[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Squidget

There's a lot more than a car doing what you tell it to do. If you are driving at the limit, you want the car to tell YOU what it's doing.

To generalize:

The M2 steering feel is numb, so you are getting a lot less feel. It's a lot harder to tell how much traction is left in the front tires especially. Because the M2 also has a lot of RWD power, it's also easy to break away the rears while applying power.

So you are at risk of over OR under steering without a lot of warning. This makes it tossable, but also raw and a little dangerous. Without the nannies on, the average driver is probably putting this car into a ditch at least once.

So, you can absolutely point the M2 somewhere and it DOESN'T go there. You have to learn how to manage it using signals other than steering feel. Keep the windows down and listen to the tires, and rely on your "butt dyno."

Until you are used to it, the M2's weight also sneaks up on you in turns with a lot of weight transition. The car can take longer to settle back in than expected, putting you in a tough spot. Elevation changes or chicanes are tricky.

Porsches are best in business at feedback. Using all the info their cars are telling you, you can attune to your car and push it right to the limit with confidence. They tend to be scalpels on turns, immediately settling into turns so you transition quickly.

These are rough generalizations, but hopefully they paint a picture.

I don't know, more 911s have gone into guard rails and off cliffs with the tail end first.

I think a M2, 718 or 911 can be dangerous if you overdrive you skill level.

Some instruction on how to drive toward the limits are warranted in any of these cars.

The inexperienced need instruction.

[ourlee]

gently driven Z06 or 718 GT4 for ~$100k.

notta a chance

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

I know this is a M2 v Porsche thread, but at $80k+ the M2 really starts to lose the "value" moniker, imo. At $65-70k, absolutely, but $85-$90, not so much. Wait another year and you'll be able to pick up a gently driven Z06 or 718 GT4 for ~$100k.

The problem with the G87 in this comparison is that the car is basically an M4 with a slightly shorter wheelbase. Thus, the price has inched upward.

The F87 Comp was also an M4 where it mattered, but the price remained advantageous because the interior and options was/were still more or less 2-series level.

That is the problem with the G87. There is so little differentiation between the M4 and M2 now that the latter can no longer be a bargain vs. Porsche and co.

[baege]

Originally Posted by matty_f

The M2 is an absolute monster and is a near perfect Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde car. With traction on it is very capable and confidence inspiring in the twisties. While it’s a bit heavy, I don’t notice it much until under heavy braking. Dial the traction control back (lots of different levels for every skill) and the torque allows you to spin the rear tires on command. It’s well balanced and easy to control at the limit. I have a few complaints but most are nits you can live with: auto jerks the car in level 3, wish the ride was comfier in comfort,

Porsche is a much more serious car. Mine is a GT3 so it’s maybe an unfair comparison. It’s more precise in the turns, feels more special, it doesn’t pull as hard, but it pulls you back longer. This is the difference in torque and power curves. You can still get the back loose, but I’m not as confident in my skills. My car doesn’t have any adjusts to traction control, it’s either off or on, so playing around can have serious consequences.

I find myself driving the wife’s M2 a lot. It’s just so fun and playful. It’s like a rowdy teenager egging you on to do stupid stuff… no one’s looking, go ahead and drift that on ramp. I don’t do that often in my other car.

Hedonic adaption keeps us chasing new stuff, but the G87 delivers the fun, day after day. Get one and don’t look back.

wow that is high praise for the M2 coming from a 991.2 GT3 driver, which has been my pinnacle car for a while now in terms of the smiles per hour metric

I had an F87 M2C prior to my 22 Cayman GTS 4.0 manual and the F87
was definitely more fun than the GTS 4.0 in some respects, but the NA 4.0 and manual just took the smiles per hour to another level over the S55 and not so great manual in the M2

Have you driven an F87 much, how would you compare the G87 and F87 in smiles per hour?

to the OP: my 2 cents, yes porsches do offer a different level of experience, but get one with a naturally aspirated motor and a manual to access that next level

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by ourlee

gently driven Z06 or 718 GT4 for ~$100k.

notta a chance

Really? They're already moving down there. Brand new Z06s are available at discounts off MSRP right now, and there have been more than a couple with <3k mi sell for ~10k or more off original MSRP. Here's an example:

[ourlee]

WOW! I stand corrected. That z06 at 100 is a screaming deal.

