[rons e92]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

Not sure I'm buying it. I checked all those back-of-wheel pockets when I returned from Arizona, thinking the same thing about debris, and they were all clean. This same noise is being heard on other BMW's with OEM wheels, so there's that.

I know, I don't know if I buy it either.

Tonight I'll post the video and I'll show the service record. Maybe we can figure this out. If it was just the wheels they wouldn't be covering it. There has to be more.

[PBANDJ]

I deal with service departments pretty regularly and in a lot of cases, techs are making educated guesses and a lot of times they are wrong, especially if an aftermarket part might be involved. I had a 2020 GTI that had a weird vibration but only at certain speeds. Took it to dealer and they checked everything and said it was my aftermarket wheels. I knew the vibration was present before I got the wheels so I put the OEM wheels back on and took it back. They indicated it was likely due to me installing the wheels instead of having them “professionally” installed. They took wheels off and put back on, vibration still existed. Their new theory was I must have damaged “something” when changing the wheels. The reality was they couldn’t find the cause so were just shifting blame. They can’t bill unlimited hours for diag so they stop looking if it gets too hard.

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by rons e92

I know, I don't know if I buy it either.

Tonight I'll post the video and I'll show the service record. Maybe we can figure this out. If it was just the wheels they wouldn't be covering it. There has to be more.

Take a look at this; the G42 is included...

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1999946

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by bstingler

I deal with service departments pretty regularly and in a lot of cases, techs are making educated guesses and a lot of times they are wrong, especially if an aftermarket part might be involved. I had a 2020 GTI that had a weird vibration but only at certain speeds. Took it to dealer and they checked everything and said it was my aftermarket wheels. I knew the vibration was present before I got the wheels so I put the OEM wheels back on and took it back. They indicated it was likely due to me installing the wheels instead of having them “professionally” installed. They took wheels off and put back on, vibration still existed. Their new theory was I must have damaged “something” when changing the wheels. The reality was they couldn’t find the cause so were just shifting blame. They can’t bill unlimited hours for diag so they stop looking if it gets too hard.

That almost sounds like something from a SNL skit.

My dealership just called to let me know there's a Service Bulletin, which I uploaded above. I wish I could hear the sounds, as I'm not sure I'd describe mine as a cracking or creaking sound, but people tend to use different adjectives to describe things.

[XC3LLR8]

I should've done this from the beginning...

My wife and I went to the large parking lot at the church behind our house. She drove it (first time) in big ovals around me and I could easily hear the clicking/ticking sound consistently and equally at all 4 wheels.

I believe this rules out any suspension components unique to the front vs. back, and rules out the service bulletin as it addressed sounds specific to the front. As much as I hate to admit it, I'm starting to think it's the Apex forged aluminum wheels; nothing else seems to make any sense.

At this point I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with the wheels, as I've had them up to 155 MPH and over 100 MPH for well over 100 (maybe 200) miles while on a 2,500 mile road trip and everything always felt perfect. My hunch at this point is something to do with metallurgy properties between the forged aluminum, hub, and maybe even the lug bolts.

Over the next day or two I may take the wheels off and apply a thin coat of anti-seize between the back of the wheel and hub (like I do with spacers) and then see (hear) what happens.

[XC3LLR8]

rons e92 Any updates? BTW, what tires are you running on your Apex wheels?

[rons e92]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

rons e92 Any updates? BTW, what tires are you running on your Apex wheels?

I think your anti seize solution might be the fix. When the noise started in my car I had Macht Schnell wheel studs on the car. I replaced those with the OEM lugs and the noise continued. Not sure it's the studs/lugs.

I didn't hear anything on the drive home last night, nor on my ride into the office this morning. I think they might have fixed it.

Sorry I didn't get you that video last night. I just have so much going on I have no control of my time anymore. I'll try to get it tonight for you.

As for the tires, I'm running 245/40r19 up front and 275/35r19 out back. Tires are Michelin PS4S.

