[snekjumpr]

Originally Posted by BroDoze

I did. It was ok, other than having to redo it a bunch of times due to constantly changing the house curve. I then did some manual tweaks after the RTA. And then some more manual tweaks.
I just got 2 new SVS subs last night and re-ran my DENON’s Audyssey calibration at home. It’s almost a 1-button easy button with that.
This is not. There’s still a lot of work to “clean up” around the crossover points. So, that said, I haven’t touched REW, and I really should.
I have experienced a few more bugs in the PC-Tool. One where the global gain keeps changing. That’s been fun.

That drivers-side tweeter is so in-your-face compared to all other speakers, I found that I was having to crank it down and crank up the passenger side’s upper frequencies. This had a very positive impact on the front stage/image. That definitely helped things, but what’s happened is the RTA curves are pretty different than what the PCTool calibrated, after I’ve molested them.
It’s funny the differences that can be heard between a microphone and a human. The microphone apparently doesn’t care the tweeter is in-it’s-face.
As crazy as this sounds, dialing in manually to taste is honestly providing more satisfaction * to my ears * than the RTA. Sounds silly, but I’m almost ready to give up on the RTA, lol. That’s probably a very unpopular opinion. Or, I still need to RTA but I need to tweak my house curve some more. Just all takes a lot of time and your ears only have a certain amount of time before fatigue on any given day.
That was a ramble.

I cannot express how much better/different the car sounds with the pre-amp installed. Night and day. Very highly recommend it.

I agree with your thoughts here. Audyssey XT along with the phone app is an amazing turnkey solution for the home theater. But when it comes to car audio, I prefer working by ear for the time being. I'm shooting for the car audio version of Dolby 7.1, with a dominant front sound stage, and the center and rear channels creating surround sound.

[kenkamm]

Originally Posted by BroDoze

That drivers-side tweeter is so in-your-face compared to all other speakers, I found that I was having to crank it down and crank up the passenger side’s upper frequencies.

Does the PC Tool allow you to run the RTA for one output at a time, and does it set the level as well? Such that it should be automatically be compensating for the proximity of that tweeter.

Originally Posted by BroDoze

I cannot express how much better/different the car sounds with the pre-amp installed. Night and day. Very highly recommend it.

Stop it. I don't need things being added to my shopping list...

[BroDoze]

Originally Posted by kenkamm

Does the PC Tool allow you to run the RTA for one output at a time, and does it set the level as well? Such that it should be automatically be compensating for the proximity of that tweeter.

Yes, I've been doing one channel at a time. You kinda set the level manually.
And by the way, the whole level setting in the PC-Tool/RTA portion is a work in progress. Very unintuitive.
Even with that though, you don't really want to reduce gain, per se, on that left channel to quiet just the tweeter. By doing that, you'd be affecting the midrange as well. I found softening some of the offensive frequencies on that side was what worked for me (think like 4K-20k.) Took the edge off of it while still being at the correct gain/volume level.
My other ear actually needed some of those offensive frequencies increased. Oh and my ears aren't the same, lol. That's always nice.
The BT speakers and tweeters are a bit on the bright side. Yet, I'm not sure silk-domes are necessarily the answer, for me. Depends on the tweeters. I love the detail you can get with some non-silk-dome tweeters.

I love my Klipsch RF7 II's forward sound (horn tweeters) - extremely detailed, but I've had to soften them just a bit in the higher frequencies as well.

[kenkamm]

Originally Posted by BroDoze

Even with that though, you don't really want to reduce gain, per se, on that left channel to quiet just the tweeter. By doing that, you'd be affecting the midrange as well. I found softening some of the offensive frequencies on that side was what worked for me (think like 4K-20k.)

Yeah, I figured that was the only way to control the level of that tweeter - was to essentially bring it down in the EQ - since we don't have an individual amp channel on it.

[BMW DIY Guy]

So where are we all up on this?

For the AMAZING folks working on the solutions here, can we get a summary of the options?

Something like. Do we have finalized tune files?

1. amp plus stock speakers
2. Amp plus Alpha one speakers
3. Added hardware, whatever that pre-amp thingy is? (Lost track of what this is)

Thank you for all the hard work

[kenkamm]

Originally Posted by BMW DIY Guy

So where are we all up on this?

For the AMAZING folks working on the solutions here, can we get a summary of the options?

Something like. Do we have finalized tune files?

1. amp plus stock speakers
2. Amp plus Alpha one speakers
3. Added hardware, whatever that pre-amp thingy is? (Lost track of what this is)

Thank you for all the hard work

I *think* Tom (///MoT) is the only one here who has achieved what you might call a relatively high level of completeness of a tune with the stock speakers. I could be wrong, he might not have the stock speakers, so he'll have to chime in. I'd like to tag him, but the tagging system is flummoxed by the forward slashes in his user name.