[JohnVLarson]

The G87 M2 is an amazing car, no doubt! It’s more focused on driver engagement than outright refinement like the 718 or 911. While Porsche has the edge in handling and luxury, the M2 offers a raw, thrilling experience that's hard to beat at its price point.

[techwhiz1]

[QUOTE=JABCAT;31713238]Really? They're already moving down there. Brand new Z06s are available at discounts off MSRP right now, and there have been more than a couple with

[ourlee]

Actually prices start at 117 like I thought, first low ones are accident cars
https://www.cars.com/shopping/result...6-1aeae41b3030

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by ourlee

Actually prices start at 117 like I thought, first low ones are accident cars
https://www.cars.com/shopping/result...6-1aeae41b3030

If it's just cosmetic, I don't worry about it. My M2 has a new rear bumper, you'd never know. My previous 3-series had $4500 in damage from a piece of tire that was kicked up (new head light, fog light, grille, and trim pieces). But like I said above, wait another year & they'll be down from $117 (I saw one for $109 on another site).

[fzr100098]

C8 (incl Z06) prices will keep falling - GM always produces too many cars, they don't hold their value well in general, and ZR1 upgrade factor

$90k or below the C8 Z06 is definitely worth it, although I've heard of transmission issues

[ourlee]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

If it's just cosmetic, I don't worry about it. My M2 has a new rear bumper, you'd never know. My previous 3-series had $4500 in damage from a piece of tire that was kicked up (new head light, fog light, grille, and trim pieces). But like I said above, wait another year & they'll be down from $117 (I saw one for $109 on another site).

Yeah I’m not buying any accident car.

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by ourlee

Yeah I’m not buying any accident car.

That's cool. Doesn't mean others won't be able to get a great car at a decent price. As much as I like my M2 & X3MC, these things drop in value like boulders falling off a cliff. That's why I won't load one up to $80 or $90k. I really like the Java Green, but don't want to pay for the mandatory cf roof. The delta over my current M2 would be ~$12k, so I'll stick with what I have for the time being. The original sticker on my wife's X3MC was $89 & change. Not worth it to me, but a 1-yr-old, low-mileage version for $68k was

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

That's cool. Doesn't mean others won't be able to get a great car at a decent price. As much as I like my M2 & X3MC, these things drop in value like boulders falling off a cliff. That's why I won't load one up to $80 or $90k. I really like the Java Green, but don't want to pay for the mandatory cf roof. The delta over my current M2 would be ~$12k, so I'll stick with what I have for the time being. The original sticker on my wife's X3MC was $89 & change. Not worth it to me, but a 1-yr-old, low-mileage version for $68k was

If you are buying any car with resale in mind you should go invest your money and not buy a car.

I understand different value propositions to different people, but a car is a depreciating liability. It's not truly an asset because you must insure it/yourself against damaging other people's stuff.

A car like anything else is based on supply and demand and any item is only worth what someone will pay you when you decide you want to sell. That value can be affected by paint color, interior color and options.

I buy cars without resale in mind.

Java green only requires the roof + the individual paint. That $12k number is specious. The paint is $3000 and the roof is $2600; so $5600 + $64k puts you at $70k.

$13k gets the full carbon package plus paint.
There is not a way to add $12k without the whole carbon package. Selecting individual paint with every option except the Driver's Package and buckets gets you to $75k which is under the additional $12k you indicate.

An equivalent 718 4.0 that I configured is $111k up from the $99k base.
$30k more than the G87 fully loaded.

Throwing in used cars against a new G87 is not a valid argument. If we want to throw used cars in the mix like the C8 Z06 and the GT4, then Iight as well shop for almost anything used. This discussion was about the 718 and 911.

[Racerjbx]

I had driven all the cars you mentioned. The only one I had consider was a 991.2 GTS. It was a good balance of performance and daily needs with out being a GT. However, still expensive for low mileages ones and the high mileage ones I didn't want to go there.

