[Tambohamilton]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

It's not that I have doubts. I just don't know what "long term" ownership is like, which is why I'm asking. The handful of times that I have driven manual I've enjoyed it - I was just wondering if that enjoyment would last over the course of multiple years or if there's something I'm missing or not considering. Kind of a "yeah manual cars are a lot of fun but after a while you just kind of get tired of it".

But since you're a lifer, it seems that may not be the case. I'm truly coming at this without a bias. It's hard to have doubts when I don't have the experience. Rather, it's curiosity and interest.

My response above is still the same. Manuals are more involving etc, but they're not stand-out better in any way. If you don't want a manual any more than plain curiosity, I'd say you don't stand to gain much from it.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Dino GT

If you don`t drive in stop and go traffic for an hour or so (and it looks like you don`t) I`d say go for a manual. You can always switch back to an automatic if you don`t like it, but if you don`t try it, you will never know if it`s for you. I`ve been driving manual cars all my life and last year a changed my daily driver to an automatic. I still have manual cars, but they are for pleasure driving only. A lot of people say they can drive manual in stop and go traffic, good for them. But I don`t think they are driving in bumper to bumper traffic for an hour or more. For me after 35+ years of driving manual in heavy traffic, I got tired of going from first to second for an hour or so. There is nothing more satisfying then rowing thru the gears of a sports car when you are on an open road or the track, but it`s a different story when you are in bumper to bumper traffic, G.L.

Thanks for the perspective. Yup definitely no bumper to bumper traffic except for the rare occasion if I get caught somewhere out of the ordinary (like taking the highway to visit my parents and there happens to be an accident that's causing traffic buildup). My daily commute is mostly local roads to/from my daughter's school.

[No Boost]

An automatic does provide a nice respite from rowing if needed. So having both at your disposal is ideal. If only one car though, manual without question or hesitation, regardless of make/model.

[stein_325i]

Manual yes, the only problem with your options is that only one of those cars actually have a good manual transmission. BMW manuals are not the best, especially the newer ones, the tremec gearbox in the Caddy is a lot better, the BMW will require modding to make it better, and the face is well… you know.

If there's space in the garage for a third car, then Miata is Always the Answer (or even now BRZ/86).

[ntg44]

In my opinion it depends on the car.

My 09 WRX with AWD, no low end torque and long gears was pretty annoying to drive in anything but long highway stretches. The shift shock was also pretty intense if you didn't match the rpm very well due to the AWD.

My 350z was fine, rwd has less shift shock than AWD so you don't need to be right on the money every shift, there's a little more give.

In my R8 the flywheel is so light and the gears are so close together that you need to shift really fast compared to other cars in regular traffic. It's fun once in a while but it would get old if I needed to do it every day.

My f80 M3 was probably the easiest manual car I've driven. It felt like it had anti stall off the line, the auto rev matching made commuting effortless, and also being rwd there was not much shift shock if you didn't get the revs perfect like for example shifting faster than the revs could drop.

My STI is very brutal with AWD, aggressive gearing, and no rev matching. While it's a riot to drive, at this point I think I would have preferred a dual clutch in a different car. I'm also glad this is not my daily driver. I still love and enjoy it but I think a dct is a better fit for AWD based on my experience.

In my opinion, I think you need to narrow down what car you really want first, and then decide what transmission is best for you. Most modern manuals have auto rev matching so it takes much less effort to drive than manuals from even 10 years ago. I currently have 2 manuals in my garage, so I'm not exactly aligning with my own advice, but I'd say only get the manual if you really want one. At least the newer cars make it significantly less effort.

[jkoral]

I've driven a BMW manual since 1996 and plan to keep buying manual as long as I can. It's slower, but more engaging. I don't derive a paycheck from my lap times or the red light drag strip, so it makes no difference to me. I've daily driven all my manuals and never tired, or regretted it, even in stop and go traffic (Boston area) - although since covid-19, my M2 has sat in the garage since March 2020.

When BMW no longer offers a manual, I would consider switching brands. But with the G87 LCI ending production in Spring 2029, I should be able to keep driving BMW manuals to at least 2035 (I keep my cars a long time).

BTW, I taught my wife to drive manual and she enjoys it. She bought a manual for her next car (back in 1997). She has only driven my car on very rare occasions (once per year, if that).

