[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by cooolone2

WTF!???

Torque Specs aren't a protected trade secret! And neither is working on your own vehicle! As a matter of fact, this could very well be considered a restraint of trade as preventing owners from working in their own vehicles with the free exchange of information. Problem would be if the site was making "any" $ from the exchange of information and if so, even from advertising, then BMW would have a right to shut it down.

Is crazy though, can't tell you how many forums and such with my other and older vehicles that I've learned, educated myself from and been able to perform untold repairs and mods to my cars.

So is YouTube going to be challenged next? How about Google searches? This is absurd!

NewTIS.com was infringing on BMW copyrighted intellectual property; it's completely 100% understandable. The information is worth hundreds of millions of dollars to BMW. I'm sure Bentley had a lot to do with this as well as BMW.

People have been repairing automobiles for generations using printed repair manuals distributed by publishing companies that purchase rights to publish BMW's (or any manufacturer's) repair information. This isn't the end of the world. YouTube and Google are not on BMW's target list. LOL.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'm sure Bentley had a lot to do with this as well as BMW.

Maybe eight years after it was released Bentley is going to produce something for the F22. That would be nice.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Maybe eight years after it was released Bentley is going to produce something for the F22. That would be nice.

Or the E85/86...

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

We all reaped what we sowed. There have been a small effort to push right to repair. It has fallen on deaf ears. A Youtuber named Rich Rebuilds has chronicled his fight with Tesla on being able to obtain service manual level information from Tesla. He was fortunate in that the state he lives in which is Massachusetts had a law that requires auto manufacturers to provide the necessary information for one to repair their own vehicle. But what the law didn't cover are parts availability which Tesla has on lock down. Rich has had to resort to in some cases stock piling parts from totaled vehicles.

This behavior has extended to consumer electronics and will continue to proliferate until you're forced to go to a factory authorized repair facility.

On this topic, I'm checking out a possible source for a service manual. If it works out, I'll post it up.

Hopefully BMW will be added to ALLDATDIY.com. now that NewTIS.com has gone.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

NewTIS.com was infringing on BMW copyrighted intellectual property; it's completely 100% understandable. The information is worth hundreds of millions of dollars to BMW. I'm sure Bentley had a lot to do with this as well as BMW.

People have been repairing automobiles for generations using printed repair manuals distributed by publishing companies that purchase rights to publish BMW's (or any manufacturer's) repair information. This isn't the end of the world. YouTube and Google are not on BMW's target list. LOL.

This is a horrible move by BMW as it will cost them millions of dollars in lost sales.

BMW sales strategy is built around selling a vehicle twice (Lease first, CPO second). A lot of CPO and third owners are also into DIY for repairs/maintenance. Having to rely on a shop or forbid an expensive dealer with their ridiculously high BMW mandated overhead will drive these owners away from the brand. Consequently used car values will suffer which will reduce residuals on leases making the car more expensive for the initial buyer.

BMW also makes a ton of money on parts. Indy shops and Euro-parts houses (FCP Euro, ECS Tuning, etc) will buy less parts from BMW as well.

Another thing is that even if an owner wasn't into DIY, resources like newTIS allow for confirmation of parts required for a job. For example take spark plugs which typically single-use TTY bolts must be removed and replaced.. Without sites like newTIS an owner might not be aware of that requirement.

What's next? Automakers banning OBD2 readers?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

This is a horrible move by BMW as it will cost them millions of dollars in lost sales.

BMW sales strategy is built around selling a vehicle twice (Lease first, CPO second). A lot of CPO and third owners are also into DIY for repairs/maintenance. Having to rely on a shop or forbid an expensive dealer with their ridiculously high BMW mandated overhead will drive these owners away from the brand. Consequently used car values will suffer which will reduce residuals on leases making the car more expensive for the initial buyer.

BMW also makes a ton of money on parts. Indy shops and Euro-parts houses (FCP Euro, ECS Tuning, etc) will buy less parts from BMW as well.

Another thing is that even if an owner wasn't into DIY, resources like newTIS allow for confirmation of parts required for a job. For example with regards to spark plugs typically single-use TTY bolts must be removed and replaced.. Without sites like newTIS an owner might not be aware of that requirement.

