[BlkGS]

Subaru killed the Boxer-6 a few years ago I think. I think the Subaru WV is also the same as something else, maybe the Honda/GM one?

At the end of the day, it's a .mixture of government regulations and wall st insistence on margin growth. It's better to these folks to not sell something profitable if it doesn't make as much margin as other products. In time, the entire auto industry will just be one big everything shared pile of lackluster because it's more profitable.to share development of all things. They'll tell us their brand identity comes from.their marketing and history and people who want things other than "the motor choice" will be deemed as dangerous and toxic.

[R N M]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

They're the best car channel since Top gear.

By modern standards the Hyundai is not heavy, it's lighter than many performance ICE cars, which is staggering but true. They Cybertruck is an utter and complete joke, it solves zero purpose, carries fuck all, it's massive, build quality is terrible and littered with compromises. It's sold OK because of hype and the gimmick factor but was just reading today they are starting to pile up on lots, deliveries are lower than expected and discounts are starting. It won't last 5 years before it is canned.

And a 911 S/T, magnificent vehicle, incredible, also unobtanium and of you miraculously get your hands on one it'll set you back well over half a million bucks.

These two boofheads have repeatedly show a willingness to call out bad cars or call out bad aspects of cars so i may not agree with the 5N but given the parameters they set, i can see why they chose it.

As I said before I like Throttle House, they are probably one of the best right now. But their whole brand is being hardcore enthusiasts.

There is zero way that they drove an S/T and not thought it was the best car by far. Matt Farrah was begging Porsche for allocation after he drove one, the car is that good.

The Car of the Year is not based on if car is easily obtainable but if its the best. The S/T is a million times better than Ionic N. I don’t mind if Car&Driver chooses it as they are more mainstream but not the guys from Throttle House. This is how you kill your reputation that you worked years to create. I honestly was very put off by their selection.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Subaru killed the Boxer-6 a few years ago I think. I think the Subaru WV is also the same as something else, maybe the Honda/GM one?

At the end of the day, it's a .mixture of government regulations and wall st insistence on margin growth. It's better to these folks to not sell something profitable if it doesn't make as much margin as other products. In time, the entire auto industry will just be one big everything shared pile of lackluster because it's more profitable.to share development of all things. They'll tell us their brand identity comes from.their marketing and history and people who want things other than "the motor choice" will be deemed as dangerous and toxic.

I stated in some other thread a week or two ago that Government over-regulation of automobile design leads to less diversity in the market and I think you agreed with that, so I think we are on the same page there. But I what have been wondering for many years is WHY non-diversification of models is the only path for profitability. Was VW's move to their MQB platform 12 years ago THAT impactful on the cost structure of the entire mainstream vehicle industry? It seems now the industry diversity is million dollar exotics, half-million dollar supercars, and then the rest at $100K EVs and a morass of mid-price ICEV. All with an over indulgence of ADAS.

[ASAP]

i feel like all online reviewers these days have some sort of bias that is skewed by whether they will get more of the manufacturers cars or not...

that being said... a single car of the year has always been a bizarre thought to me... i would break this out as ICE vs EV and then down into categories, sports car, luxury car, suv etc

[jkoral]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

They Cybertruck is an utter and complete joke, it solves zero purpose, carries fuck all, it's massive, build quality is terrible and littered with compromises. It's sold OK because of hype and the gimmick factor but was just reading today they are starting to pile up on lots, deliveries are lower than expected and discounts are starting. It won't last 5 years before it is canned.

Hadn't been following the Cybertruck news, but stumbled across this yesterday:
https://electrek.co/2025/01/02/tesla...re-disastrous/

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by ASAP

i feel like all online reviewers these days have some sort of bias that is skewed by whether they will get more of the manufacturers cars or not...

that being said... a single car of the year has always been a bizarre thought to me... i would break this out as ICE vs EV and then down into categories, sports car, luxury car, suv etc

This. What is car of the year anyways? The car of the year for me may not be the same for you. I watched their video a few days ago and don't remember them stating what the criteria is. People just assume it's performance.

I know one of those guys owns a Toyota/Crown freaking limo from Japan so I would venture to say they are more focused on cars in general than on performance. Maybe car of the year is like the most influential or something. It certainly had a lot of hype/controversy when it came out.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

This. What is car of the year anyways? The car of the year for me may not be the same for you. I watched their video a few days ago and don't remember them stating what the criteria is. People just assume it's performance.