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Manual yes, the only problem with your options is that only one of those cars actually have a good manual transmission. BMW manuals are not the best, especially the newer ones, the tremec gearbox in the Caddy is a lot better, the BMW will require modding to make it better, and the face is well… you know.

If there's space in the garage for a third car, then Miata is Always the Answer (or even now BRZ/86).

Yeah the caddy is a strong contender but it's going to depend on pricing and availability. I'm not opposed to the face of the g80 and actually sort of like it in person. But I'll have to drive the 6mt... if I ever get a chance to prior to playing an order.

There is space for a 3rd car in the garage... and I've been VERY tempted by a miata or gr86 or even an older elise/exige.

But.... that space is reserved for the prancing horse... so I guess you could say there isn't space in my budget. I have a life long goal of owning a ferrari.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

There is space for a 3rd car in the garage... and I've been VERY tempted by a miata or gr86 or even an older elise/exige.

But.... that space is reserved for the prancing horse... so I guess you could say there isn't space in my budget. I have a life long goal of owning a ferrari.

Doesn't have to be a new Miata. A cheap old NA or NB Miata is plenty of joy, and best of all, unlike all of the new cars, is fun at legal speeds too, and they're pretty inexpensive on maintenance. My eldest has had his NB for 10 years now and he loves it, he's never getting rid of it.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by ntg44

In my opinion it depends on the car.

My 09 WRX with AWD, no low end torque and long gears was pretty annoying to drive in anything but long highway stretches. The shift shock was also pretty intense if you didn't match the rpm very well due to the AWD.

My 350z was fine, rwd has less shift shock than AWD so you don't need to be right on the money every shift, there's a little more give.

In my R8 the flywheel is so light and the gears are so close together that you need to shift really fast compared to other cars in regular traffic. It's fun once in a while but it would get old if I needed to do it every day.

My f80 M3 was probably the easiest manual car I've driven. It felt like it had anti stall off the line, the auto rev matching made commuting effortless, and also being rwd there was not much shift shock if you didn't get the revs perfect like for example shifting faster than the revs could drop.

My STI is very brutal with AWD, aggressive gearing, and no rev matching. While it's a riot to drive, at this point I think I would have preferred a dual clutch in a different car. I'm also glad this is not my daily driver. I still love and enjoy it but I think a dct is a better fit for AWD based on my experience.

In my opinion, I think you need to narrow down what car you really want first, and then decide what transmission is best for you. Most modern manuals have auto rev matching so it takes much less effort to drive than manuals from even 10 years ago. I currently have 2 manuals in my garage, so I'm not exactly aligning with my own advice, but I'd say only get the manual if you really want one. At least the newer cars make it significantly less effort.

Awesome perspective, thanks for that. Yeah my list is pretty much g80, g87, or ct4v bw. I don't know of any other luxury sport cars with at least semi usable backseats that also come in a manual.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by jkoral

BTW, I taught my wife to drive manual and she enjoys it. She bought a manual for her next car (back in 1997). She has only driven my car on very rare occasions (once per year, if that).

My wife scoffs at the idea of even mentioning learning to drive stick . She enjoys her super cushy SUV riding on air suspension, smooth shifting automatic, and massaging seats. She's the definition of a driver who would prefer to do anything but driving. She drove my g20 once in sport+ mode and it absolutely terrified her.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

Doesn't have to be a new Miata. A cheap old NA or NB Miata is plenty of joy, and best of all, unlike all of the new cars, is fun at legal speeds too, and they're pretty inexpensive on maintenance. My eldest has had his NB for 10 years now and he loves it, he's never getting rid of it.

I've spent many hours perusing used car listings because of that very temptation. The psychological blocker for me always ends up being.... spending money on this is potentially money that could be put towards my Ferrari fund. I get that there's low depreciation (maybe even appreciation in today's crazy market) and I could probably eventually sell it for roughly how much I bought it for, but all the other little things like maintenance, potential repairs, insurance, etc are costs that could be put towards that eventual Ferrari.

The other issue with me getting a 2-seater sports car right now is that I have a 4 year old and a new baby on the way, and my wife works a lot of weekends, meaning it's just me and the kids on those weekends. So I'd have VERY limited opportunity to actually enjoy that 3rd car until my kids grow up.