I put down a deposit for 992.2 GTS allocation (not knowing what it will be)and got the G87 while I wait. My allocation came thru but after owning the G87, I ended up really enjoying and cancelled my 911 GTS allocation (price increase went up by $30k and not sure about the new hybrid and changes). On as side note, Buying a new P car is s%&$ show. I ended up not liking any of the dealers. Where as, BMW for me was way easier to deal with and actually better customer service. My wife has a Macan and it is pain to deal with.

[Ronin76]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I buy cars without resale in mind.

Same…I usually keep my cars for some time so I try to enjoy them as much as I can. If I ever decide to get rid of it, I accept whatever the value is at that time.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Ronin76

Same…I usually keep my cars for some time so I try to enjoy them as much as I can. If I ever decide to get rid of it, I accept whatever the value is at that time.

Buying a car and worry about resale is like getting married and planning divorce. 🤔

[Ronin76]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

Buying a car and worry about resale is like getting married and planning divorce. 🤔

I use to be active on Rennlist and the phrase “these cars are meant to be driven” was said quite often but when you ask “how often do you drive it?” the response is “about 3k a year”.

[ourlee]

I’m all about buying used, def won’t buy an accident car

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Ronin76

I use to be active on Rennlist and the phrase “these cars are meant to be driven” was said quite often but when you ask “how often do you drive it?” the response is “about 3k a year”.

Originally Posted by ourlee

I’m all about buying used, def won’t buy an accident car

I'm still about buying used. It's just that what I have wanted in the last two buying cycles there was no possibility to get used.

My i4 was purchased when there weren't any and I'm not likely to find what I wanted. Same with the M2. I like TP and since it's a new color and I want a 6 speed, I ordered.

[hb]

Have an 1M and a Cayman GTS 4.0. Drove the G87 M2 a lot as well.

Let's start with the M2: fantastic car for all the reasons listed above: tons of power, torque, great pricing compared to Porsche, just a very capable car. 8-Speed better suited for the car, still the same ol' six-speed. Absolutely great value!

Cayman GTS 4.0: It just drives different. Not tons of power, doesn't wanna kill you when pushed, rotates nicely, even on some slow back roads, the six-speed is fantastic (so easy to handle, gearing still a bit too high for normal driving), and it's still very analog in many ways. Cons: expensive and a 2 seater.

So the M2 is definitely a daily driver while the GTS is the weekend car.

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

If you are buying any car with resale in mind you should go invest your money and not buy a car.

I understand different value propositions to different people, but a car is a depreciating liability. It's not truly an asset because you must insure it/yourself against damaging other people's stuff.

A car like anything else is based on supply and demand and any item is only worth what someone will pay you when you decide you want to sell. That value can be affected by paint color, interior color and options.

I buy cars without resale in mind.

Java green only requires the roof + the individual paint. That $12k number is specious. The paint is $3000 and the roof is $2600; so $5600 + $64k puts you at $70k.

$13k gets the full carbon package plus paint.
There is not a way to add $12k without the whole carbon package. Selecting individual paint with every option except the Driver's Package and buckets gets you to $75k which is under the additional $12k you indicate.

An equivalent 718 4.0 that I configured is $111k up from the $99k base.
$30k more than the G87 fully loaded.

Throwing in used cars against a new G87 is not a valid argument. If we want to throw used cars in the mix like the C8 Z06 and the GT4, then Iight as well shop for almost anything used. This discussion was about the 718 and 911.

That's great that you buy cars without resale in mind. I'm on car #43 in just over 30 years of driving, so I do consider potential resale when choosing what I want next.

Re: the $12k increase to get the Java, considering my '23 has almost 19k mi on it already. So, I maybe get $60k for it & the new Java equipped the same would be about $73k. There's the $12k increase. The discussion about used cars is about the performance value of the G87. Like I said at $65-70, great. At $80+, one can get a better performing vehicle 1-2 years old, which is basically still new.

In order to get a decent 718 or 911, you'll have to go used if trying to compare to the G87.