[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I have a coworker with a 30 year old Miata he bought new. He recently had to put a new top on it (2017) and that's about it outside of regular maintenance. Yours sounds like a manufacturing defect.

I have over 850,000 total accumulated miles on BMWs, all but 68K of it on new-purchased cars, so I can say I know what level BMWs can provide for reliability. Out of those miles, I only needed two instances of flatbeds to come to the rescue. But I DIY, so that's the real trick to owning a BMW.

Similar miles on roundels and my dad has a 1990 Miata too. And only sold his FD RX7 a few months ago. Any car can be reliable and any car can suck. It's really got little to do with where it was built or who the engineers were.

[Atomicchicken]

Originally Posted by insanecoder

..not to mention that on percentage basis more BMW owners mod and tune their cars running over spec
hows that suppose to improve "reliability" stats?

mine is running very smoothly w/o issues (made in Munich) ya vo!

I beg to differ on this point. There are just as many Japanese cars which are also modded and pushed beyond OEM specs and they are just as reliable if not more so.

I am sure all car manufactures learn from past design faults and try to improve and perfect things and develop the next product but it's just seems even the basics are sometimes lacking. I do agree that trying new and innovative ideas always introduces risks but I would think that most of the problems would be found during the testing period.

Overall I think the reliability stats are calculated and averaged over the car marques entire range and not one particular model or line so I still don't understand how the reliability scores are still subpar considering the price premium. I would hope that they would put a little more priority on improving their reliability ratings and image. Similar to the way the Korean marques have persisted and now their brand image and reliability have greatly improved over the years. I do acknowledge that the German marques do offer a comparable new car warranty but past that I think most people tend to stick with more reliable makes.

I guess in the end it's just piece of mind. There are many people who rely on consumer reports and other sites and publications when making car purchases. When I first brought up that I was considering buying a BMW most of my friends and family said they didn't recommend to buy because they break down or usually have electrical problems so just lease it.

[RM7]

The more stuff they are packing into cars these days, the more can go wrong, and the less chance I think there is of it working 15 years down the road. It's especially expensive with german cars and possibly more of an issue with how they try to "lead" technology improvements, but I fear this is going to be affecting all vehicles. One day, I walked out to my 4-series and tried to open the hatch, nothing happened. In fact, nothing really in the rear half of the car worked, like lights, parking alert, doors, etc. The rear computer unit had just decided to crap out and had to be re-coded. I mean, what happens 15 years from now or more, is anyone even going to support the car? What do you do then? This is happening more and more IME. These cars are designed to last for their warranty period and then it's "no care".

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

The more stuff they are packing into cars these days, the more can go wrong, and the less chance I think there is of it working 15 years down the road. It's especially expensive with german cars and possibly more of an issue with how they try to "lead" technology improvements, but I fear this is going to be affecting all vehicles. One day, I walked out to my 4-series and tried to open the hatch, nothing happened. In fact, nothing really in the rear half of the car worked, like lights, parking alert, doors, etc. The rear computer unit had just decided to crap out and had to be re-coded. I mean, what happens 15 years from now or more, is anyone even going to support the car? What do you do then? This is happening more and more IME. These cars are designed to last for their warranty period and then it's "no care".

I'm 3 months past 12 years ownership of my car and well above 300,000 miles. I can still get almost every part of the car from BMW. I have a 21 year old Z3 and just a year ago prepped it for a cross-country road trip, I was still able to get the obscure plastic cooling system parts for the M44 in it for reasonable prices from BMW. When I had my E30, even after 18 years, BMW still had virtually every part for the car available to keep it running. I've not checked lately, but I'd bet 90% of the E30 parts are still available from BMW 26 years past its last production date. My experience with BMW for over 30 years has been they have great part support for the cars they produce.

I can't disagree more with your last statement.

[backhill]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Engineers rarely ever guess. If they did, there'd be a lot of dead people in the world. If anything, BMW is an engineering-driven company that advances the state of the art in some areas as engineering challenges, yet there is an economic factor to be considered in the design and manufacture of parts and components and subassemblies.

