[SW17LS]

Originally Posted by carseatsm5

I wasn’t intending this to be a lease vs. buy thread. I was questioning why BMW drivers lease more than any others. No judgment from me.

Unfortunately any discussion like this always turns into a lease vs buy debate lol

Originally Posted by kudos

Rental economy is slavery and people who lease are just slaves with no ownership of anything. People rent furniture, rent electronics, rent vehicles, the list goes on these days. If you can't afford why do you have it?

You assign somebody like me not owning a car and instead leasing (or renting, same thing) cars as being because I can't own the car. I can, I can buy any car I want.

For you owning a car is important, for me its meaningless. I own things that go up in value, I have no interest in owning a car that loses $1,500 a month in value. I can take that $120,000 and do something with it that will make money, not lose money.

You and I are on different planets.

[Diesel power]

The arguments where people try to dunk on leasers while they "own" something that eventually goes to being worth 0 is always funny to me. Congratulations on owning a 7 year old car with "no payments" that will still cost you thousands a year in maintenance. I'll take my new car every 3 years with the option to buy it for a little bit more if I really fall in love with it.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by Diesel power

The arguments where people try to dunk on leasers while they "own" something that eventually goes to being worth 0 is always funny to me. Congratulations on owning a 7 year old car with "no payments" that will still cost you thousands a year in maintenance. I'll take my new car every 3 years with the option to buy it for a little bit more if I really fall in love with it.

Lmao,

Cars are one of the worst investments on earth, especially new ones. It's a pure pleasure fee.

Choosing not to lease in scenarios where it hurts your pockets the least is just silly.

[AiredaleDad]

Originally Posted by NYG

I don't really understand people who are completely shocked at the entire concept of leasing. It's not that complicated. The whole "rent" and "borrow" thing is meaningless because you're borrowing money from a bank to finance the car in either scenario and your mileage will impact your cars value regardless. You can buy out a lease if you want to especially if the car has equity and make money on it, I've done it so many times. It's not a financial flex to say you're financing 100k at 8% instead of financing a car's depreciation.

I've leased, financed, and cash purchased cars when it made sense.

Being able to get into a new BMW every 3 years before the warranty expires and the car's value drops to $dick is great, especially if you use it for work.

It all depends on the residual, lease programs, money factors, market and car.

There's no ideal scenario for every case.

Not necessarily. Not everyone has to borrow from a bank to purchase a new car. And there are also some good interest rates if your credit is good enough. I don't normally buy cash. I tend to put down about 50%. That way, along with my credit rating I can secure the best interest rate, Pay it off sooner, and not tie up as much cash into something that will depreciate anyway. I want my money to make more money. Not lose more of it. If I can put the other $40K to make more than the interest rate on my loan, I can recover some of the loss of buying a new car.

BMW cars attract a certain type of individual. It's so popular because it is well built, Sporty, exciting to drive, and because to most people, it symbolizes success. It is a symbol of how high they have come in life. They want to be seen driving it, showing it to their friends and feeling respected and envied by their peers. It says you are not boring, and are willing to pay the price to get what you want. All those things and more. It is more car than the average person can hope to reach. Most who can't get one, want one. Even if they say they don't. The more discerning people custom order instead of selecting a stock vehicle from the dealer. They want those extra options the dealers don't order because it would make the car harder to sell. They are willing to pay the higher price to get what they want.

The lease is so much more popular because that way BMW gets to move more cars. It extends the customer base. People who cannot afford to buy it, but can afford to lease can still reach the driver's seat. As long as they are leasing it it is still "their car" It's nobody's business when they see them driving down the road whether it is leased or purchased. There are no special license plates that say "Hi. Leased car here." And they take as much pride in their car as you or I do.

Yes, there are some people that just want a new car every 3 years, and don't want the hassle of selling or negotiating a trade. But that is the exception, not the rule, I feel. I could be wrong, but I believe most personal Lessees (Not Corporate) would buy it if they could. And there is also a lot to be said about the corporate leases. Companies can write it off, and their executives get a solid luxury Sport Sedan, that will be under warranty the duration of their lease. It's part of their image. It says the company is successful enough it can provide these cars to their top people. I bet when they give an allowance, instead of the car itself, see what the top people have. It says something about who they have working for them to all the competition.

That said, I once moved into a neighborhood in St. John's County in Florida. Near St. Augustine. When the neighbors came to introduce themselves they smilingly asked if we had bought the house, then changed it to a sneer and added "Or are you Renting?" I calmly told them we had purchased the house. And that they were welcome because I probably raised their property value. They continued to be friendly to me. I noticed later, how they never associated with renters in the same neighborhood. Now, this was in 2005, right before the real estate market crash in 2007. That's how I found out that most of these people, were flippers. They all had sub-prime "Interest only" mortgages for 5 years. Then they would sell the house for a profit right before the principal payments kicked in at 5 years and move on to another Sub-Prime. They would then invest the profits for a higher down payment. The goal was to do this a few times until they could buy a home outright for cash and not have to worry about a mortgage. All of them got stuck when the market crashed and couldn't sell the houses. Almost all of them foreclosed when the principal kicked in or the balloon payment was due. I found that my home had lost considerable value overnight. But since I was on a conventional fixed rate, it did not affect me long term.

