[arabbmw]

I think BMW is getting soft basically. Before, i used to think the 7 series was the only real luxury bimmer. The old 3 the old 5 and even back to the 8 series all had a sense of hardness to them. This touch of unrefined design with hard lines and sharper edges. All the cars in the BMW stable line are more curvy now and more human. Thats not what I want in a BMW. I want a machine, a machine that is made to drive and make me feel like i am part of that machine while driving it.

Does anyone get what im saying?

[jhcao1472]

Just to clarify, i meant sensors for oil level, break pads, brake fluids, etc. I am fine with certain gadgetries that increases the efficiency of the engine, but sensors will break over time.

[grumpybear]

Originally Posted by arabbmw

I think BMW is getting soft basically. Before, i used to think the 7 series was the only real luxury bimmer. The old 3 the old 5 and even back to the 8 series all had a sense of hardness to them. This touch of unrefined design with hard lines and sharper edges. All the cars in the BMW stable line are more curvy now and more human. Thats not what I want in a BMW. I want a machine, a machine that is made to drive and make me feel like i am part of that machine while driving it.

Does anyone get what im saying?

Yes, alot of people get what you're saying. The problem is BMW doesn't seem to be listening anymore.

[Tallest]

GM becoming old BMW? Not in million years, that's nonsense. The built quality of GM is a joke. US manufacturers by large wiht their efficiency levels, engine technology is stuck 10 years ago and even Chrysler never managed to catch up despte all that Benz injections. BMW is BMW and who ever drives the new one or old one can recognize that blood is the same.

Sure cars are heavier and more powerful and more luxurious today, but that's not a bad thing - besides so much of the outcome is government by ever increasing safety regulations hence you get a bigger car, needing more powerful engine, etc, etc. And 3 or 5 series or even 7 series is a drivers chassis, unlike Merc or Audis. Those guys are actually much more trying to appeal to large crowd.

[titaniume90]

Ummmm, I like my BMW. Had an E46, I think the E90 is better. I will continue to drive bmw's until someone makes something that has that BMW something that attracts me to them. The CTS, give me a break, it drives like a GM. I'm a fan of GM products, but they are engineered and drive 100 percent the opposite of what I am looking for. BMW has an overall dynamic that I have seen very few auto makers pinpoint, they have a certain presence on the road that I just really don't feel with other cars.


Drive a DTS, then drive a 7-series.
Drive a CTS then drive a 3-series
Drive a corvette then drive an M3

Bmw got their engineering down about 40 or 50 years ago, and they have been fine tuning and improving their basic engineering since then. The cars haven't changed much, they have naturally evolved as technological innovations have come along. Other companies are having to redifine their platforms and start from scratch just to catch up to number one.

[John 070]

I would think the CTS4 is a 335xi competitor, not a 535xi competitor. That's what the STS4 is.

BMW is what it is. It's a car that's relatively expensive for what you get, but does everything well. If you don't need all that then an Infiniti would more than do, as would a CTS which looks nice. Even the new M3 didn't come in #1 in the comparo, it's a weakling in the torque dept to the C63.

Kia has a new TT car coming, 295 HP called the Koup. Imagine that. I'm sure it will smoke a 335 in many ways, esp. in the price dept (one of those would you rather have 3 Kias with 295 hp or 1 335).

[mfstout]

I think the latest version of BMW's coupe, the e92, is the best 3 ever. I think it is definitely an enthusiasts car. Just because you don't bounce all over the road and get your kidneys knocked out, that doesn't make it a mass-market car. This car is more intuitive and more amazing to drive than any other 3 I've ever been in. The mags can write whatever they want. I think GM sucks. I'm glad they're getting better, but GM has about a thousand years before it'll ever be BMW. Good post though. Great topic for discussion.

[mark1996]

I have owned every small BMW since the early seventies which includes a couple of 2002's(one was a tii), a few 320i's, e30, e36, e46 and now a e90. I have very good memories of boxy designs, sunroofs with a well built metal hand crank and simple but effective roll up windows and simple gauges.

But, it is easy to glamorize the past. I drove a 2002tii recently and was amazed with the noise, the slow steering, the weak brakes, and the unsupportive seats. The new BMW's are so much better. It is amazing to get 300 hp out of a car that can get 20 mpg overall.

It would be nice if BMW sold a 335i with roll up windows, a manual sunroof and perhaps a two speaker stereo instead of the million watt, 18 or whatever speaker stereo system. But, only a few of us old guys would buy one. BMW knows this and they want to make money. We, as consumers, tell BMW what we want.

BMW is now all about marketing. Just look at the new M3 and compare it to the e30 M3. One was built in the marketing department and one was built for homologation purposes so BMW could race it.