MTBF can be calculated for almost any machine, component, or part. There is hardly any mystery to automotive design and manufacturing at this point in an industry that is well over 100 years old and over billions of product manufactured. Reliability is designed into each component, varibility depends mostly on adherence to manufacturing process and deviation in part tolerence and the buildup of tolerances between mating parts.

I agree to an extent. Engineers work within very tight tolerances depending on the materials. Metals and mechanical parts such as a transmission are usually much tighter in tolerance, if not having virtually no room for error. Plastic door panels and fuel doors, under-body plastics, less so. They can be a millimeter off or more and still pass muster depending on the vehicle and it's price point

I did not mean they estimate the tolerances in this case. I meant that they estimate the level of testing to prove out a durability factor under X,Y, and Z conditions. Some parts I worked with had durability testing nearly double the number of cycles without any material changes between model years. It was the economic factor you are referring to. It became a cost analysis of having higher levels of testing vs. the amount of warranty that will come out the back end, wear and tear and replacement life, etc. But the engineer seemingly pulled the number out of the air when we were in discussions with the supplier, with recommendations provided by the supplier.

[backhill]

Originally Posted by Atomicchicken

I would think that most of the problems would be found during the testing period.

Most. But new technology that suppliers are developing sometimes doesn't show it's true colors until warranty figures start rolling back in.

In my experience, a lot of manufacturers, with all of the new technology being introduced, are very risk averse in certain areas of advancement until it is proven out (read: paid for dearly) by another OEM before they are adopted across the market. You can look at Bluetooth as a good example. It was very prevalent in a lot of German vehicles in the early-mid 00's but didn't appear in the domestic OEMs until several years later. A lot of German cars also went capless for the fuel tank much earlier, a decade if not more, than US brands. LED lighting accents, door handle lighting, all led by German engineering and followed by competitors.

Others are less risk averse and trying to grab initial market share (Tesla, Faraday Future, etc.) Driver-less cars are popping up and becoming more prevalent with GM in the commercial ride-sharing arena.

[SteveinArizona]

I am on my second BMW. My first was a 330e and I had constant CELs regarding the battery system. I replace it with the 530e and after 8 months it has been rock solid.

Cars are becoming more like computers (and contain many of them) and I think the reliability is becoming more like computers as well -- if it stays reliable for the first half year or so, it will likely remain so and if it has problems in the first six months...oh well, probably built by folks more concerned about the world cup than reliability.

So I am hopeful that I lucked out on the reliability sweepstakes.

[King Rudi]

Generally, I think that everyone's experiences will differ thus providing different responses. In my experiences with Lexus, Infiniti and BMW; I spend more time working on my BMW. The Infiniti I got rid of after two years due to the passenger side rear brake kept locking up, had it replaced 3 times in 2 years, new lines and all. My BMW's I constantly worked on although a lot of those hours were spent either coding or doing cosmetic mods. On my E93 I have not done any performance mods as I don't expect to keep the car but maybe another year and this will reduce my selling market.

My E36 had a N62 dropped in it from the guy I bought it from. Wicked fast, scary at times. Also had constant problems with it, which ultimately lead to me selling it within a year. The guy I bought it from had a BMW/Porsche junkyard and tinkers around and builds some crazy stuff. He had a E36 with a 5.7 V8 crate in it that he used as a drifting car, that thing was nuts.

My Lexus was an IS350 (2011) bought it in 2013 and I loved that car. Everything about it seemed to be precision. I spent far less on maintenance overall on this car in the 3 years I had it. Oil changes, tires and brakes; that was it. In all fairness my BMW is a 2008 so I expect to spend more on it maintenance wise. The Infiniti was ok i guess; it was a 2009 G35. I got more compliments on that car than any car I've owned as aesthetically it was awesome, completely murdered out, debadged and sat on 20" Lorenzo's, but to me it just felt cheap.

My current E93 lacks in bells and whistles as it's the base model (oddly enough still has bluetooth, adaptive headlights, power everything, etc.) but is the most enjoyable to drive of all that I've owned. The acceleration is amazing and the fact that I can put it into a curve at speed still blows my mind.