BroDoze has the preamp, which bypasses the RAM. It takes the digital output straight from the head unit and sends it straight to the Match UP 10DSP. This means it cuts away all the stock amplification, active crossovers, etc... everything we don't really want if we're after the cleanest signal path. He has aftermarket speakers and I believe an aftermarket subwoofer as well. He's having pretty good success with his tune I believe.

AdonisP91 doesn't have his car yet (early March?) but has been playing around with the software tools and I'm sure he'll be coming up with something good.

Everybody will have to chime in and correct me where I've made mistakes above, but I think I'm close-ish!

[BroDoze]

Originally Posted by kenkamm

I *think* Tom (///MoT) is the only one here who has achieved what you might call a relatively high level of completeness of a tune with the stock speakers. I could be wrong, he might not have the stock speakers, so he'll have to chime in. I'd like to tag him, but the tagging system is flummoxed by the forward slashes in his user name.

BroDoze has the preamp, which bypasses the RAM. It takes the digital output straight from the head unit and sends it straight to the Match UP 10DSP. This means it cuts away all the stock amplification, active crossovers, etc... everything we don't really want if we're after the cleanest signal path. He has aftermarket speakers and I believe an aftermarket subwoofer as well. He's having pretty good success with his tune I believe.

AdonisP91 doesn't have his car yet (early March?) but has been playing around with the software tools and I'm sure he'll be coming up with something good.

Everybody will have to chime in and correct me where I've made mistakes above, but I think I'm close-ish!

Points for Flummoxed.

Pretty much the above! Have we seen Tom in a while?

[///MoT]

Originally Posted by BroDoze

Points for Flummoxed.

Pretty much the above! Have we seen Tom in a while?

I literally LOL'd at the "Points for Flummoxed" comment!

Hey guys. Really all I've done is downgrade the version of the DSP PC-Tool and the firmware in the amp to match the same versions that were used by BT with the tune files that they had provided me. I did this because I was experiencing a lot erratic behavior from the tool and saving sound files while trying to build my own tune file from scratch.

So I simply I took one file from BT that I thought sounded the best, and made personal tweaks to it, that might not suit others. Here are the things I changed:

• Bumped the Input Sensitivity down for all channels but the sub channels, to compensate for the car's system sounds being too loud (warning bongs, turn signal clicks, etc.)
• Bumped the overall gain of the amp up, and added a bit more gain to the rear and surround channels, as I prefer the "filled" sound
• Tweaked the overall EQ to my preference, which is a bit more highs, and reduced mids (1K-4K range)
• Edited the time delay for each speaker for my height/seating position. This was not drastically different to what was in the BT file I used

I am more than happy to share my final result file, if anyone wants to give it a go. It just may not suit your fancy.


-Tom

[kenkamm]

Originally Posted by ///MoT

• Edited the time delay for each speaker for my height/seating position. This was not drastically different to what was in the BT file I used

Hey Tom,

Did you use the UMIK-1 mic or a tape measure?

[BroDoze]

Thought I remembered Tom using the UMIK-1.^^

Have I mentioned how good this setup can sound?

I got some time behind the wheel yesterday (we touched the 50s briefly!) so I went tear-assing around in the car for a few hours and got some more listening time in. Also got some slight more manual EQ tweaking in. I think I’m pretty much done messing with the PC-Tool. It really sounds very clean and crisp. Bass is tight and hits hard. Great mid-bass. Front stage/image is right where I want it. And wow it’s got some power/volume.
It’s taken what - 3 months or something to get the audio where I wanted it? Yikes.
If I mess with anything else, it will be to drop the headliner and deaden that carbon roof. I am now absolutely 100% convinced the vast majority of resonance is coming from it. I’ve deadened and padded everywhere else. I could be wrong, but only slightly.
That will not be fun.
A ridiculous amount of stuff has to come out of the car.

Front seats, back seats, back seat sides (pita), a-pillar covers, b-pillar covers (whole thing, upper/lower), doors sills, dome lights (pita), visors, rear brake light (pita, already broke n replaced a clip when I prepped for rear tint) and c-pillar covers (major pita) and maybe rear deck lid (not sure until I mess with c-pillars).

Holy crap.

The noise floor will never be where it needs to be until I do this. There is so much resonance from the road/tires that’s gotta be from the roof.
I really think I would enjoy the car SO much more after this is done.
It may have to wait a few months as I’m going to need a lot warmer temps in the garage, and a clean garage floor to lay all the parts / blankets out.