I don't know if you're familiar with bikes at all, but I rode BMX for a very long time uo until a few years ago. The cranks would make a very similar clicking/creaking sound after a while if things got a little loose and some dirt was able to get into the spindle. We would just blast it with break clean, regrease everything, and reassemble and the noise would be fixed. This reminds me a lot of that situation. These wheels might just require a different torque value.

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by rons e92

I think your anti seize solution might be the fix. When the noise started in my car I had Macht Schnell wheel studs on the car. I replaced those with the OEM lugs and the noise continued. Not sure it's the studs/lugs.

I didn't hear anything on the drive home last night, nor on my ride into the office this morning. I think they might have fixed it.

Sorry I didn't get you that video last night. I just have so much going on I have no control of my time anymore. I'll try to get it tonight for you.

As for the tires, I'm running 245/40r19 up front and 275/35r19 out back. Tires are Michelin PS4S.

I don't know if you're familiar with bikes at all, but I rode BMX for a very long time uo until a few years ago. The cranks would make a very similar clicking/creaking sound after a while if things got a little loose and some dirt was able to get into the spindle. We would just blast it with break clean, regrease everything, and reassemble and the noise would be fixed. This reminds me a lot of that situation. These wheels might just require a different torque value.

Another update...

Just came in from the garage where I've tried several things after reading about similar events from other brands. This one took awhile to comb through as it's 434 replies!

https://www.tundratalk.net/threads/r...-sound.109054/

Long story short, I believe the OP finally just gave up and decided to drive with his windows and radio up.

I decided to just work on the driver's side as I could easily hear the noise from both sides with the windows down. No need to double my efforts if each experiment didn't work.

I started with popping off the center caps and then drove back and forth the length of my driveway (about 23 yards) several times. Sound's still there.

I then slightly tightened my valve stems with an 11mm socket. Sound's still there.

I then torqued my lugs to 120 ft/lbs. Sound's still there.

I then took out my 13mm spacers and extended lug bolts I used with my OEM wheels. Installed them on the driver's side, with each still having a thin layer of anti-seize. Put the wheels back on (which made the driver's side look pretty menacing with the aggressive offset) and torqued the lugs to 105 ft/lbs. Sound's gone.

I'm not typing with too much excitement just yet as many people have reported many different fixes, only for the sound to return X miles and X days later. However, I did drive through the neighborhood and while I could easily hear the passenger side tick'n away, the driver's side was silent. I could be wrong, but I'm really thinking the forged aluminum and the metal used in our hubs just don't get along.

At this point I'm going to figure out what I believe to be an ideal size spacer to go with the et25 I already have, as I'm already perfectly happy with the current offset w/o any spacers. I'm thinking 3mm all around and new lug bolts that are just a little longer than OEM. I do not want to use the extended lug bolts I have with the 13mm spacers as they will hit something inside the hub and make an entirely different noise when the wheel rotates.

I'll update if the noise returns...

[rons e92]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

Another update...

Just came in from the garage where I've tried several things after reading about similar events from other brands. This one took awhile to comb through as it's 434 replies!

https://www.tundratalk.net/threads/r...-sound.109054/

Long story short, I believe the OP finally just gave up and decided to drive with his windows and radio up.

I decided to just work on the driver's side as I could easily hear the noise from both sides with the windows down. No need to double my efforts if each experiment didn't work.

I started with popping off the center caps and then drove back and forth the length of my driveway (about 23 yards) several times. Sound's still there.

I then slightly tightened my valve stems with an 11mm socket. Sound's still there.

I then torqued my lugs to 120 ft/lbs. Sound's still there.

I then took out my 13mm spacers and extended lug bolts I used with my OEM wheels. Installed them on the driver's side, with each still having a thin layer of anti-seize. Put the wheels back on (which made the driver's side look pretty menacing with the aggressive offset) and torqued the lugs to 105 ft/lbs. Sound's gone.