All in all, I spend more time and money on BMW's but also enjoy driving them more which is what they are built for.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by FirstF80InSpace

I think part of the problem is that German automakers tend to over-engineer their cars to compete with the likes of Lexus. So what they do is load their car with new cutting edge features, electronics, etc. This leads to a greater chance of something going wrong.

Historically speaking, the electronics parts of German cars are their weakest link. No doubt the major components of their cars are very durable, it's the new electronic stuff that tends to have the bugs. Combine this with the fact that German cars are expensive to fix, and there you have a misconception that German cars are largely unreliable.

Having said that, I've owned Audi, Mercedes and BMW over the past 15 years, and (knock on wood) never had a major thing go wrong with any of my German cars. Just minor electrical things that were covered under warranty. Ie. Telecommunications module, sunroof switch, noisy fuel pump...

Yea, those N54 HPFPs, turbos, all the common water pump issues on their cars, etc don't count.

My old 335 had a trans fluid leak. Thankfully, I had the car under warranty.

[KingOfJericho]

Yeah my least reliable cars were all over-engineered European vehicles. My 135i was a shit-show and by far the most unreliable car I've owned.

[David70]

Originally Posted by 10"

I think most people tend to confuse reliability with maintenance.

German cars require more maintenance. More replacement of parts at shorter intervals. Pretty typical of more high performance parts. A lot of ordinary Japanese and American cars are not trying to be performance oriented; so their parts last longer and require less maintenance and/or replacement.

That being said I do think BMW for example have frequently dropped the ball on things like water pumps, fuel pumps, etc.

The fact is modern cars on the whole are fairly reliable...german cars are no exception.

What are these replacement "maintenance" parts that need to be replaced on German cars and not Japanese cars? Shouldn't BMW be pointing them out in the Maintenance Manual? Trying to think, filters and spark plugs are the only parts, then fluids, anything after that is when the part wears out? Are there any other maintenance parts?

My Audi had a long list of sensors that failed, didn't see them as anything to do with maintenance.

[Chihuahua]

LOL at this thread title.

[smrtypants44]

https://jalopnik.com/toyotas-innovat...ver-1828669491

An interesting video on how Toyota changed manufacturing forever.

[dgoldenz]

I’ve had 4 BMWs and they’ve all had terrible reliability and one repair after another. I’ve had 3 Porsche’s and have had nothing but routine maintenance. BMWs are garbage. E92 still a legend though.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by 10"

German cars require more maintenance. More replacement of parts at shorter intervals. Pretty typical of more high performance parts. A lot of ordinary Japanese and American cars are not trying to be performance oriented; so their parts last longer and require less maintenance and/or replacement.

What about the Corvette? It's both reliable & high performing.

[saeyedoc]

Originally Posted by Never_Enough

What about the Corvette? It's both reliable & high performing.

But it's a Corvette

[saeyedoc]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

I’ve had 4 BMWs and they’ve all had terrible reliability and one repair after another. I’ve had 3 Porsche’s and have had nothing but routine maintenance. BMWs are garbage. E92 still a legend though.

Same experience, but add Audi to the BMW side of the list.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by saeyedoc

But it's a Corvette

That's a bad thing why?

[saeyedoc]

Originally Posted by Never_Enough

That's a bad thing why?

Mostly kidding, but it's the stereotypical image of the Corvette driver wearing gold chains and a tight shirt that would keep me away. I do think the modern versions (and the old vintage ones) are good looking cars.

[BigHunk]

Toyota,Hyundai,Kia and other low level brands, their owners, they don't have high standards or demands from those miserable car,problem for them is only when wheel fell off.
Couple weeks ago drove Rav4 with 55tkm,owner is 60 year old lady,noise,clonking from suspension,she doesn't see that as an issue,while Bmw owner will fix those issues if they exist.
This is the reason about their high "reliability" plus they are crappy to drive,steering feels like connected with rope to the wheels etc etc

[eluded]

I dunno my Toyota gets abused and fixed when broken. That said very few problems I've had with it in 22 years of ownership. I wonder if the BWM be as reliable? Would it be as reliable with 50% more horsepower? I really doubt it.

[Atomicchicken]

Ran across this Engineering Explained video that somewhat covered my initial question. Does not single out German brands in particular but still interesting. I still think Japanese cars are more reliable even after watching his video.