[baege]

Originally Posted by c1pher

You are waxing nostalgic on the Corvette. I thought you ended up hating them.

yup I definitely worry about that...I didn't hate the c7 I had, I just didn't like it nearly as much as my 2014 Cayman S that I was coming from.

but as of now I'm really left with the C7 or an M2C

with the c7 I will compromise on the size and refinement

with the m2c I will compromise on the sound and turbo lag

you can't win I tell ya

[baege]

Originally Posted by Obioban

You want refinement and revs and torque and NA and manual, with V8 sounds, with proper handling in a package that feels incredibly well made and not overly large?

... Sounds like you want an e39 M5. These days, it's kind of a small car on the outside (F8X M3 is larger). Plenty of torque down low, happily makes power all the way to 7000 rpm. Every one of them in manual, so you won't have to waste time sorting through automatics. Awesome V8 sounds. With a muffler delete, it's remarkably aggressive on the outside/windows down, while still being 100% civil on the inside (sound impossible, but google it and see). No stima from anyone-- 100% of the population either appreciates the e39 M5 or doesn't see it at all.

yes I have definitely looked backwards like this, but in fact it's the e60 545i or 550i manual that has always caught my eye, I always liked the look of that car

but having one as your only car that you drive through the winter just doesn't make sense

I am stuck with modern cars... (post 2016)

[backhill]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Camaro 1SS 1LE or ZL1 1LE. You get the back seat on top of the naturally aspro V8, and a well sorted chassis.

The Camaro stigma is strong, but not as strong as the Corvette stigma. It's also a much, MUCH stiffer chassis than the Corvette, and the 1SS 1LE is cheaper to boot.

I just turned in my 1LE lease earlier this summer and traded for a newborn son.

The 1LE should be looked at and test driven. The C7 feels like more of a freeway cruiser and is generally softer around town. You get much more out of the 1LE in terms of visceral driving experience with the suspension and chassis set up The power train is all the same (same V8, no lift shift, rev matching, etc.). And back seats, or as my wife put it, the rear storage bench. I have on a few occasions fit some 6'+ people back there, but only for short trips. You can also do a E85 tune and full exhaust and really wake it up if you want to. Or get the ZL1 and have all the power you'll ever need.

Visibility wise, you get used to it within a couple of days. It's really not much better, if at all, in the C7. Camaro is 12" longer, but for that you get more leg room and practicality if that's a need.

My friend found a used 2017 1LE with 1.5k miles for just a shade over $30k this past spring in a southern state and brought it back up to Michigan. The protective plastic was still on the entertainment screen. If you're patient, you'll find a good one. IMO, the 2018 refresh was a step backward in looks.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by baege

yes I have definitely looked backwards like this, but in fact it's the e60 545i or 550i manual that has always caught my eye, I always liked the look of that car

but having one as your only car that you drive through the winter just doesn't make sense

I am stuck with modern cars... (post 2016)

You're fine driving a corvette in the winter, but not an M5? I don't get it

Snow tires can go on any cars. E.g. my wife's DD:

[Alfisti]

It all comes back to torque. That's the issue here, everythign else you list is available.

From my perspective, i'd give up the vette's torque and just enjoy the 911s engine and rev happy nature as it is a way smaller car than the vette.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by backhill

I just turned in my 1LE lease earlier this summer and traded for a newborn son.

The 1LE should be looked at and test driven. The C7 feels like more of a freeway cruiser and is generally softer around town. You get much more out of the 1LE in terms of visceral driving experience with the suspension and chassis set up The power train is all the same (same V8, no lift shift, rev matching, etc.). And back seats, or as my wife put it, the rear storage bench. I have on a few occasions fit some 6'+ people back there, but only for short trips. You can also do a E85 tune and full exhaust and really wake it up if you want to. Or get the ZL1 and have all the power you'll ever need.

Visibility wise, you get used to it within a couple of days. It's really not much better, if at all, in the C7. Camaro is 12" longer, but for that you get more leg room and practicality if that's a need.

My friend found a used 2017 1LE with 1.5k miles for just a shade over $30k this past spring in a southern state and brought it back up to Michigan. The protective plastic was still on the entertainment screen. If you're patient, you'll find a good one. IMO, the 2018 refresh was a step backward in looks.

1LE is a monster. It's fun to have something that aggressive, but it's not too aggressive for daily driving and most other situations. This is a sad week, as I am going to install my winter wheels on it...and they aren't 305s. The alpha chassis camaro is deceivingly small. It somehow manages to "appear" wider, but in reality it's significantly smaller in every dimension than the previous camaro, it just doesn't look it. In my garage, I expect it to be "full" when I park it close to one of the ends, but then there's a huge gap behind the vehicle because it's shorter than I expect. They really went out of the way to make it (the chassis) as stiff as possible.

[baege]

Originally Posted by Obioban

You're fine driving a corvette in the winter, but not an M5? I don't get it

Snow tires can go on any cars. E.g. my wife's DD:

it's having an older car as your only car to drive in the winter that I am not keen on...reliability wise...having breakdowns in the winter sucks big time, ask me how i know

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by baege

it's having an older car as your only car to drive in the winter that I am not keen on...reliability wise...having breakdowns in the winter sucks big time, ask me how i know

Cars are as reliable as they're maintained to be.