What's next? Automakers banning OBD2 readers?

I 100% agree. I deal with IP law a lot, so when I learned of NewTIS.com (from this forum) I was really surprised it even existed. I really thought BMW was behind it considering all the IP (intellectual property) that was on the site, just to promote DIY'ing of old Bimmers. I think the same of RealOEM.com too. I bet it's the next to go.

Back in the day, my fellow Bimmerheads and I had a friend at the Annapolis, MD BMW dealership in the parts department who would burn a copy of the BMW parts TIS for us. This was back in the late 1990's. What a godsend that was. And we were close to Tischer (getBMWparts.com), before it was getBMWparts, so we'd get our parts from them. Their parts guys, Jeff and Mike would give us 20% parts discount without being BMWCCA members. Tischer BMW (now BMW of Silver Spring) is the DC area BMW parts distributor, so their stock was very extensive as it is now. But I moved away from Maryland back in 2003 and lost those resources, so when RealOEM and getBMWsparts came on line it was great to have those resources again.

Regarding OBDII; it's Federally-mandated emission control architecture. That's the whole purpose behind the OBDII, to prevent manufacturer's from claiming proprietary rights to emissions-related computer trouble codes. By statute, they can't take away OBDII and the open-source scan tools.

But will BMW try to shut down proliferation of open-source BMW scan tool software? What is troubling is BMW was known as its own promoter of its Brand and fully supports (supported) down-tier ownership of it's old and legacy models. 20 years ago BMW had opened a specialty service just for owners restoring old Bimmers, where your could order the original documentation for your car and they would source or even make out-of-production parts. Not sure they still support that. Times have changed I guess...

I literally just ordered the Bentley repair manual for my E46 I acquired last year because of this turn of events. For the E86 I'm SOL. But the E86 is enough E90 and E46, I hopefully should be okay.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I 100% agree. I deal with IP law a lot, so when I learned of NewTIS.com (from this forum) I was really surprised it even existed. I really thought BMW was behind it considering all the IP (intellectual property) that was on the site, just to promote DIY'ing of old Bimmers. I think the same of RealOEM.com too. I bet it's the next to go.

Back in the day, my fellow Bimmerheads and I had a friend at the Annapolis, MD BMW dealership in the parts department who would burn a copy of the BMW parts TIS for us. This was back in the late 1990's. What a godsend that was. And we were close to Tischer (getBMWparts.com), before it was getBMWparts, so we'd get our parts from them. Their parts guys, Jeff and Mike would give us 20% parts discount without being BMWCCA members. Tischer BMW (now BMW of Silver Spring) is the DC area BMW parts distributor, so their stock was very extensive as it is now. But I moved away from Maryland back in 2003 and lost those resources, so when RealOEM and getBMWsparts came on line it was great to have those resources again.

Regarding OBDII; it's Federally-mandated emission control architecture. That's the whole purpose behind the OBDII, to prevent manufacturer's from claiming proprietary rights to emissions-related computer trouble codes. By statute, they can't take away OBDII and the open-source scan tools.

But will BMW try to shut down proliferation of open-source BMW scan tool software?

I literally just ordered the Bentley repair manual for my E46 I acquired last year because of this turn of events. For the E86 I'm SOL.

Do you think there's a way for automakers to limit the information provided via OBD2 to only what's federally required and install a second port for diagnostics of everything else?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Do you think there's a way for automakers to limit the information provided via OBD2 to only what's federally required and install a second port for diagnostics of everything else?

I think they could do that, not run the manufacture's code through the standardized OBDII port. Old pre-OBDII BMWs have a round BMW-specific port under the hood. My wife's '97 Z3 has both ports. OBDII goes through the OBDII connector in the passenger footwell. The BMW codes can only be accessed through the 32-pin round connector under the hood.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

I get that BMW had the right to do this but charging 250 a month is crazy, not all of us drive an ///M (haha M tax joke )

I would think that a 20 dollars a month subscription fee would net a larger profit as most will just let it bill month to month rather then other to cancel.

I don't see alot of month subscriptions selling at 250. I do see alot of day passes selling and downloading everything for your car that to can.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Hopefully BMW will be added to ALLDATDIY.com. now that NewTIS.com has gone.