[///MoT]

Originally Posted by kenkamm

Hey Tom,

Did you use the UMIK-1 mic or a tape measure?

I used the UMIK-1, then took notes on what the ms delay time was for each speaker when I was trying to create my own sound file from scratch. For my tweaked BT file, I just manually typed those values in.


-Tom

[kenkamm]

Tom,

Did you ever try disabling the center channel to see what the center image and staging was like without it? With time alignment, theoretically, the center channel becomes a lot less important.

[///MoT]

Originally Posted by kenkamm

Tom,

Did you ever try disabling the center channel to see what the center image and staging was like without it? With time alignment, theoretically, the center channel becomes a lot less important.

I did disable the center channel, and prefer it disabled. I currently have it enabled for the next 2-4 weeks just to give it a fair shot, then I'll try it again disabled to see what I truly prefer for the long term.


-Tom

[AdonisP91]

Originally Posted by kenkamm

Tom,

Did you ever try disabling the center channel to see what the center image and staging was like without it? With time alignment, theoretically, the center channel becomes a lot less important.

I’ve been thinking about disabling the center myself. Without the center that leaves 2 free channels for the DSP, which means one could separate the front midrange and tweeters, putting them on their own channels and bypassing the stock passive crossovers.

I’m just not sure how hard it would be to run some new wiring through the doors. I might try this down the line, especially if I decide to soundproof the doors. I guess for now I just need to get the basic setup with the DSP working. I spoke to my dealer today and they expect to receive my car on the 12th. So it won’t be long now for me to join the tuning party.

[kenkamm]

Originally Posted by AdonisP91

Without the center that leaves 2 free channels for the DSP, which means one could separate the front midrange and tweeters, putting them on their own channels and bypassing the stock passive crossovers.

This would be great from a power standpoint as well as a time alignment standpoint. Not to mention having the active crossovers.

Originally Posted by AdonisP91

I’m just not sure how hard it would be to run some new wiring through the doors.

Running some new wiring inside the doors would be easy. Running new wires to the doors I think would be the huge challenge and potential show-stopper. The connectors and wiring harnesses in these cars are highly integrated. Especially when you're talking about something that's booted to protect against water.

Sounds like you're going to have your car really soon! Awesome!

[BroDoze]

I’ve wondered about using my extry channels I have now after disconnecting my rear sides (only have the rear surrounds plugged in and they’re way low in volume, for the proximity bongs only(can barely hear them.))
…to have a true 2-way in the doors (band-pass midrange, hi-pass tweeter.)
Not sure if the level of effort (never looked at the grommets and harness set up running into the doors) would be worth it.
I think it might be worth it if you’ve invested in some really nice aftermarket speakers (nicer than BimmerTech’s current lineup.)

[AdonisP91]

Originally Posted by kenkamm

This would be great from a power standpoint as well as a time alignment standpoint. Not to mention having the active crossovers.


Running some new wiring inside the doors would be easy. Running new wires to the doors I think would be the huge challenge and potential show-stopper. The connectors and wiring harnesses in these cars are highly integrated. Especially when you're talking about something that's booted to protect against water.

Sounds like you're going to have your car really soon! Awesome!

Running it to the doors doesn’t worry me actually, except for one spot. Removing the rear bench and front seats is pretty straight forward so all one needs to do is tuck the cables under the carpet and run the speaker wire alongside the factory harness. I already created an adapter for my wiring harness that plugs into the DSP and factory wiring harness.

I also ordered some connectors from AliExpress that plug into the factory midrange and tweeters. This way the factory wiring harness is left untouched and it is easy to revert to stock anytime I want.

So the only tricky part is the connection between the door and the front foot wells. I’d need to squeeze my speaker cables through there.

[AdonisP91]

Originally Posted by BroDoze

I’ve wondered about using my extry channels I have now after disconnecting my rear sides (only have the rear surrounds plugged in and they’re way low in volume, for the proximity bongs only(can barely hear them.))
…to have a true 2-way in the doors (band-pass midrange, hi-pass tweeter.)
Not sure if the level of effort (never looked at the grommets and harness set up running into the doors) would be worth it.
I think it might be worth it if you’ve invested in some really nice aftermarket speakers (nicer than BimmerTech’s current lineup.)

I might have to invest in some aftermarket speakers for the front to achieve my goals, but I'm not sure. I'm obviously hoping the avoid it and make do with the stock speakers and tuning.

As we discussed up thread there is a problematic area between 100-200 hz in the mid-bass region.