I'm not typing with too much excitement just yet as many people have reported many different fixes, only to return X miles and X days later. However, I did drive through the neighborhood and while I could easily hear the passenger side tick'n away, the driver's side was silent. I could be wrong, but I'm really thinking the forged aluminum and the metal [...]

That's really interesting. Maybe I'll order a 1mm spacer then if the noise comes back and get another set of studs.

We're scientists now.

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by rons e92

That's really interesting. Maybe I'll order a 1mm spacer then if the noise comes back and get another set of studs.

We're scientists now.

Aaaaaand another update...

I tend to do things backwards

I decided to call Apex and give them a long-winded rundown of what's been going on. He knew exactly what I was talking about, and ironically it's pretty darn close to my original suspicion.

Turns out a very large number of BMW's have this ticking sound in their suspension, but the harmonics are such that it seldom gets transmitted to the point of hearing it. With the forged Apex wheels/spokes being extremely stiff (drum vs. trashcan lid), they tend to transmit the ticking noise much more efficiently. Funny fact: one of the Apex engineers has the same noise on his car.

Attached is a Service Information Bulletin that provides a part number for a friction disc, although the G42 is not included (Apex rep told me he'd be shocked if the G42 doesn't end up being included soon).

https://www.getbmwparts.com/oem-part...00-34106884839

I still think I'm going to go the 3mm spacer route simply because I like the idea of a little more offset, but at least we now have a part number for the friction disc. When I tried describing what I was looking for to the BMW parts counter he kept trying to sell me a rotor dust cover. LOL

BMW (34-10-6-884-839)

[rons e92]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

Aaaaaand another update...

I tend to do things backwards

I decided to call Apex and give them a long-winded rundown of what's been going on. He knew exactly what I was talking about, and ironically it's pretty darn close to my original suspicion.

Turns out a very large number of BMW's have this ticking sound in their suspension, but the harmonics are such that it seldom gets transmitted to the point of hearing it. With the forged Apex wheels/spokes being extremely stiff (drum vs. trashcan lid), they tend to transmit the ticking noise much more efficiently. Funny fact: one of the Apex engineers has the same noise on his car.

Attached is a Service Information Bulletin that provides a part number for a friction disc, although the G42 is not included (Apex rep told me he'd be shocked if the G42 doesn't end up being included soon).

https://www.getbmwparts.com/oem-part...00-34106884839

I still think I'm going to go the 3mm spacer route simply because I like the idea of a little more offset, but at least we now have a part number for the friction disc. When I tried describing what I was looking for to the BMW parts counter he kept trying to sell me a rotor dust cover. LOL

BMW (34-10-6-884-839)

Great work detective!

I'll be honest, I definitely felt a difference in turn in with the 10mm spacers I was running with my stock ZTK wheels. I'd much prefer the friction ring to running a spacer.

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by rons e92

Great work detective!

I'll be honest, I definitely felt a difference in turn in with the 10mm spacers I was running with my stock ZTK wheels. I'd much prefer the friction ring to running a spacer.

In my case I'm running 265's all around, so the turn-in feels as good or better - sorta hard to tell on city streets. However, I did some canyon driving with this setup in the NM and AZ mountains and I can honestly say anything capable of more is just dumb!

I placed my order for a set of 5mm spacers and the appropriate lug bolts with Apex. In the meantime, I removed the spacers from the driver's side experiment, cleaned the hub and backside of wheel, and applied a thin coat of anti-seize. Went for another drive and all silent on the driver's side. I suspect over time the ticking will return if I left it at that. However, I have high hopes the 5mm spacers will be a permanent fix and improve the stance as well (doesn't need much), and if not I'll add the friction rings.

[rons e92]

Alright, so as promised, here is the video from service when they looked at the car last week.

https://youtube.com/shorts/1zdWo-4egQA

The sound was gone for a few days, but I noticed it a little yesterday and it's completely back today.