[BMWI6]

Originally Posted by xT4iw4n3zx

+1

If I had the choice of a brand new off the factory line e46 M3, I'd take it in a heartbeat compared to the new M3. The new M3, although gorgeous, just doesn't have that same appeal as the old M3 did. It's hard to pin point where it lossed the "magic touch" that just made your heart beat crazy everytime you walked around it. Maybe it's just me, but whenever I walk around the new M3, there's nothing that makes me wanna leap out and buy the thing without hesistation that I will be 100% satisfied.

As for Mercedes and Audi. Oh boy do they have some nice looking cars out right now. The tailights on the Audi make me go "Damn, now those are some nicely designed tailights". You can tell that Audi spent some consideration into making them. The e90 tailights are like "hmm, take the old tailights, wedge it in the side, put lines thru em, DONE". And that Mercedes C-Class is like WOW!!! Now that thing was built with some PASSION in the design. You take a 3er sedan and a new C-class, and you compare them look wise, i think it's hard to say that you wouldn't spend a long time considering which sedan to get.

1000000000+
Its like if you read my mind... I would take an e46 over an e90 m3 in a sec. and as for the audi tailights, they are gorgeous, and as for the c-class it has so much passion it isnt even funny. It looks like if it cost $80,000. BMW is going down, and it is sad since I was a little kid I considered myself an extreme BMW enthisiast. I remember a time where I would have taken a an e46 m3 almost any car in the world, my firends even laughed at me when I said I would take the m3 over the old cl55 amg. now i would take the cl over the new m3 without question. Old BMW FTW. New BMW FTL!!

[M4TW]

Naw, BMW is still the one.

Regarding styling, there is no pleasing the enthusiast crowd - comprised of stalwarts who think the e30 to be the epitome of automobile design and the Versace’s who want something a bit more avant-garde. BMW is a nicely balanced design. It's like a well-tailored suit - it always looks smart. I like that.

Regarding performance, it is still the benchmark. Look at Toyota, flushed with success and its stellar reputation for reliability, can't, after applying all the brute engineering force is can muster, come up with a car to match the M3. The IS-F has lost every single driving comparison to it. I guess sweeping up so many world engine awards portends of a motor company on the decline.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud some of the great cars coming out of GM these days. It used to be that the American car companies were run by visionaries who never let accountants (or anyone else) stand in the way of their grand designs. I really wonder if most of the people in charge these days actually give a sh*t about cars. But like Dylan said, the times, they are changing.

[stressdoc]

Bizarre thread.

One can only hope that GM will improve its management culture to the point where it can make the kinds of engineering achievements that BMW does.

But most of the posts here are more about 'style' than engineering. The heart and soul of BMW is building the best 4-door performance sedans for the European driving environment. I don't think they've designed a 'pretty' car (I mean that in a positive way) since the 507. But they continue to build the best sedans in the world for driving the autobahns and back highways of Europe. If your priority is a performance sedan, BMW continues to be the best, especially the 3 series, whether the 320d or the 335.

At some point the economic downturn in the USA will make our wages very competitive with European car makers. How could it not? The Euro/$ exchange rate is above 1.5/1 When I bought my E46 it was .9/1

But the corporate decision makers at GM seem sadly behind, so we are likely to find that the high-paying engineering and other design jobs will be done elsewhere. European and Japanese corporations will build factories and assembly lines here, but the advantage that the USA had as a magnet for the best and the brightest is over.

It's sad that BMW is so far ahead of GM in emergent areas like diesels.

[galahad05]

Regarding GM:

Some time back (late last year I believe) I read an article about the American car companies, and their woes. In essence, what I read --from people who are in the know about the companies' management-- was, in essence, "Oh, they (upper management) get it; they realize where they are now, and how they got there. They're trying their hardest to change things, get them back on track."

The problems, the article continues, are several:

1. Money -- GM/Ford/Chrysler are low on cash, and building an entirely new lineup of cars is HUGELY expensive. Therefore, they're having to pick and choose where their R&D budget goes. But they're doing it.

2. Perception -- GM could come out today with the world's most reliable car, heck perhaps the worlds most reliable and beautiful car, and 1/2 the U.S. population wouldn't even look at it. GM rightfully earned a reputation for suckiness which took them decades to earn, and it's going to take years and years for them to live down that reputation. In the article, one dealer lamented "We have very competitive cars now, but we can't get anyone to come take a look at them! They all drive past to go to the Toyota and Honda dealerships."

So, what is GM/Ford/Chrysler's strategy? Build competitive cars, thus staying afloat in the near term, and hope they'll be around and in good enough shape to take advantage when customers realize the world-class stuff that will come out in some years and start buying.

So, yes, GM gets it. They just have to tread water until their new philosophy--and products--come out to market, and customer perceptions start to change.

