAM fans can truly say he is the best driver. HAM has championships and history to easily support such a claim. But history will soon turn into legacy when HAM leaves.

VER fans have HOPE and time on their side with a VERY talented driver.
A championship this year?
New regulations next season.
I can easily see VER going on a HAM like run should RB get it right.

Maybe Ferrari can nail it for once

Will there be more irritation and Forum War? Definitely!

Should we take everything so personally? NO

Lastly, as a group, in person, I think we would ALL get along quite swimmingly

I agree with you for the most part, but there are also some times when its fairly clear things are said without a joking tone.

But forget about all that...
MAX SUX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MUAHAHAHA

[243Racing]

Originally Posted by Ngilbe36

I agree with you for the most part, but there are also some times when its fairly clear things are said without a joking tone.

But forget about all that...
MAX SUX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MUAHAHAHA

To be clear, I'm not joking when I say that I think Lewis, while a good driver, is completely fake, pretentious, and a bit of a twat.

That also doesn't mean I think any less of any of you who are LH fans No reason to take personally anything said about a driver.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by BeastieBombRacing

To be clear, I'm not joking when I say that I think Lewis, while a good driver, is completely fake, pretentious, and a bit of a twat.

That also doesn't mean I think any less of any of you who are LH fans No reason to take personally anything said about a driver.

Well said.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by Ngilbe36

I agree with you for the most part, but there are also some times when its fairly clear things are said without a joking tone.

But forget about all that...
MAX SUX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MUAHAHAHA

Agree, that's why I said Forum War will continue. Some of us think it is fun to stir the pot or poke the bear. Personality flaw if you will

Point is, had these discussions occurred at a race or bar things wouldn't have gotten out of control in the first place. It's not like a Hamilton fan can't wear #44 MB gear into the Red Bull Ring waving a Union Jack and have to worry bout an arse kicking. At least I hope not.

[India88]

Wonderful! Thanks for sharing

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Agree, that's why I said Forum War will continue. Some of us think it is fun to stir the pot or poke the bear. Personality flaw if you will

Point is, had these discussions occurred at a race or bar things wouldn't have gotten out of control in the first place. It's not like a Hamilton fan can't wear #44 MB gear into the Red Bull Ring waving a Union Jack and have to worry bout an arse kicking. At least I hope not.

Spot on which is why it is so aggravating to post in these fora. The last and next USGP I attend will be as a guest of a Red Bull employee. I wear my Mercedes kit and get treated with total respect and I treat them with total respect.

Quite wrongly, expected the same behavior here because I think F1 fans are special but I have been proven incorrect. Certain fans can behave just as ignorantly as the most backwards bumpkins from the deepest woods in the cheapest seats at the colosseum crying for the blood of the enemy of their favorite gladiator. It's really sad, imho.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Spot on which is why it is so aggravating to post in these fora. The last and next USGP I attend will be as a guest of a Red Bull employee. I wear my Mercedes kit and get treated with total respect and I treat them with total respect.

{insert / Killed by Death} SWEET, Enjoy!!!

Quite wrongly, expected the same behavior here because I think F1 fans are special but I have been proven incorrect...

Yep, forum discussions usually tail spin into Godwin's law. At least that hasn't happened here yet.

I still think F1 fans are special for the most part! I could wear my Ferrari gear into any venue / any country. Contrast that with American Football or European Soccer. Wearing rival gear into some stadiums can be down right scary. Rockin' a Carolina Panthers jersey into an Eagles game was amongst the most stupid decisions I ever made. My jersey still smells of beer, hotdogs & nachos that were thrown on me. Even got hit with a full water bottle. I won't attempt to describe the verbal abuse.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Yep, forum discussions usually tail spin into Godwin's law. At least that hasn't happened here yet.

I still think F1 fans are special for the most part! I could wear my Ferrari gear into any venue / any country. Contrast that with American Football or European Soccer. Wearing rival gear into some stadiums can be down right scary. Rockin' a Carolina Panthers jersey into an Eagles game was amongst the most stupid decisions I ever made. My jersey still smells of beer, hotdogs & nachos that were thrown on me. Even got hit with a full water bottle. I won't attempt to describe the verbal abuse.

Try a San Francisco jersey in Oakland.

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

. Rockin' a Carolina Panthers jersey into an Eagles game was amongst the most stupid decisions I ever made. My jersey still smells of beer, hotdogs & nachos that were thrown on me. Even got hit with a full water bottle. I won't attempt to describe the verbal abuse.

Eagles fans are the most abhorrent fans in the NFL. Exhibit A:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/t...-lacks-titles/

[///M Power-Belgium]

[QUOTE=M5Rick;27680882]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Yes he wanted to have a ~5sec lead. You can see that in the numbers you provide yourself. In the last 5 laps the lead on PER expaded 4/10 of a sec.
That's less than 0,1 sec per lap.
That also mostly varies between 4 and 6sec, if his lead isnt 30sec+ of course (because that of course also happened very frequently, and apparently he therefore takes unnecesairy risks?!?)

So 5 sec imho isn't a 'huge' gap. That is still a distance that they can see eachother on various places on the track.

*This.
When the lead would start creeping down hammy would INCREASE and maintain it and there's nothing more to add except from hammy fanbois.

So , I was reading this whole page late after work ..
Well my friend I had to LMFAO !
Such a F* BS !!!

The 5 sec. gap from MAX was too big ? And he was pushing too hard . And he had to think and save his tires. ect ...

• Where are the times ?

Where are the times that the Mercs ( Ham1 & Bot2 ) both idiots just pushed the rest out of sight !
I mean in every single race ...The race was actually already over after 6-7 laps , because both Mercs pulled a gap of 30 or 45 sec !
They even lapped the rest of the field !
Cruising in warp-speed to the next (Merc) victory !
Of course ...That was just fine for the Merc fanboys !

Such a BS !!! Give me a F* break !

[rwheels]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Try a San Francisco jersey in Oakland.

Or any other jersey with the Raiders.
(Now in Las Vegas)

[Autobacs]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Try a San Francisco jersey in Oakland.

This I can Believe.