Maybe going with a digital signal and bypassing the factory crossovers will solve the issue, and maybe combing multiple analog channels to create a full range signal will solve it. But if it doesn't, then I'll need to look at other possible solutions.

You mentioned upthread it might make sense to re-purpose the under seat woofer's and make them less of subwoofers and push them a bit higher in the frequency band.

Bypassing the factory crossovers will certainly let us do that, but below 120hz sound is very hard to localize. Once we get over 120hz the sound becomes more directional. We wouldn't want to have the deep voices in our music sound as if they are coming from under the seats. So for a proper blend it isn't clear how much higher than 120hz we can go.

The alternative way to skim the cat is to get some midrange speakers that can play lower than the stock speakers.

But here it isn't so easy to find something good and potentially affordable. Sadly no one has yet tested the Harman Kardon speakers for the tec specs, but elsewhere on this forum Billfitz tested the Hi-Fi speakers. We can use those for comparisons with many premium aftermarket upgrades to see which ones make sense.

Unfortunately, BimmerTech's Alphaone speakers, or BavSound don't provide proper tech specs to do an analysis. But we can model the Focal's, Helix's and Morel's.



Here is how the stock Hi-Fi speakers come out in modeling, before we get cancellations from within the car. I should note in my modeling I made sure not to let the speakers go past their xmax. So this gives us an idea of how they can play clean without distortion.

Next, let's look at the Focal Integrated series:



The underseat woofers may well sound better than the stock Hi-Fi ones but they will not help us in our troublesome mid-bass region. They roll off earlier than the stock Hi-Fi ones and don't play as loud. Similarly, though the midrange speaker can play louder, it also rolls off earlier than the stock, which doesn't help us once again in our trouble region.

How about the Audiotec Fischer Helix line?



The underseats are nearly identical to the stock Hi-Fi. The i7 high end midranges won't help us at all in the midbass, in fact they are much worse. the i3 is similar to the Focal midrange, can play higher but the roll off doesn't help us.

Finally let's look at the Morel's:



The underseat woofer doesn't perform better than the stock Hi-Fi one. The IP performance line midrange also doesn't perform better than the stock Hi-Fi. However, the reference line IR, which is very expensive, finally is a midrange speaker than can outperform the stock Hi-Fi midrange speaker. Will it outperform the stock Harman Kardon speaker??

This is why I said upthread we have to be very selective in our choice of speakers to try to upgrade with.

In any case, I'll have more interesting graphs when I do testing on the Harman Kardon speakers. I thought people might find this interesting though.

[BroDoze]

Couple things - I landed on 135hz for my low-pass on the under-seat woofers. I could probably run them higher without sounding bad/directional.
I was starting to notice anything higher than 135hz on my midrange's hi-pass was taking away mid-bass from them. So I settled on 135hz for both - all 24db curves. I could probably spend more time and overlap the under-seat woofers even higher on top of the midranges, but the car just sounds really good right now, so I've left it were my ears say it should be.
Whether or not the aftermarket BimmerTech under-seat woofers are great , they're definitely better than the stock crap that was in there. I was getting nothing but muffled nonsense out of the stockers, where I have actually definition and some musicality out of the BT woofers. Glad I swapped them out. Not to mention dual 7ohm stock woofers going to dual 4ohm BTs, they’re getting more power to them.
YMMV.

[Bimmer Frank]

Originally Posted by DailyDownshift

Yes, it is a repurposed Match UP 10DSP or at least that's what the DSP PC-TOOL identifies it as when connecting the amp to a laptop via usb. Using the software you can totally fine tune everything to your liking, but that's not something I would try as I'm an audio noob. Normally BT sends out preset files that you would just load onto the amp and that changes certain perimeters which changes the sound profile. Or they do it themselves on your laptop via teamviewer. The amp can hold up to 10 different audio profiles.

So why buy the repurposed instead of the original?

Seems like the Match is cheaper?

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_975UP1...stereo=Factory

[AdonisP91]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Frank

So why buy the repurposed instead of the original?

Seems like the Match is cheaper?

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_975UP1...stereo=Factory

The original is cheaper, and when I bought mine the distributor threw in the wiring harness for free. I think Crutchfieod has the harness for about 150$.

The only nice thing about the BimmerTech one is it comes with a mounting bracket specifically designed for the car model.

When I contacted BimmerTech they said they would sell it for something like 250$. So instead I purchased a piece of sheet metal from Amazon and will just make the bracket myself.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C6TD5J48

[BroDoze]

FYI you can always find ways to get 10% off at BT. I haven’t paid full price yet there.
Our resident BMW DIY Guy can help with that, and I’ve managed to time a few sales, direct.
That said, they definitely have an overhead built into their pricing.