I've had one break down in 18 years of driving and tracking e46 M3s and e39 M5s.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

1LE is a monster. It's fun to have something that aggressive, but it's not too aggressive for daily driving and most other situations. This is a sad week, as I am going to install my winter wheels on it...and they aren't 305s. The alpha chassis camaro is deceivingly small. It somehow manages to "appear" wider, but in reality it's significantly smaller in every dimension than the previous camaro, it just doesn't look it. In my garage, I expect it to be "full" when I park it close to one of the ends, but then there's a huge gap behind the vehicle because it's shorter than I expect. They really went out of the way to make it (the chassis) as stiff as possible.

It was eye opening for me when I couldn't pass a ZL1 1LE at Auto Club Speedway on Stock sized Supercar 3Rs, not because he's got ~200HP on me, but because I couldn't get a good enough exit speed out of the slow corners leading up to the long straights. It was eye opening how he was able to lay down the power in the 2 hairpins and the one 90º combo chicane.

It is a weird sensation to get so used to a car that feels like it's carved out of a single block of billet aluminum then get in the Corvette. It's not noodle-y soft by any means, but you do sense the chassis flexing when the rebounding forces act upon each axle on opposite end of the car. It's fantastic in the faster corners but laying down power in tight turns seems to be an exercise in patient and a guessing game as to when the tires are going to "hook up."

Overall, the Corvette is still a better chassis though, with a much MUCH lower center of gravity and less of an aerodynamic brick (and a shape far more conducive to cutting through air). But man...If they ever make a competitive, fixed roof body with 20-25% more structural rigidity? The Corvette would absolutely SLAY.

But I get it. The Camaro has lots of warts. it's a gigantic 2 door car with unsightly lines and questionable interior. And you have to deal with the image of being a Camaro driver, where as the Corvette DOES seem to attract slightly more upscale and refined rednecks (and the occasional middle aged 'ABC' Asian dude).

Back to the original question though, the Corvette is a lot more car for the money that's for sure. And with the imminent arrival of C8 on dealership lots, I'm now seeing C7 M7s being discounted at well over 20%, making a bare-boned 1LT Stingray with Z51 performance package in the mid to LOW $40K range new. That is a metric sh*t ton of car for $45K, and by that I don't mean it's heavy...It's actually LIGHTER than the M2C by about 100 lbs.

It's a lot of car. A LOT.

[Alfisti]

Yeah it'll be double that here man.

[baege]

Back to the original question though, the Corvette is a lot more car for the money that's for sure. And with the imminent arrival of C8 on dealership lots, I'm now seeing C7 M7s being discounted at well over 20%, making a bare-boned 1LT Stingray with Z51 performance package in the mid to LOW $40K range new. That is a metric sh*t ton of car for $45K, and by that I don't mean it's heavy...It's actually LIGHTER than the M2C by about 100 lbs.

It's a lot of car. A LOT.[/QUOTE]

Indeed on autotrader right now, there is a 2019 MSRP 73 CAD on sale for 59 CAD, not a z51 though...as usual the deals aren't quite as good up here

[backhill]

Originally Posted by The HACK

It was eye opening for me when I couldn't pass a ZL1 1LE at Auto Club Speedway on Stock sized Supercar 3Rs, not because he's got ~200HP on me, but because I couldn't get a good enough exit speed out of the slow corners leading up to the long straights. It was eye opening how he was able to lay down the power in the 2 hairpins and the one 90º combo chicane..

This.

I really, really had to try and push to break her loose. The 1LE is as planted as a factory car can be. With the ZL1, I believe the biggest change suspension wise is the sway bars, and maybe bushings?

And I don't know about the image thing. Maybe my ego isn't there, but I couldn't give two shits what the perception was of me when I got into the car. Being 1.5 miles off Woodward maybe the stigma isn't as negative vs. other parts of the country.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by backhill

This.

I really, really had to try and push to break her loose. The 1LE is as planted as a factory car can be. With the ZL1, I believe the biggest change suspension wise is the sway bars, and maybe bushings?

And I don't know about the image thing. Maybe my ego isn't there, but I couldn't give two shits what the perception was of me when I got into the car. Being 1.5 miles off Woodward maybe the stigma isn't as negative vs. other parts of the country.

The ZL1 1LE is way over the top, it gets all kinds of goodies, solid mounts, more aggressive sways, DSSV spool shocks, even wider tires, 19" wheels instead of 20, etc. Everything about it is track focused. The SS 1LE handles a little better due to a little better balance, but the ZL1 version has the 200 more HP and still puts down power great. The SS 1LE is as aggressive as I care for as far as suspension though, I'd seriously doubt the daily-ability of a ZL1 1LE, at that point IMO you have defense mechanisms going on as the car bounces and skips along...I paid for it..so obviously it's a great daily! The regular ZL1 is already a monster at the track and probably the better car for most. The SS 1LE is basically the ZL1, minus the higher HP (heavier) engine. It gets upgraded brakes, much wider tires, the trick eLSD (one big reason they put down the power in turns), magnetic ride shocks, show throw shifter, stiffer sways and suspension, HUD, suede seats, 4-pipe dual mode exhaust, etc. The 2SS version again pretty much gives you a NA ZL1. The lateral Gs these things can sustain are insane and they are awesome fun driving. Best of all, the 1/2SS 1LE versions only come in manual.

[FuriouslyFast]

C7 is a no brainer. DO IT NOW!