[Cos270]

Originally Posted by chris719

That's not my experience.

Other than S65 and S85 which are fatally flawed designs, there's really not that much more maintenance. N52 will still be a pain in the ass with the same OFHG, valve cover gasket, oil pan gasket, etc. as an N55 and S55 but it's still an N52. If I wanted N52 output from a car in 2022, I sure wouldn't put up with the normal BMW BS. N54 is one of the least reliable designs in modern BMW history and it's not an M engine. At least it's a pretty nice engine when it works, but still no longer worth the trouble.

What premature maintenance does an S55 require that your N55 doesn't? If anything, the gaskets seem to last longer on the S55, especially the oil filter housing.

I'm not saying there is or isn't a difference. I'm making a comment on the sensibilities of the people that buy/prefer M cars. Most lease them or don't keep them long enough for those maintenance items to be a concern - whether they be specific to M or non-M engines is irrelevant.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Cos270

I'm not saying there is or isn't a difference. I'm making a comment on the sensibilities of the people that buy/prefer M cars. Most lease them or don't keep them long enough for those maintenance items to be a concern - whether they be specific to M or non-M engines is irrelevant.

You're most likely wrong. Percentage wise, I would guess more M owners buy them and hold on to them. The most leased cars were always the base 3 series. Residuals are always worse on M cars.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by chris719

You're most likely wrong. Percentage wise, I would guess more M owners buy them and hold on to them. The most leased cars were always the base 3 series.

That could be. For what's it's worth, I agreed with your previous post. The maintenance is basically the same.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by chris719

I may not have driven a N52 with a tune, but I doubt I would be that impressed. It's no S54, or even S52. I would take an N54 any day of the week. If I wanted a mediocre NA engine I'd just get a Nissan VQ . Turbo is different, not always worse.

I'm sure you're right on the transmissions. MT usually feel better inversely proportional to the torque they need to handle. Z4M shift into second is awful but it's good other than that.

I've driven other NA M engines, I just left the V8s off as I noted. S65 is a gem and S62 is great. The only 2001+ M engine I haven't ever experienced is S85.

Everything I've read says the N52 with intake/manifold/full exhaust and tune, puts down a bit more than what my S52 swapped E30 did 13 years ago.

But that S52 had the S50 intake manifold, OBD-I computer and tune, 3.5" Porsche MAF, Turner Equal-length headers and a custom full, mandrel bent 2.5" exhaust.

That put down 235/235 and was a blast in an E30.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

On what world does a stock 128i weigh a crack over 3050lbs? BMW lists the curb weight at 3208lbs and the 135i at 3370lbs which is what one would expect with the additional weight of the turbos, ancillary cooling systems, larger brakes, wheels, and tires. It is not 300lbs. LOL. It's not like the N54 has an iron block or something.

BMW lists curb weights "as typically optioned"

The 128i is typically optioned with automatic transmission, idrive, and sunroof.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Everything I've read says the N52 with intake/manifold/full exhaust and tune, puts down a bit more than what my S52 swapped E30 did 13 years ago.

But that S52 had the S50 intake manifold, OBD-I computer and tune, 3.5" Porsche MAF, Turner Equal-length headers and a custom full, mandrel bent 2.5" exhaust.

That put down 235/235 and was a blast in an E30.

I've long thought a N52 e30 or N52 2002 would be a glorious time. The lightness of the N52 should prevent it from undermining either car.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

My one N52 has 417,000 miles on it (33 oil changes). I don't need to say much more. So the pan leaked, BFD, most pans leak eventually. OFHG, another BFD, 1 hour repair.

S motors, 50,000-mile bearing wear, so one replaces the pan gasket before it starts to leak.

The only S motor that requires rod bearing replacement is S65/S85, and it's not every 50k, either. That design is flawed as I mentioned.

I'm not sure what's noteworthy here. You can own a motor with output like a Camry V6 but still requires more maintenance than one. When people 20 years from now talk about the old days of BMW, no one is going to give a second thought to an N52. Again, a fine engine, but claiming N52 E90 is the pinnacle of BMW or the last good car they made is completely absurd.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I've long thought a N52 e30 or N52 2002 would be a glorious time. The lightness of the N52 should prevent it from undermining either car.

Yeah, I'd love to get into the E30 game again. But I just can't bring myself to pay what a clean brings these days.

[Obioban]

I think he meant the s65 and s85 rod bearings are the wrong size, stock, and should be swapped with aftermarket.

Time will tell, but I think this is a misguided theory-- and as a result just put new OE rod bearings in my s85.

S54 rod bearings can have a hugely variable life span, depending how the car is driven. If you don't go over 7500rpm, they will outlast the engine. If you're on track and bump your rev limiter to, say, 8600rpm (and use it), you'll be replacing them ever 20,000 miles.

I do mine as oil analysis asks for them, which ends up being every ~100,000 miles (which, with my usage cycle, includes ~20,000 track miles... but my rev limiter is only 8300 and I try to shift at ~8000 if I'm not in a situation where it'll upset the balance of the car).