The moral of this story is: Don't knock Lessees. Everyone has their own reasons. Personal or corporate. Everyone deserves to reach however far as they can. If they want to drive a BMW, don't look down on them just because it makes you feel superior. I certainly don't. I would rather be friends with an honest "Lessee" than a snobbish owner. Oh, this is a general statement. Not knocking you NYG. Sorry if it looks that way.

[MineralWhiteF80]

Leasing and buying brand new cars are both "pay-to-use" costs. Sometimes, leasing is cheaper, and sometimes, buying is cheaper assuming the length of ownership is the same. There is no single correct answer here. It all varies on brand, car, and terms.

For example:
Our lease on our 2021 M550i just ended. MSRP was $85,600. Our lease payment was $806 a month. The car is now for sale at the dealership for $53,000 and will probably sell for 51-52k. If I had paid cash for the car outright, I would have spent several thousand more dollars than I would have leasing it for 3 years. However, the longer I owned the car, the more paying cash would tip the scales as the better option.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by AiredaleDad

Not necessarily. Not everyone has to borrow from a bank to purchase a new car. And there are also some good interest rates if your credit is good enough. I don't normally buy cash. I tend to put down about 50%. That way, along with my credit rating I can secure the best interest rate, Pay it off sooner, and not tie up as much cash into something that will depreciate anyway. I want my money to make more money. Not lose more of it. If I can put the other $40K to make more than the interest rate on my loan, I can recover some of the loss of buying a new car.

BMW cars attract a certain type of individual. It's so popular because it is well built, Sporty, exciting to drive, and because to most people, it symbolizes success. It is a symbol of how high they have come in life. They want to be seen driving it, showing it to their friends and feeling respected and envied by their peers. It says you are not boring, and are willing to pay the price to get what you want. All those things and more. It is more car than the average person can hope to reach. Most who can't get one, want one. Even if they say they don't. The more discerning people custom order instead of selecting a stock vehicle from the dealer. They want those extra options the dealers don't order because it would make the car harder to sell. They are willing to pay the higher price to get what they want.

The lease is so much more popular because that way BMW gets to move more cars. It extends the customer base. People who cannot afford to buy it, but can afford to lease can still reach the driver's seat. As long as they are leasing it it is still "their car" It's nobody's business when they see them driving down the road whether it is leased or purchased. There are no special license plates that say "Hi. Leased car here." And they take as much pride in their car as you or I do.

Yes, there are some people that just want a new car every 3 years, and don't want the hassle of selling or negotiating a trade. But that is the exception, not the rule, I feel. I could be wrong, but I believe most personal Lessees (Not Corporate) would buy it if they could. And there is also a lot to be said about the corporate leases. Companies can write it off, and their executives get a solid luxury Sport Sedan, that will be under warranty the duration of their lease. It's part of their image. It says the company is successful enough it can provide these cars to their top people. I bet when they give an allowance, instead of the car itself, see what the top people have. It says something about who they have working for them to all the competition.

That said, I once moved into a neighborhood in St. John's County in Florida. Near St. Augustine. When the neighbors came to introduce themselves they smilingly asked if we had bought the house, then changed it to a sneer and added "Or are you Renting?" I calmly told them we had purchased the house. And that they were welcome because I probably raised their property value. They continued to be friendly to me. I noticed later, how they never associated with renters in the same neighborhood. Now, this was in 2005, right before the real estate market crash in 2007. That's how I found out that most of these people, were flippers. They all had sub-prime "Interest only" mortgages for 5 years. Then they would sell the house for a profit right before the principal payments kicked in at 5 years and move on to another Sub-Prime. They would then invest the profits for a higher down payment. The goal was to do this a few times until they could buy a home outright for cash and not have to worry about a mortgage. All of them got stuck when the market crashed and couldn't sell the houses. Almost all of them foreclosed when the principal kicked in or the balloon payment was due. I found that my home had lost considerable value overnight. But since I was on a conventional fixed rate, it did not affect me long term.

The moral of this story is: Don't knock Lessees. Everyone has their own reasons. Personal or corporate. Everyone deserves to reach however far as they can. If they want to drive a BMW, don't look down on them just because it makes you feel superior. I certainly don't. I would rather be friends with an honest "Lessee" than a snobbish owner. Oh, this is a general statement. Not knocking you NYG. Sorry if it looks that way.