[stressdoc]

Originally Posted by galahad05

Regarding GM:

Some time back (late last year I believe) I read an article about the American car companies, and their woes. In essence, what I read --from people who are in the know about the companies' management-- was, in essence, "Oh, they (upper management) get it; they realize where they are now, and how they got there. They're trying their hardest to change things, get them back on track."

The problems, the article continues, are several:

1. Money -- GM/Ford/Chrysler are low on cash, and building an entirely new lineup of cars is HUGELY expensive. Therefore, they're having to pick and choose where their R&D budget goes. But they're doing it.

2. Perception -- GM could come out today with the world's most reliable car, heck perhaps the worlds most reliable and beautiful car, and 1/2 the U.S. population wouldn't even look at it. GM rightfully earned a reputation for suckiness which took them decades to earn, and it's going to take years and years for them to live down that reputation. In the article, one dealer lamented "We have very competitive cars now, but we can't get anyone to come take a look at them! They all drive past to go to the Toyota and Honda dealerships."

So, what is GM/Ford/Chrysler's strategy? Build competitive cars, thus staying afloat in the near term, and hope they'll be around and in good enough shape to take advantage when customers realize the world-class stuff that will come out in some years and start buying.

So, yes, GM gets it. They just have to tread water until their new philosophy--and products--come out to market, and customer perceptions start to change.

The cynic in me remembers reading similar commentaries in the past.

[Mondolemite]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Bizarre thread.

One can only hope that GM will improve its management culture to the point where it can make the kinds of engineering achievements that BMW does.

But most of the posts here are more about 'style' than engineering. The heart and soul of BMW is building the best 4-door performance sedans for the European driving environment. I don't think they've designed a 'pretty' car (I mean that in a positive way) since the 507. But they continue to build the best sedans in the world for driving the autobahns and back highways of Europe. If your priority is a performance sedan, BMW continues to be the best, especially the 3 series, whether the 320d or the 335.

At some point the economic downturn in the USA will make our wages very competitive with European car makers. How could it not? The Euro/$ exchange rate is above 1.5/1 When I bought my E46 it was .9/1

But the corporate decision makers at GM seem sadly behind, so we are likely to find that the high-paying engineering and other design jobs will be done elsewhere. European and Japanese corporations will build factories and assembly lines here, but the advantage that the USA had as a magnet for the best and the brightest is over.

It's sad that BMW is so far ahead of GM in emergent areas like diesels.

I honestly believed that the 8 series was the prettiest car I had ever seen on the road when I was in high school and I grew up in the LA area. It's one of the reasons I became a Bimmer fan.

That being said, I have to agree with you about engineering. When I graduated from med school I wanted to treat myself to a nice car. The G35 was hot then (I've driven mostly Nissans in my life) and better looking than most $30k-ish cars available in the US with great performance numbers. But, driving it v. the E46 proved to me that it was the engineering that was the difference. I saved my money and waited for the 335.

Later (but still before the 335 came out), I took my wife (who knows nothing about cars and drives an Accord) to a Lexus marketing event and we drove the IS and 330 back-to-back and it was clear to her that the Bimmer was a better car (by far) despite what the numbers said. She even made fun of her friend who bought an IS later calling it a "girl's car".

I had my first Bimmer road trip when in college in San Diego. We drove down to Tijuana to party because we were all underaged (drinking age is 18 in Mexico). I volunteered to be designated driver so I could drive a friend's E46 back from Mexico. I knew that car was special. The connectedness to the road, the feeling of control and power at the same time. It's hard for me to articulate but I know it when I feel it. I got the same feeling (but much more power) when I drove my 335 on the Autobahn. GM is definitely making a comeback but they haven't found that "special place" yet.

[galahad05]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

The cynic in me remembers reading similar commentaries in the past.

Ah, but the difference this time? These companies have their backs against the wall. Huge losses, of money and market share. Really, they have no choice but to either:

a) innovate, change the way they do things, or
b) go bankrupt/get bought out/go the way of AMC/Hudson

[Tallest]

Originally Posted by John 070

Even the new M3 didn't come in #1 in the comparo, it's a weakling in the torque dept to the C63.

*sigh*
what's the use of all that torque if it just spins out in corners like an idiot and goes through tires quicker then a runner through bottles of water.

see this. There is an excellent bit about hitting an apple on the apex with M3 vs AMG. Brilliant.

[q2bruiser]

Innovation rarely comes from a "fat cow". What I mean is this ...

When engineering a product, design, etc the most innovative designs usually come from the lack of something. In other words, when a company is down, short on cash, in a catch up position there exists a constraint which engineers and designers must deal with. That's when you tend to see the most creative solutions, rethinking of problems, etc.