But, to my point-- I replaced the rod bearings in my M3 wagon's S54 for the first time at over 200,000 miles, and they were not yet end of life. It only saw a couple of track events.

[wdb]

Originally Posted by Obioban

S54 rod bearings can have a hugely variable life span, depending how the car is driven. If you don't go over 7500rpm, they will outlast the engine. If you're on track and bump your rev limiter to, say, 8600rpm (and use it), you'll be replacing them ever 20,000 miles.

I think proper warmup is a crucial element to S54 rod bearing lifespan as well. Don't jump on it until the oil temperature comes up.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by wdb

I think proper warmup is a crucial element to S54 rod bearing lifespan as well. Don't jump on it until the oil temperature comes up.

That’s how every ICEV should be treated.

Bringing this thread back around, one of my favorite things about the i3 is being able to get in it and romp on it immediately, instead of waiting for it to warm up.
The roads are me are spectacular, so it’s frustrating to have a cold car when ICEVing.

[Conissah]

My brother in law swaps cars a lot. Had a few trucks, then a Genesis G80, then a Camaro SS until he decided he didn't like his gas bill. Traded that for a Model 3, says it's the best decision he has ever made and he LOVES it. 4 days after taking ownership, the seat recliner breaks, and the seat is stuck all the way forward. Just thought it was humorous as I've heard more horror stories with Tesla quality than just about any other manufacturer, including FCA.

[wdb]

The E9X generation suffers from an excess of BMW trying to get too clever with electronics. Lesser equipped cars don't suffer as much from this. As much as I enjoy my 328i E93, it has far too much gadgetry.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So, if we can get off the ///M train for a second. Having spent a decent amount of time with a variant of every non-M 3-Series from the E21 to the F30, I'd say the E90 was the last of the classic BMW 3-Series sports sedan, which most 3-Series aficionados describe as a rear-wheel drive chassis with a naturally aspirated in-line 6 engine and a manual transmission. The F30 did not drive like a 3-Series, the G20 is not offered with a manual in the US Market; both those cars went soft and lost focus, while the Cadillac ATS/CTS 4 captured the classic BMW 3-series driving dynamics.

Yet I don't think I ever claimed "the E90 was the pinnacle of BMW or the last good car they made" (that'd be the E86 Coupe...). But I think the E90 has a better base in-line 6 engine and a better suspension than the E46. While most young BMW enthusiasts wax on poetically about the E30 as the most reliable and durable 3-Series, I'd argue the E90 was even better. I have a combined 670,000 mile and 34-year seat/wrenching time with both. In my fleet at this moment, I have a variant of the E36, E46, and E90. I still say the E30 had the best suspension design and is still the most engaging to drive.

Agreed that e90 was the last (though not best) classic 3 series. This was accentuated by being followed up by the worst driving 3 series ever (F30).

Last NA engine, last HPS, last you could get without idrive, last where manual was available across the line, etc.

It may be (in NA trim) be the most reliable, but it also SUCKS to work on compared to earlier cars. We got rid of our e91 primarily because I couldn’t stand working on it, and it just made me hate the car. First 3 series where they didn’t feel like they designed it with serviceability in mind.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Humm... S54 anyone?

S54 doesn't really have a rod bearing problem like S65 and S85. It did when it was launched before the recall, yes. I've seen S54s over 150k with original rod bearings. Does it wear them a little faster than a garden variety engine? Yes. Should you consider replacing them above 125k or something? Probably, depending on how it was driven.

S65 and S85 are far worse. Pretty much every engine is on borrowed time by 100k, and some never made it to 100k. Followed the threads for years and never seen a bearing pulled from one at high mileage that wasn't in horrific shape. It's not just the rod bearings, but also the main bearings in rare cases.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So, if we can get off the ///M train for a second. Having spent a decent amount of time with a variant of every non-M 3-Series from the E21 to the F30, I'd say the E90 was the last of the classic BMW 3-Series sports sedan, which most 3-Series aficionados describe as a rear-wheel drive chassis with a naturally aspirated in-line 6 engine and a manual transmission. The F30 did not drive like a 3-Series, the G20 is not offered with a manual in the US Market; both those cars went soft and lost focus, while the Cadillac ATS/CTS 4 captured the classic BMW 3-series driving dynamics.

Yet I don't think I ever claimed "the E90 was the pinnacle of BMW or the last good car they made" (that'd be the E86 Coupe...). But I think the E90 has a better base in-line 6 engine and a better suspension than the E46. While most young BMW enthusiasts wax on poetically about the E30 as the most reliable and durable 3-Series, I'd argue the E90 was even better. I have a combined 670,000 mile and 34-year seat/wrenching time with both. In my fleet at this moment, I have a variant of the E36, E46, and E90. I still say the E30 had the best suspension design and is still the most engaging to drive.