For those reasons I'm mixing business and pleasure for this daily. Eventually when my kids are grown and I am able to enjoy that 3rd car, I can downgrade my primary daily to something like a cushy base 5 series.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Onesie

I second what F30 said.

And to add: you'll never know if you truly like it and will live with it forever like we manual-lovers will. I was taught in a manual, have driven manuals exclusively for many many years until I had my first automatic rental, it was a novelty and I didn't even know how to operate well (it didn't take long to "learn" as you can imagine lol)

I say YOLO, you're going to die not knowing? Buy the manual, if you can't live with it sell it.

If you buy the right car, it'd be even easier to sell.

My manual E90 was such an easy sale because of its exclusivity. Even commanded a 50% higher price than autos…

Yeah the YOLO is strong with this one because this may be one of my last chances to get a new manual car before they go extinct (I know I can always buy used but I love having a brand new car).

[Germanauto]

Maybe just use the wife's X5 for family duties. That opens up your shopping list to a lot more cars than just the three? stick shift sedans currently in production.

CT4 will be the best bang for your buck MT sedan.

[yousefnjr]

Originally Posted by Frank851

Sir:
Z4M's only come with a 6 speed manual, you have no choice, do you?

+1, one of the all-time greats and such a feast for the senses. Doesn’t really make practical sense in your situation but emotional decisions don’t always need to lol. Used to do Costco runs in mine when my kids were born, no regrets.

[AlpineBoost]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

It's not that I have doubts. I just don't know what "long term" ownership is like, which is why I'm asking. The handful of times that I have driven manual I've enjoyed it - I was just wondering if that enjoyment would last over the course of multiple years or if there's something I'm missing or not considering. Kind of a "yeah manual cars are a lot of fun but after a while you just kind of get tired of it".

But since you're a lifer, it seems that may not be the case. I'm truly coming at this without a bias. It's hard to have doubts when I don't have the experience. Rather, it's curiosity and interest.

For me the enjoyment has lasted from age 15 until the present, not near as long as some people, but almost 23 years. Every car I've owned for myself has been either 5mt or 6mt and I wouldn't have it any other way. I've probably missed out on some damn good cars by being so stubborn about it but oh well.

At some point it became so organic for me that the last thing I'm thinking about in the worst traffic possible has anything to do with shifting. For some people it may bother them for 5 minutes, others can drive manual for 50 years and it still bothers them, so I guess we're all different in that regard. Oddly after so long I think it becomes one of those things that you really enjoy doing, but it's so routine that you don't even realize you're doing it at the same time.

Honestly, when I get in to drive an automatic my left foot hits the floor every time reaching for a pedal that's not there, and at that moment I realize just how bad the drive is going to suck

I'm currently teaching a 28 year old how to drive manual, and to me you're never too young or to old to start learning. Well maybe very young and very old people shouldn't be driving at all, but you know what I mean.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

Maybe just use the wife's X5 for family duties.

That's a dangerous suggestion before you know it I'll end up with the x5 as my daily.

If my wife didn't work that would be the way to go. But she'll take the x5 to work and I'll be shuttling the kids to/from school, so unfortunately I do need a semi-usable backseat. But trust me once my kids are grown I'll make sure to remind them the hardship they caused me

I've tried getting creative... like could I fit them in the back seats of an Evora? Technically yes... but my wife would totally vetoe that in the name of child abuse. So unfortunately an M2 is about as small as I can get, and even that would require a bit of convincing.

[grannyknot]

This,

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by grannyknot

This,

LOL point taken

[Tambohamilton]

Originally Posted by grannyknot

This,

Are you calling my partner a man??

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by jkoral

I've driven a BMW manual since 1996 and plan to keep buying manual as long as I can. It's slower, but more engaging. I don't derive a paycheck from my lap times or the red light drag strip, so it makes no difference to me. I've daily driven all my manuals and never tired, or regretted it, even in stop and go traffic (Boston area) - although since covid-19, my M2 has sat in the garage since March 2020.

When BMW no longer offers a manual, I would consider switching brands. But with the G87 LCI ending production in Spring 2029, I should be able to keep driving BMW manuals to at least 2035 (I keep my cars a long time).

BTW, I taught my wife to drive manual and she enjoys it. She bought a manual for her next car (back in 1997). She has only driven my car on very rare occasions (once per year, if that).