Driving home I experimented a little and the sound is definitely coming from both rear wheels. It doesn't seem like there is an issue with the fronts.

I have 19x10 rear wheels and I think you have a different size, so im ruling an issue with the wheels themselves out.

I notice the sound gets much more significant under lateral load. If I take a turn left the sound comes from the right side much more pronounced and vice versa.

The drivers side is quieter than the passenger side when driving straight, but you can still hear clicking from both sides.

Im at a loss right now. Im seriously considering just selling these wheels because I don't want to listen to that sound forever. It's maddening as soon as you crack a window.

I think I might have to make a call to Apex because I've reached the limits of my knowledge of inner suspensions components. I just can't understand where this sound could be coming from.

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by rons e92

Alright, so as promised, here is the video from service when they looked at the car last week.

https://youtube.com/shorts/1zdWo-4egQA

The sound was gone for a few days, but I noticed it a little yesterday and it's completely back today.

Driving home I experimented a little and the sound is definitely coming from both rear wheels. It doesn't seem like there is an issue with the fronts.

I have 19x10 rear wheels and I think you have a different size, so im ruling an issue with the wheels themselves out.

I notice the sound gets much more significant under lateral load. If I take a turn left the sound comes from the right side much more pronounced and vice versa.

The drivers side is quieter than the passenger side when driving straight, but you can still hear clicking from both sides.

Im at a loss right now. Im seriously considering just selling these wheels because I don't want to listen to that sound forever. It's maddening as soon as you crack a window.

I think I might have to make a call to Apex because I've reached the limits of my knowledge of inner suspensions components. I just can't understand where this sound could be coming from.

Mine’s still quiet with the thin layer of anti-seize all around.

You could also try a thin spacer like I’m doing, as I’m thinking that will be a permanent fix.

Then there’s the Service Bulletin mentioned above that includes a very thin spacer (friction ring) between the wheel bearing assembly and hub. That’s actually what they should’ve performed for you instead of just cleaning the hub surface. You may want to ask them if they’ll complete that service as it’s not the wheels making the noise, they’re just amplifying the noise made by the suspension.

[Coconut]

This ticking noise is somewhat common with cars with 2-piece rotors. It’s well documented on Corvette C7’s (Grand Sport and Z06), Dodge Hellcats and some BMW’s, all of which have 2-piece rotors. Our M240’s use a weird OEM style rotor with an aluminum hat and steel friction ring. Fairly certain it’s not serviceable as a true 2-piece rotor but the main point is the use of the aluminum hat and attachment hardware that lets the steel friction ring expand. I have Stoptech BBK’s on my C7 which uses 2-peice rotors and I have clicking on the front wheels. Loosening/retorquing the lugnuts makes the clicking go away but it always comes back after a few hundred miles. Based on the BMW TSIB you attached, I believe the root cause is indeed the small gap/play in between the hub and rotor along with with the use of forged wheels which apparently transmits the noise more so than the stock cast wheels. Steel (hub) and aluminum (rotor hat) have different CTE’s values, so the differing expansion rate would cause small gaps in between which leads to the ticking. You don’t have ticking with solid steel rotors because it’s steel on steel (same CTE).

There is a chance using spacers might solve the issue since you are adding mass which could potentially dampen the ticks.

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by Coconut

This ticking noise is somewhat common with cars with 2-piece rotors. It’s well documented on Corvette C7’s (Grand Sport and Z06), Dodge Hellcats and some BMW’s, all of which have 2-piece rotors. Our M240’s use a weird OEM style rotor with an aluminum hat and steel friction ring. Fairly certain it’s not serviceable as a true 2-piece rotor but the main point is the use of the aluminum hat and attachment hardware that lets the steel friction ring expand. I have Stoptech BBK’s on my C7 which uses 2-peice rotors and I have clicking on the front wheels. Loosening/retorquing the lugnuts makes the clicking go away but it always comes back after a few hundred miles. Based on the BMW TSIB you attached, I believe the root cause is indeed the small gap/play in between the hub and rotor along with with the use of forged wheels which apparently transmits the noise more so than the stock cast wheels. Steel (hub) and aluminum (rotor hat) have different CTE’s values, so the differing expansion rate would cause small gaps in between which leads to the ticking. You don’t have ticking with solid steel rotors because it’s steel in steel (same CTE).