I know what you mean about the E90 being the tipping point for change at least as far as the 3 series is concerned. I have to say I did prefer the E46 and even more the E36. Everyone has their preferences as to how modern they want a car to feel. Do you have to step up in the line now to get characteristics you would get in the base cars before? Yes. A lot of this is the EPS tuning.

To say that the E86 was the last good car they made is not something I can get onboard with, and I owned a Z4M. Maybe it was the best car they made in some respects, but last good car? I don't think so. Would I want an F30? Not really, but I have enjoyed the F80, F82, F22, and F87 and think they are good products.

[freakystyly]

Doesn't the E86 use electric power steering? I regret not buying one (Z4M), but it was cheaper to get a 240i at that point. Another F chassis' failure was it's beefy hydro bushings in their control arms, the EPS just amplifies the steering deadness.

EPS isn't an evil word, it just sucks when done poorly.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

Doesn't the E86 use electric power steering? I regret not buying one (Z4M), but it was cheaper to get a 240i at that point. Another F chassis' failure was it's beefy hydro bushings in their control arms, the EPS just amplifies the steering deadness.

EPS isn't an evil word, it just sucks when done poorly.

100% of BMW's efforts in EPS have sucked.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

Doesn't the E86 use electric power steering? I regret not buying one (Z4M), but it was cheaper to get a 240i at that point. Another F chassis' failure was it's beefy hydro bushings in their control arms, the EPS just amplifies the steering deadness.

EPS isn't an evil word, it just sucks when done poorly.

M versions of E85 and E86 use hydraulic.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Now the serviceability part regarding the E90 I can't agree with. I do agree with it not being as easy as the E30 in some respects (like the heater core...) but I found the E90 suspension easier than an E30. 100,000-mile tune ups with the E90. The serp belt is easy as pie. Brakes are easy. Cooling system hoses are just fucking plain-ass stupid, but every BMW bast 2000 has the stupid hose connectors. Oil pan is a bit of a bitch. Valve cover is a bit more difficult, but the M20 was meant to be removed at 30,000-mile intervals. Coolant change on an E90? It doesn't get easier than bleeding with an electric water pump.

The E46 is just as much a PIA as the E90 is.

Ehhh, that's just not true

I had to drill and tap my own drain hole in the diff, because who wants to drain fluids.

No dip stick makes every oil change worse.

Most of the hardware that goes into the motor is one time use, so things like replacing the water pump means new all things.

Every project begins with a time consuming disassembly of the large plastic array above the engine.

The valve cover is plastic, so if you're not careful it cracks when removed after it gets brittle with heat/time.

800 times more control arms means every suspension project is a PITA.

Entire exhaust is one section, so any project where the exhaust needs to come out you have to take out everything from the headers back-- instead of just the piece in the way of your project.

Battery replacement needs a computer, and they last half as long for reasons unknown, even though the function of the battery programming is longer battery life.

TPMS sensors are only worse than the rotational based TPMS system used in the e46 (and e9X outside of the USA). They make wheels need a ton of weight to balance and require batteries. Plus you have to buy them.

Fuel filter is in the gas tank instead of accessible.

Rear main seal requires a special removal tool and 3 stage sealant instead of just... replacing it.

just things I'm remembering off the top of my head-- sold the car 6 years ago, so I'm sure I'm missing a ton of things than made me want to blow it up. I generally enjoy working on cars, but every time I did a project on that one I came in telling my wife it was time to sell it. Freaking miserable.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Lol. Rear diff, I use a pneumatic oil extractor (every good shop has one). It sucks the diff dry in about 2 minutes. Cabin air filter uses 8 fasteners and takes about 3 minutes to remove once you've done it once. E46 has a similar set up. I will say the E90 cabin air filter housing could have been designed better.

Oil changes: drain the oil, suck out the residual in the OFH (using that dang pneumatic oil extractor), fill with 7 quarts... done. Fuel filter... it's lifetime, mine has filtered some 15,000 gallons of fuel.

The '06 N52 has a magnesium valve cover. I've not yet had to mess with my E86's plastic cover. I'll have to reserve judgement.

Why would you replace a rear crank seal if it is not leaking? 2006 -2008 have passive TPMS; no sensors. Later years can be reprogrammed to passive.

Exhaust... every 3-series I've owned has a headers-back exhaust.

Granted, E90 batteries are a PIA to replace and seem to go tits up early for being in the trunk. I'll give you that one.

Pneumatic fluid extrator is only functionally worse.

I was talking about the housing, that has to come off for almost every engine project— not the filter itself.

Lifetime filters are as desirable as lifetime fluids.

Just remembered another— bulbs that have to be accessed through the fender. Dumb.

I did the rear main seal because it was leaking.

Nice that early cars didn’t have plastic valve covers or tpms sensors. Too bad that situation only lasted two years, and were during the period e90s were disablingly ugly.

[paunchydad]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

Even if they do , I have made my money off of them. That stock was a cash cow!!🤑

wow! Didn't know this!