Or sell the service manual to end users. I purchased the factory service manual for my C650 Sport from my dealer. It was pricey at just over $100. But at least it's the same stuff the tech uses in an official product.

It's interesting how different the experience is between the automotive side of the house versus the Motorrad side of BMW.

[BMWGirlFL]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

I get that BMW had the right to do this but charging 250 a month is crazy, not all of us drive an ///M (haha M tax joke )

I would think that a 20 dollars a month subscription fee would net a larger profit as most will just let it bill month to month rather then other to cancel.

I don't see alot of month subscriptions selling at 250. I do see alot of day passes selling and downloading everything for your car that to can.

There's an agreement to "provide access to such manufacturer's diagnostic and repair information system for purchase by owners and independent repair facilities on a daily, monthly and yearly subscription basis and upon fair and reasonable terms". I think there should be different rates for shops subscribing for profit and owners doing personal repairs or seeking information for personal use. I don't believe that kind of distinction has been made by any of the involved manufacturers.

https://www.nastf.org/files/public/O...ED_1_15_14.pdf

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BMWGirlFL

There's an agreement to "provide access to such manufacturer's diagnostic and repair information system for purchase by owners and independent repair facilities on a daily, monthly and yearly subscription basis and upon fair and reasonable terms". I think there should be different rates for shops subscribing for profit and owners doing personal repairs or seeking information for personal use. I don't believe that kind of distinction has been made by any of the involved manufacturers.

https://www.nastf.org/files/public/O...ED_1_15_14.pdf

There is a service called ALLDATA that does exactly what you describe. They have a professional website for commercial shops and a home website called ALLDATAdiy. The subscription is $50 for 5 years and $35 per model past the initial purchase. Unfortunately, BMW does not provide its technical data to ALLDATA.

[frzntax]

I posted this in the G30 forum, but for those who are in the midst of repairs, etc this site may be helpful for getting snapshots of the pages you need: https://archive.org/web/

[MidwayMuller]

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

All of newtis can be found in ista-d. Don't ask me how, because I find ista utterly bewildering, but it is all there

Thanks for this, looks like Rheingold is our new best friend.

[DG330]

Just seen this and unbelievably pissed off with BMW... won't be paying $2500.. maybe $30 and I'll download everything for my car and other BMW's I'm interested in owning one day 😅

Looks like I'll be having to search ISTA every time I want to do something. Does anyone know if ISTA has all the same information as Newtis did?

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

bonkers man. we live in society now where you have to pay for information and manuals for products you own. nuts!

[BMWGirlFL]

Looks like Rheingold USA infringement also ended.

[fastboatster]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Do you think there's a way for automakers to limit the information provided via OBD2 to only what's federally required and install a second port for diagnostics of everything else?

They don’t need to do that, they are already providing only federally mandated info via obd port if you use generic obd tool. That’s the nature of modern diagnostic protocols such as UDS, while being very universal and easy to implement, it has a lot of magic constants defined by specific manufacturer which they don’t need to disclose. I personally don’t think it’s that bad with BMWs, inpa and ista are everywhere and don’t need an internet connection to work.

[iminhell1]

Originally Posted by frzntax

I posted this in the G30 forum, but for those who are in the midst of repairs, etc this site may be helpful for getting snapshots of the pages you need: https://archive.org/web/

Yup. Wayback generally saves the bacon.
Unfortunately that's not the case here. I'm not finding a snapshot with a full backup.
SOL for this case.


Also the 'right to repair' laws do not hold precedent over copyright, intellectual property, or trademark laws. There is nothing saying the cost has to be affordable and certainly not free.
We all know it was a nice gesture but would not last.

[jv004]

I don't mind that they switch to their own BMW subscription, it's just the pricing they set are just ridiculous and a big middle finger to the DIY community. Along with the ugly next gen cars and this, BMW is a sinking ship in my eyes.

[DG330]

Originally Posted by BMWGirlFL

Looks like Rheingold USA infringement also ended.

Did it not work on your copy on ISTA?

[DG330]

Mine is not showing pictures, just the text.

Anyone having the same issues?