[two_three_two]

I dropped it into two buckets: new cars (knowing i would need to keep for a while) or used cars (knowing i could get rid of it quickly but potentially dealing with old car problems).

New Cars:

• RS3. I have a Mk 4 R32 that i adore. but spending 65k (plus adm) on a glorified golf with no manual transmission didnt sit right with me.
• GRC Circuit. I had one i waited around for, for almost a full year. it showed up at the dealer, we agreed to a deal over the phone, and then MAGICALLY the deal changed the second i showed up. i told them to go fuck themselves over approx. 3 grand, which sometimes i regret, but usually dont. they sold it the next day at 7500$ over sticker.
• CT4 BW. didnt love the looks, didnt love the interior, didnt love the power delivery, loved the steering, loved the color options, preferred the sedan body style. all in all a great option but it just didnt grab me the same way the M2 did and let's be honest, part of the fun is the presence and styling which i much preferred on the M2. M2 screams "im a muscle coupe and im here to party" and the CT4 is much more of a sleeper. different strokes and probably the one that came closest to getting my dollars.
• ITS. supposed to be glorious but again 60k (plus adm) for a 4 cyl and you cannot even find these things on the ground, still, over 6 months later. ill buy one used or off the lot in a few years if i still have the itch.
• CTR. same as ITS but wife absolutely hated the interior so i decided to spend my marriage political capital elsewhere.

Used cars:

• Lexus GS F. rare and cool with a V8 but just didnt feel special most of the time. cool car though, and i may revisit when kids come into play.
• Lexus IS F. you need a 2010+ to get the LSD as standard and i am not paying 45k+ for a decade old automatic car even if it is a lexus.
• Audi RS4. checks a lot of my boxes but i know 2 people who had them and confirmed they can be a nightmare at this point in their life cycle. i dont usually shy away from these things but if this is my daily driver i cant be constantly to and from the shop or living in fear of something catastrophic.
• W212 E63. probably most likely in the used car list. ultimately couldnt get over the automatic but the GT aspect did almost win me over.

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by nickyjimz

I actually placed orders for both the M2 and the Cadillac CT4-v Blackwing and I'm waiting on both. I like the M2 a little more (although I've never driven one) because the Caddy feels a little too much like my 2019 Camaro to be $25k more expensive.

Buuuuuttttt Car and Driver just awarded the Caddy another 10-best in a class that (presumably) compared it directly to the M2 https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...4-v-blackwing/

Don't get me wrong, i STRONGLY considered the CT4 BW. but C&Ds cadillac dick riding not only goes back far, but i dont take anyone on that staff seriously enough to value their opinion on these things. its fun as entertainment but drive both and pick for yourself. on a new car, dealer network and support ALSO matters (i know, these are the boring administrative considerations) and my local caddy dealers dont know their ass from their elbow unless its an escalade.

[MMMGuy60]

The only other car I really considered was the Supra. I couldn't get one at MSRP so M2 it is. I will probably get a Supra down the line.

[apez]

Considered a F87, bought a G42, traded in for a MT G87.

F87 ride was too harsh for me.
G42 was awesome, but really missed a MT.
G87 is G42++. Love it.

Would have considered a Cayman, but have always had a thing for BMW and like being able to get the dog in the back.

G8x just seem too big.

[ourlee]

need dog in car pic

[nickyjimz]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

Don't get me wrong, i STRONGLY considered the CT4 BW. but C&Ds cadillac dick riding not only goes back far, but i dont take anyone on that staff seriously enough to value their opinion on these things. its fun as entertainment but drive both and pick for yourself. on a new car, dealer network and support ALSO matters (i know, these are the boring administrative considerations) and my local caddy dealers dont know their ass from their elbow unless its an escalade.

Yeah the dealer experience at Caddy dealers has been poor... the Cadillac ordering experience is also bad. I had a GT350 before I placed this order and the Ford dealership experience was actually so bad I'll never buy another.