BMW makes a lot of money. It only stand to reason they are not in need and as most humans will grow into a "fat cow".

JKH

P.S. - I still love my E90 though ...

[purplewidow]

wow a brand new car..vs a model that has been out for years with a modest facelift...lets see in a few years what bmw comes out with next..i remember when this current 5 came out and everybody was either raving or complaining about it's style b/c it was so daring..now b/c they are nearing the end of the model generation..people say it's losing it's flare..and funny the same article also says how the n54 and trans is leaps and bounds above the cadilac as well as the suspension..the writer was more impressed with the leather and interior fitment plus the new caddy style..but the bmw kills it in ALL areas of performance.

i gotta hand it to GM since they deleted their cdilac only plant back in the 90's this is bar none the hottest car they have made and the coupe looks even better
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[stressdoc]

Originally Posted by Mondolemite

I honestly believed that the 8 series was the prettiest car I had ever seen on the road when I was in high school and I grew up in the LA area. It's one of the reasons I became a Bimmer fan.

That being said, I have to agree with you about engineering. When I graduated from med school I wanted to treat myself to a nice car. The G35 was hot then (I've driven mostly Nissans in my life) and better looking than most $30k-ish cars available in the US with great performance numbers. But, driving it v. the E46 proved to me that it was the engineering that was the difference. I saved my money and waited for the 335.

Later (but still before the 335 came out), I took my wife (who knows nothing about cars and drives an Accord) to a Lexus marketing event and we drove the IS and 330 back-to-back and it was clear to her that the Bimmer was a better car (by far) despite what the numbers said. She even made fun of her friend who bought an IS later calling it a "girl's car".

I had my first Bimmer road trip when in college in San Diego. We drove down to Tijuana to party because we were all underaged (drinking age is 18 in Mexico). I volunteered to be designated driver so I could drive a friend's E46 back from Mexico. I knew that car was special. The connectedness to the road, the feeling of control and power at the same time. It's hard for me to articulate but I know it when I feel it. I got the same feeling (but much more power) when I drove my 335 on the Autobahn. GM is definitely making a comeback but they haven't found that "special place" yet.

Ditto. It's the feel. Drove my 1600ti down to Mazatlan (from Ann Arbor MI) a long time ago. 335 is a lot more isolated and tons faster, but still has that feel.

I don't think GM can market cars with high tech materials ($) built for the autobahns & twisties here in the USA. I'd be happy for them if they could sell a <3,000 lb version of the Impala. But the masses still want their Silverados and Escalades.

[grumpybear]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Ditto. It's the feel. Drove my 1600ti down to Mazatlan (from Ann Arbor MI) a long time ago. 335 is a lot more isolated and tons faster, but still has that feel.

I don't think GM can market cars with high tech materials ($) built for the autobahns & twisties here in the USA. I'd be happy for them if they could sell a <3,000 lb version of the Impala. But the masses still want their Silverados and Escalades.

I think high gas prices are a blessing in disguise for GM. It's going to force them to continue to focus on building a better car line and quit spending so much time on those damn SUV's. SUV's sales are sinking for everyone and since we are stuck in the days of $3+ gas (we're probably not going to see anything less then $2.75 gas again), good cars are what's going to keep companies alive.

For BMW, they are going to have to continue a way to build car cheaper and sell them for less. Money is so tight for alot of people right now and with gas at the levels it is, only the BMW fan is going to buy them at the current price. Too many other good cars out there which are cheaper, the same size, better gas mileage, and as good or better build quality. If you're trying to save money each month, why would you buy a car that more expensive and supposedly "more fun to drive" but you can't really drive it the way you'd like to because if you did, you can't afford the gas for it??

[galahad05]

As far as technology goes...just throwing out a tidbit, some food for thought.

The BMW M3:
Power = 414 HP
Torque = 295 lb-ft.
Economy = 14/20 mpg

The Chevrolet Corvette Coupe:
Power = 430 HP
Torque = 424 lb-ft.
Economy = 16/26 mpg

GM does know how to do things right, at least some of the time.

[grumpybear]

Originally Posted by galahad05

As far as technology goes...just throwing out a tidbit, some food for thought.

The BMW M3:
Power = 414 HP
Torque = 295 lb-ft.
Economy = 14/20 mpg

The Chevrolet Corvette Coupe:
Power = 430 HP
Torque = 424 lb-ft.
Economy = 16/26 mpg

GM does know how to do things right, at least some of the time.

not only that but which you do think is a) more reliable, b) easier to fix, c) easier to mod and d) less costly to maintain. I know guys with good tunes (and no other mods) that are getting 20+ in the city and 30-31 mpg on the highway in their LS2/3 corvette's. You can over-engineer things sometimes and fancy is not always better then simple.