Concur. I've been driving BMW manuals for 25+ years. My wife drives an automatic (also BMW) which I sometimes drive and the difference is night and day in terms of driver engagement. I also don't give a flying hoot about 0-60 times at the lights or the track.

As for driving in traffic with a manual - piece of cake 99.5% of the time. You have to pace and leave some room, time your clutch engagement/disengagement, coast, and you're fine. The only times where it was worse is when in very heavy traffic AND you're going uphill. That's no fun because you end up have to ride the clutch some of the time or you'll roll back (Hill Assist helps). But hills are rare in Toronto, so no biggie.

I also concur with stein_325i about the Caddy Blackwing. I'll have to do a test drive but all reports say they have the better manual and better driver engagement versus the G8x manual. I have never considered any Caddy before in my life but with BMW driving more like Lexus these days and the horrendous design of the G8x, my F80 (manual) will likely be my last BMW for some time.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

It's not that I have doubts. I just don't know what "long term" ownership is like, which is why I'm asking. The handful of times that I have driven manual I've enjoyed it - I was just wondering if that enjoyment would last over the course of multiple years or if there's something I'm missing or not considering. Kind of a "yeah manual cars are a lot of fun but after a while you just kind of get tired of it".

But since you're a lifer, it seems that may not be the case. I'm truly coming at this without a bias. It's hard to have doubts when I don't have the experience. Rather, it's curiosity and interest.

I said at this point with the automatic transmission somewhat improved regarding shift quality and gear quantities (we have 8 and 10 speed automatics now for regular street cars as common equipment), deciding to use a manual transmission is a lifestyle choice. If you are not willing to commit to lifestyle change (i.e. using a manual transmission for a daily driver), then the "long term" experience is not going to be satisfactory.

You are asking a question that only you can really answer, and you can't answer it until you get some experience with daily driving a manual transmission under your belt. No one here can answer that question for you. As Trambo said, and I've said, if you have to ask, then the better choice is best to stay with an automatic. I explicitly asked you several questions tied to how people who are not dedicated manual transmission daily drivers view the manual/automatic diversity. Review those questions. Again, only you can answer them.

Just trying to help.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I said at this point with the automatic transmission somewhat improved regarding shift quality and gear quantities (we have 8 and 10 speed automatics now for regular street cars as common equipment), deciding to use a manual transmission is a lifestyle choice. If you are not willing to commit to lifestyle change (i.e. using a manual transmission for a daily driver), then the "long term" experience is not going to be satisfactory.

You are asking a question that only you can really answer, and you can't answer it until you get some experience with daily driving a manual transmission under your belt. No one here can answer that question for you. As Trambo said, and I've said, if you have to ask, then the better choice is best to stay with an automatic. I explicitly asked you several questions tied to how people who are not dedicated manual transmission daily drivers view the manual/automatic diversity. Review those questions. Again, only you can answer them.

Just trying to help.

I appreciate the input. The point of me asking the question is not to get a definitive yes/no answer (yes, I know, I set up a poll and asked a yes/no question), but to gain perspective that I currently don't have. 100% understand those are other people's perspectives, but they're better than no perspective at all outside of the handful of times I've driven a manual car.

I think the fact that I'm asking the question to begin with means I'm willing to commit to a lifestyle change. If I wasn't then I'd have literally no reason to create this post.

But to answer your questions:
- Automatics being faster is a combination of the car and the driver doing the shifting. As a novice, I'd fully expect an equivalent auto to easily outperform me rowing my own gears. That being said, it's a VERY small con for me if at all. After a certain point incremental increases in speed just don't matter anymore, else I'd have ended up in a Tesla by now.

- I'm not really worried about heavy traffic since I don't experience that on a normal basis, but gaining perspective for people who have is valuable input for me.

- Being fully engaged with the act of driving sounds amazing. Do I want to be fully engaged 100% of the time? It's very hard for me to answer that... inclination is to say yes, but again this is where gaining people's perspective comes into play (i.e. do you sometimes get tired of it, or is it something which makes you look forward to it every time you sit in the car)

- Shifting a "manumatic" is nowhere near the same as a true manual.

I'm not 100% relying on an online forum to help answer this for me.. I'm being proactive (at least I think I am). I just set up a rental for an Evo X for a few days next week to see how I like driving it around my hood for some additional perspective. I'll report back how it makes me feel.