There is a chance using spacers might solve the issue since you are adding mass which could potentially dampen the ticks.

That’s a great explanation, and made me realize I’ve been calling the rotor hat the hub incorrectly, so apologies for any confusion.

Makes me wonder what the friction ring is made of - is it synthetic, graphite, etc.?

[Coconut]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

That’s a great explanation, and made me realize I’ve been calling the rotor hat the hub incorrectly, so apologies for any confusion.

Makes me wonder what the friction ring is made of - is it synthetic, graphite, etc.?

I think it would be a softer metal than steel, perhaps copper or nickel. The friction ring would essentially conform and fill in the gaps much like a copper crush washer. I think it would for sure get rid of the ticks but you’ll need to unbolt the calipers to install it. Also with it installed the position of the rotors will be moved outboard a tiny bit, probably 0.5mm or so (whatever the friction ring thickness is). The 4 piston front calipers will of course account for this difference.

[Coconut]

XC3LLR8

Can you confirm if the VS-5RS wheels are indeed hubcentric? Does the wheel slot in securely on the hub with little to no play?

Also, do you notice a difference with the new wheels compared to stock ZTK wheels? They should be 8-10 lbs lighter per corner, not sure if that translates to better handling, more “eager” to get off the line, more harshness/vibration.

I ordered a set of 19x9” fronts, 19x10” rears but they’re backordered until July/Aug.

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by Coconut

XC3LLR8

Can you confirm if the VS-5RS wheels are indeed hubcentric? Does the wheel slot in securely on the hub with little to no play?

Also, do you notice a difference with the new wheels compared to stock ZTK wheels? They should be 8-10 lbs lighter per corner, not sure if that translates to better handling, more “eager” to get off the line, more harshness/vibration.

I ordered a set of 19x9” fronts, 19x10” rears but they’re backordered until July/Aug.

Yes, they’re hub centric and all lug bolts can easily be screwed in with wheel sitting on hub ring.

Mine weigh 19 lbs (19x9.5 et25 all around), and I can tell the car reacts quicker and smoother to road irregularities. I haven’t tried a Draggy time since installing the wheels, but the car does feel like it accelerates a little quicker. Could be a placebo, so…

My last Draggy was back in December with much cooler temps and included the JB4 and xHP, but not the downpipe or lightweight wheels. I’m hoping under ideal conditions I could now hit a 0-60 in the 3.3’s and a 1/4 in the lower-mid 11’s. BTW, that’s a 0-60 in the 3.1’s if reported by most car magazines, since they often use 1 foot of rollout.

Numbers aside, the car feels like a rocket. So much so my wife made me promise no more launches with her in the car as it makes her nauseous.

[mblaucoupe135]

I'm running 13mm spacers all around with my apex wheels and haven't noticed any clicking sounds. However I do keep my music up pretty loud so maybe that is helping to cover up the sound! Lol

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by mblaucoupe135

I'm running 13mm spacers all around with my apex wheels and haven't noticed any clicking sounds. However I do keep my music up pretty loud so maybe that is helping to cover up the sound! Lol

It’s very possible the 13mm spacers prevents the ticking. I now have 5mm spacers and so far I’m quiet.

[mblaucoupe135]

Actually the spacers didn't completely eliminate the clicking. I don't hear it when going straight, but when I'm on a windy mtn road and turn the wheel about half a turn either way, I hear major clicking. Sounds like I have a rattlesnake in my wheels. Lol