Long story short: BMW may win this just by delivering the car and some actual information and by being somewhat competent at servicing their own cars.

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by nickyjimz

Yeah the dealer experience at Caddy dealers has been poor... the Cadillac ordering experience is also bad. I had a GT350 before I placed this order and the Ford dealership experience was actually so bad I'll never buy another.

Long story short: BMW may win this just by delivering the car and some actual information and by being somewhat competent at servicing their own cars.

how many new cars, particularly performance cars, sales have been destroyed by miserable, greedy, incompetent dealers? to stick with Ford, i know thats a big part of why the Focus RS couldn't get out of its own way. its funny in retrospect to look at performance cars and think "car x was clearly much better than car y, how did car y outsell it 10 times over?" and a lot of it comes down to period dealership experience. the EVO and STI also jump to mind as period mitsu dealers treated them like gold and yanked your chain up and down to get one, whereas subaru dealers did not do that on STIs to anywhere near the same degree. cadillac did this with second gen V cars and now again w/ BWs.

[nickyjimz]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

how many new cars, particularly performance cars, sales have been destroyed by miserable, greedy, incompetent dealers? to stick with Ford, i know thats a big part of why the Focus RS couldn't get out of its own way. its funny in retrospect to look at performance cars and think "car x was clearly much better than car y, how did car y outsell it 10 times over?" and a lot of it comes down to period dealership experience. the EVO and STI also jump to mind as period mitsu dealers treated them like gold and yanked your chain up and down to get one, whereas subaru dealers did not do that on STIs to anywhere near the same degree. cadillac did this with second gen V cars and now again w/ BWs.

100%, I think the Civic Type R is going to be an example of this. Local dealer wants $10,000 over sticker for one making it almost $60,000... my simple m2 build at sticker is $6k more. Dark Horse is over sticker, GRRolla is over sticker... I just won't pay over sticker to a dealership ever and I'm happy to sit on my hands and wait for my m2 build at sticker if the "cheaper" options are going to be marked up anyway.

[OldButSmooth]

Here in Australia the G87 sits in a market place of its own, there is really nothing that is so readily available at this price point of $132k. Should you want a Cayman 718 Style Edition you will wait 6 to 12 months for delivery and have a very underwhelming 2.0 4 cylinder engine. A Supra 6 MT are very rare and again a long delivery wait. The M2 remains remarkable value for money (a subjective opinion) and is obtainable...I rest my case.
OBS

[Squidget]

Somewhere on these forums I created a bunch of cross-shopping threads. My criteria was a new (not used), RWD MT, 4 seater daily driver for under $70K USD. That eliminated most of the options, leaving:

Camaro
Mustang
V4 BW
Z

Camaro is great at what it does, an awesome value, but as a DD the visibility problems are a dealbreaker.

Mustangs are way too expensive for the quality of interior and what you actually get. The days of being a poor man's sport car are long gone. The DH especially is absurdly expensive for what you get.

The Z is running on 20 year old tech, and it shows. Pour one out for Nissan, they just can't keep up anymore. They couldn't even afford to put an MT in the Nismo. The Z is surviving only on rep and nostalgia nowadays.

So it came down the the Blackwing. I test drove one, I seriously considered it. But in the end I didn't go that way for a few reasons.

- iCue should die in a fire. People bitch about iD8, but IMO it's infinitely better than what GM is doing.

- Serious concerns about track stamina. To my untrained eye, the BW lacks sufficient cooling, I'd really worry about it going limp on a hot day.

- GM dealers are terrible, the amount of flak they gave me just to take a test drive was nuts. BMW dealers have never treated me like garbage the way Chevy and Caddy dealers do.

- Markups were crazy at the time, making it very hard to get anywhere near $70K with a reasonable config. I got my G87 with no ADM. (I've heard it has gotten better for BWs since.)