No offense taken.

Like I said, I've bought cars cash, I've financed and leased a bunch of times before. I just do whatever makes sense financially as I'd rather spend/invest it elsewhere. So I'm not in disagreement with your general statement.

[leocce]

Originally Posted by kudos

Rental economy is slavery and people who lease are just slaves with no ownership of anything. People rent furniture, rent electronics, rent vehicles, the list goes on these days. If you can't afford why do you have it?

why do you even care?.. let people drive whatever they wanna drive.. jeez... world would be a better place if people would mind their own business.

[kwickag]

Originally Posted by mjj

Forgive me father, as I have committed multiple financial sins.

I purchase, not lease.

I pay cash instead of taking a loan and investing for higher returns.

If I don’t enjoy the car, I don’t drive it 10 years to maximize the value. I get rid of it.

To each their own. I don’t judge others.

MJJ

Me too, I used to lease, and it was good for me then. Now I pay cash. When it comes to trading in, in this state the sales tax is a little over 10% and you don't pay tax on the trade in value, just the net. So, you get a 10% bump on your trade in and no hassle. Everyone's situation is different. Mine now gives me the ability to have the car I want when I want and not worry about financing.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by carseatsm5

Came across this article (could be bad data) that says BMW drivers lease more than any other brand (77% in 2022 vs. 20% for car market overall). What about the buyer base or brand is driving this dynamic?

Was searching on the topic since there’s so much discussion around here about new models (G90 currently) that the new design won’t sell or is breaking sales records (G80). But how valid is a “sale” when virtually no one is actually buying these cars?

Just something to consider.

https://cartelligent.com/which-car-b...20car%20leases

BMW used to heavily subsidize their leases and yet enjoys industry leading margins by selling cars twice (New and then as CPO). This has been their sales model for over 20 years

Serial leases are their wheelhouse. The vast majority of owners can't afford post warranty repairs and BMW doesn't care. If their cars ended up in the junkyard at 7 yrs of age BMW would not care.

The only reason they don't is because the luxury segment requires that they build better than cheaper make so their cars actually cosmetically are better upwards of a decade or later.

Mechanically BMW has nothing to gain by packaging cars which are easier/cheaper to repair.

Ponder this for a moment. Why after 40-50 years BMW has not been able to build an engine which doesn't start leaking oil at around 50k miles?

[iX nOOky]

The more I think about it the more I think I should lease one. I have money to pay cash, but have always been frugal, so to plop down 80k for a car that depreciates rapidly is against my better judgement. That 80k could be earning me money somewhere else. Leasing it for 3-4 years might be close to a wash financially within reason. But I would say there is still the perception out there that a BMW is expensive to fix and maintain especially out of warranty, and if you like a new vehicle every few years it's the way to go.

I have owned Fords and other brands and even the wife's Lexus has crappy depreciation as soon as we drove it off the lot. I would be buying this because I want a more luxurious and sporty vehicle versus a Toyota Highlander or Mazda CX-70.

I'm still on the fence because I am waiting to test drive an Explorer ST which is about 20k cheaper than a comparably equipped X5 and has little things like power folding seats and the keypad on the door to lock my keys in the vehicle while I am out running etc.

[SW17LS]

Originally Posted by Diesel power

The arguments where people try to dunk on leasers while they "own" something that eventually goes to being worth 0 is always funny to me. Congratulations on owning a 7 year old car with "no payments" that will still cost you thousands a year in maintenance. I'll take my new car every 3 years with the option to buy it for a little bit more if I really fall in love with it.

LOL, exactly

[SW17LS]

Originally Posted by kwickag

Me too, I used to lease, and it was good for me then. Now I pay cash. When it comes to trading in, in this state the sales tax is a little over 10% and you don't pay tax on the trade in value, just the net. So, you get a 10% bump on your trade in and no hassle. Everyone's situation is different. Mine now gives me the ability to have the car I want when I want and not worry about financing.

I lease and also trade in. I have never turned a car in, I have always traded in. BMW that’s hard because the residuals are inflated. We also get the sales tax credit on trade ins in MD and we have to pay tax on the whole car even with a lease.

The right opportunity to trade always reveals itself. Worst case I break even, I have also made money. Never have to worry about mileage or repairs etc.

[Rux]

Originally Posted by Ginster6

for business write off. and able to get new vehicle every 3 years.

This.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Diesel power

The arguments where people try to dunk on leasers while they "own" something that eventually goes to being worth 0 is always funny to me. Congratulations on owning a 7 year old car with "no payments" that will still cost you thousands a year in maintenance. I'll take my new car every 3 years with the option to buy it for a little bit more if I really fall in love with it.