BWs are IMO the closest apples-to-apples competitor to G87s, and I like them, but in the end the G87 was the better fit for me.

[deneed4spd]

M2 - didn’t like how it looked and only color that looked reasonable was black and I didn’t want another black car. Also back seat were so small that I’m 5’6 and couldn’t fit. My teenage son can’t fit in a year or so. How a e36 back seat had more headroom than the G87 is baffling. Also didn’t like how everyone said steering felt more muted.

Civic Type R - wife said she can’t be seen with a wing like that. She said grow up. Ha!

Porsche GTS - no back seat. Dealer wanted adm and I had to buy a $5000 Porsche watch. That was a first and most ridiculous thing I heard.

Cadillac CT4 BW - like the size, interior is serviceable. But a CT5 BW fell on my lap. Took it instead. Big but drives small. People talk about tossible car but I mostly drive street and at street legal speed, the 5BW can be tossed into any corner as well as the smaller cars listed above. Now track is a diff discussion, although when I tracked it, no ct4 bw could keep up due to sheer amt of power and speed the 5bw can do out of corners and straight aways. The comment above about ct4 bw having maybe cooling issues on track is incorrect. At the BW school, they had CT4s running all day on track and some had 30-40k miles and they were running like champs. These cars literally had 28-38k of pure track and were still running hard with just brake, fluid, tires replacements. Unreal.

Wanted a manual so that threw out other cars. M3/M4 - didn’t want to drive around such an ugly car. Couldn’t look at it.

If there existed a civic type r RWD, I think that would taken the cake.

But at end of the day, we sure have 1st world rich peep problems

[LCDRJohn]

I cross shopped:
1) CT4 Blackwing
2) Lotus Emira
3) Supra

In the end, the Lotus showed up in the market as a total sh!tbag, so I asked for my deposit back. The CT4 was an exercise in going to typical cheesy GM dealers where a greasy dude in a cheap suit explains his $15K ADM by saying, "I knows what I got here" and the Toyota dealers don't know how to sell $60K cars. They want you to call every week and check the stock. Ehh...nah.

[Lawsoc]

Nothing here in the UK 🇬🇧 there was literally nothing else that floated my boat for a w/e toy at reasonable price point. Porsche has never floated my boat I’m sure the ride is great but they looks so bland I wouldn’t really turn my head for one. Some cars I do like but they are simply too large physically.
I had an order for an Emira for like 1.5 years and pulled at when it was due - as this car has way too many issues and extremely poor customer service and questionable quality - dodged a bullet there for sure!
Extremely happy with M2 meets my needs and think price point is excellent for such performance 👍

[Lawsoc]

[QUOTE=LCDRJohn;30716093]I cross shopped:
1) CT4 Blackwing
2) Lotus Emira
3) Supra

In the end, the Lotus showed up in the market as a total sh!tbag, so I asked for my deposit back. The CT4 was an exercise in going to typical cheesy GM dealers where a greasy dude in a cheap suit explains his $15K ADM by saying, "I knows what I got here" and the Toyota dealers don't know how to sell $60K cars. They want you to call every week and check the stock. Ehh...nah.

Haha with ya on Emira comment I did the same just before my was due to be delivered January 2023 - just wait till they hit USA 🇺🇸 and see how owners take to dealing with all the issues backwards n forwards to dealers !

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by deneed4spd

If there existed a civic type r RWD, I think that would taken the cake.

Unfortunately we'll probably never get that. One of the reasons the Civic is so good is because Honda puts a phenomenal amount of R&D money into FWD platforms. A RWD car isn't going to get that kind of money, the S2000 is dead for a reason , so Honda won't replicate that kind of quality in a RWD platform.

We see the same thing for Toyota, who rebadged a BMW to make the Supra. Lacking a big enough R&D budget to develop a complete in-house RWD platform, they had to license someone else's.

I'm simplifying, but roughly speaking, RWD/MT sports cars aren't super popular in domestic Japan, which reduces their interest in R&D.

And it's probably why Nissan continues to lag further behind every year, the Z doesn't get enough R&D to keep up.

[bmwdrive]

Originally Posted by deneed4spd

Porsche GTS - no back seat. Dealer wanted adm and I had to buy a $5000 Porsche watch. That was a first and most ridiculous thing I heard.
problems

You know they probably had a meeting and decided that requiring customers to buy a watch along with the car was a good idea.

[deneed4spd]

CT5 BW beat out M5CS on multiple tracks but M5CS beats BW in 0-60, one wonder how they flipped in their core mission. Then I hear Jason C talking about how bmw is just full of pencil pushers and they lost their way. I’m glad bmw still got to keep their s58 but I fear the pencil pushers will push that out to chase Tesla rather than the actual driving enthusiasts. Look at the new Hyundai ionic 5 N that mimics gear changes and such. Tesla would never do that but hyundai is still trying to satisfy driving enthusiasts. Maybe because Hyundai has the old M head guy.

[Carefree]

I put my name on a list last January with the local Porsche dealer for a GT4. She said you’re on the list but you’ll never get one.

She was right.

[Fastfwd]

I was originally looking at the S650 Mustangs. It was hard to swallow that it was going to likely run G87 M2 money to get a S650 in a similar spec to my old S550. Plus, I got a really nice discount from sticker price on my S550.

In fact, when I started looking they maybe were having supply chain issues idk, but you could only get the S650 PP1 with 255 tires all round. To get the 275's in the rear you had to step up to the Dark Horse. I couldn't stomach the blue interior of the Dark Horse and those had supply issues with the seat options too if I recall. It was either cloth or the blue Recaro seats that I didn't care for personally.

I would have loved the option of a Caymen GTS if that were in the price range, but no dice. I'm not sure why, but the more low slung sport cars like the Supra, Corvette, and Caymen didn't appeal to me as much. I love how they look, but the BMW just seems more approachable as a daily driver, etc.

[Ronin76]

Originally Posted by ourlee

I drove:
3 C8s
2 base 718 boxsters
1 4.0 GTS Cayman
1 Emira (so great but it bumped +$15k and delivered cars are proving to be schit shows)
Driving my first M2 Saturday, hoping to order a ‘25 this fall, crossing my fingers it’ll be xdrive
If we got m3 tourings or RS3 hatches, I’d buy one of those

What were your thoughts on the 4.0 Cayman GTS. I am deciding between that and the M2. I really like the size of the Cayman.

[Ronin76]

Originally Posted by akumachu

I loved how last gen looked and was looking at the F87 burnt orange but it was asking for $60k with 30k mile.
Saw the release picture of the G87 and didn't like it.

After seeing the G87 in person, changed my mind and got the ZB G87 and cannot be happier.

I daily this and need to fit two children in the back, otherwise I would be looking at the Cayman.

I felt the same. Saw pics and did not like it at all but seeing a few in person has started to change my mind...and the price! The price for performance is hard to beat.

[ourlee]

Originally Posted by Ronin76

What were your thoughts on the 4.0 Cayman GTS. I am deciding between that and the M2. I really like the size of the Cayman.

This is unpopular with the 718 boys but I didn’t like the 4.0. It’s known for it’s AMAZING noises, all true, but they are only enjoyed on the street 5500 rpm to redline in first gear (45 mph) and second gear (80 mph). The rest of the time it’s a high strung brilliant motor making mom sounds at 2k rpms on the street. A terrible street experience. I’m all about the base or S turbo with PDK because I don’t track.
If you have $10k laying around and give no fvcks about a warranty, a DeMan gear set would make the 4.0 the best car ever.
Now consider mid engine balance, great steering, 3100lbs and a biggie for me, analog old school interior, the 718 is like no other.
I’m leaning something like this after my m2 test drive
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/1...-8d0235c02e13/
Add OHLINS and I’d be all set.