What's funny to me is this whole concept someone long ago made up that cars are "investments". They are not financial investments and never have been. Rather, cars are a transportation tool. They are an appliance. Using the cost-per-mile as the financial metric, in general owning a car for an extended time period and extended miles is less expensive than leasing every 3 years. The cost-per-mile is the only metric to use to evaluate the cost of a vehicle because it standardizes the unit of measure regardless of vehicle type or method of acquisition. My 18-year old E90 has cost me just 31 cents per mile. If I were to drop $2,000 in maintenance this year, which I may do, it will increase my cost-per-mile by just 0.47-cents per mile. Peanuts.

[kudos]

Originally Posted by leocce

why do you even care?.. let people drive whatever they wanna drive.. jeez... world would be a better place if people would mind their own business.

It's literally what this thread is titled. Can you read?

[kudos]

Originally Posted by SW17LS

Unfortunately any discussion like this always turns into a lease vs buy debate lol



You assign somebody like me not owning a car and instead leasing (or renting, same thing) cars as being because I can't own the car. I can, I can buy any car I want.

For you owning a car is important, for me its meaningless. I own things that go up in value, I have no interest in owning a car that loses $1,500 a month in value. I can take that $120,000 and do something with it that will make money, not lose money.

You and I are on different planets.

You will forever pay an inflated price for eternity. Maintenance for cars really isn't that much per a year as long as you take care of them. This idea maintaining an owned card is somehow equivalent to someone paying a stupid monthly lease payment is laughable. Justify it however you want in the end someone who owns long term comes out far ahead financially.

None of this is even factoring the enjoyable experience of modifications which good luck on a leased car. You could do it I guess, but more money down the drain when you turn it back in.

[leocce]

Originally Posted by kudos

It's literally what this thread is titled. Can you read?

you obviously cant..

"Rental economy is slavery and people who lease are just slaves with no ownership of anything. People rent furniture, rent electronics, rent vehicles, the list goes on these days. If you can't afford why do you have it?"

do you know me?..do you know if I can or cannot afford the damn car?.. so Im a slave because I decided to lease?.. so if I lease i cant afford?.. Lol bro.. just be quiet.

[RigaTony1982]

I purchased my Z4 last year, but had been leasing for the previous 15 years or so. Decided to buy because the leases weren’t great on this car.

I like to get something new or different every couple of years, so leasing made sense. Seems a little easier to me than buying then selling after 3 years and having to worry about something like an accident hurting the value.

[mjr24]

Originally Posted by NYG

I don't really understand people who are completely shocked at the entire concept of leasing. It's not that complicated. The whole "rent" and "borrow" thing is meaningless because you're borrowing money from a bank to finance the car in either scenario and your mileage will impact your cars value regardless. You can buy out a lease if you want to especially if the car has equity and make money on it, I've done it so many times. It's not a financial flex to say you're financing 100k at 8% instead of financing a car's depreciation.

I've leased, financed, and cash purchased cars when it made sense.

Being able to get into a new BMW every 3 years before the warranty expires and the car's value drops to $dick is great, especially if you use it for work.

It all depends on the residual, lease programs, money factors, market and car.

There's no ideal scenario for every case.

Let’s be honest. All these dipshits trashing leasing are working for the man at their jobs. It’s about business write offs. They don’t have a clue….

[mjr24]

Originally Posted by kudos

You will forever pay an inflated price for eternity. Maintenance for cars really isn't that much per a year as long as you take care of them. This idea maintaining an owned card is somehow equivalent to someone paying a stupid monthly lease payment is laughable. Justify it however you want in the end someone who owns long term comes out far ahead financially.

None of this is even factoring the enjoyable experience of modifications which good luck on a leased car. You could do it I guess, but more money down the drain when you turn it back in.

And you will forever be paying post tax dollars on your car whereas most people leading are paying pre tax dollars (that’s if you can comprehend).

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by mjr24

Let’s be honest. All these dipshits trashing leasing are working for the man at their jobs. It’s about business write offs. They don’t have a clue….

You are talking about business leasing vs. personal leasing.

[UPSROD]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

What's funny to me is this whole concept someone long ago made up that cars are "investments". They are not financial investments and never have been. Rather, cars are a transportation tool. They are an appliance. Using the cost-per-mile as the financial metric, in general owning a car for an extended time period and extended miles is less expensive than leasing every 3 years. The cost-per-mile is the only metric to use to evaluate the cost of a vehicle because it standardizes the unit of measure regardless of vehicle type or method of acquisition. My 18-year old E90 has cost me just 31 cents per mile. If I were to drop $2,000 in maintenance this year, which I may do, it will increase my cost-per-mile by just 0.47-cents per mile. Peanuts.

I have actually owned three cars that did become investments and I drove them! 1968 Camaro Z/28, 1967 Corvette and 2003 Porsche 996 Twin Turbo!