I know one of those guys owns a Toyota/Crown freaking limo from Japan so I would venture to say they are more focused on cars in general than on performance. Maybe car of the year is like the most influential or something. It certainly had a lot of hype/controversy when it came out.

i would say most controversial and arguably most hyped is cybertruck... that one easily wins that award... but doesn't win anything else lol

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by ASAP

i would say most controversial and arguably most hyped is cybertruck... that one easily wins that award... but doesn't win anything else lol

Yeah but I'm guessing they think its a bad car so thats why it gets the flat tire, whereas they like the Ioniq 5N so it wins for it's influence or what not in a positive way. Also the cybertruck came out in 2023 I believe and the Ioniq 5N in 2024.

All speculation so who knows and that's kinda my point.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I stated in some other thread a week or two ago that Government over-regulation of automobile design leads to less diversity in the market and I think you agreed with that, so I think we are on the same page there. But I what have been wondering for many years is WHY non-diversification of models is the only path for profitability. Was VW's move to their MQB platform 12 years ago THAT impactful on the cost structure of the entire mainstream vehicle industry? It seems now the industry diversity is million dollar exotics, half-million dollar supercars, and then the rest at $100K EVs and a morass of mid-price ICEV. All with an over indulgence of ADAS.

It has nothing to do with MQB, it has been going that way for a long time.

GM used to be the kings of badge engineering, and while the press gave them a lot of crap for it, it made a lot of money. The GMT360 is a great example, on that platform was the Trailblazer, the Envoy, the Rainier, the 9-7x, the Ascender, and the Bravada. Same exact chassis underneath, two lengths, same motors and transmissions, and largely similar bodies. They sold the ever loving crap out of it turning huge profits.

Now say you're looking at a high risk, low reward segment, like say the entry level sports coupe like GT86. A bespoke platform that for something that will sell a couple thousand units a year will never pay for itself. But if you can partner with Subaru, split the costs, well now you're looking at a ROI being possible. Same for BMW and the Z4/Supra.

That sort of thing works so well, so why not do it for something that's mass market with increasingly slim margins like a compact SUV? Rogue and Outlander are already clones, I would expect the next gen CRV to be jointly developed too.

Here's the thing, it's not about profits. It's about margin %. The cokeheads on Wall St don't understand that as long as something is profitable it's worth doing, they see it as "not as profitable as other activities" and so see it as a negative. That's why enthusiast cars and economy cars are so rare now, the bean counters try to position their portfolios to only have high margin products, because the Wall St types see that as an improvement in profitability of operations, because their margin % is up. So a sports car that has say, 15% margin looks bad to them if they're looking at midsize SUvs and trucks with average margins of 30%, that still profitable sports car drags down their average margin, and so the coked up analysts that know nothing about actually running a business talk about how the company is struggling with profitability and blah blah blah.

It's a sad state, our financial sector wields too much power despite being largely full of nepo babies and morons.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by R N M

So 2 dudes that drive hardcore manual cars chose an EV SUV as Car of the Year - definitely not by choice.

Originally Posted by FC4

I heard that if they didn't pick an EV, YouTube was going to shadow ban their channel.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by R N M

The Car of the Year is not based on if car is easily obtainable but if its the best. The S/T is a million times better than Ionic N. I don’t mind if Car&Driver chooses it as they are more mainstream but not the guys from Throttle House. This is how you kill your reputation that you worked years to create. I honestly was very put off by their selection.

Price has always come into their decision making, they touched on this when they gave the gong to the 3RS but the ST is another level of both cost and difficulty attaining one.

It's always a conspiracy with you guys in the states, everything is shadow government or shady or nefarious.... sometimes shit just is as it is.

[TheWatchGuy]

in an industry where everything is going EV, i can appreciate them giving love to an EV that does everything it can to make it not feel like youre driving an EV.

simulated shifting, simulated engine revving, etc. and its a fairly well performing car as well.

if you havent driven an ioniq 5n in the n-manual mode, its worth trying out. It doesnt drive like a normal EV.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

It has nothing to do with MQB, it has been going that way for a long time.

GM used to be the kings of badge engineering, and while the press gave them a lot of crap for it, it made a lot of money. The GMT360 is a great example, on that platform was the Trailblazer, the Envoy, the Rainier, the 9-7x, the Ascender, and the Bravada. Same exact chassis underneath, two lengths, same motors and transmissions, and largely similar bodies. They sold the ever loving crap out of it turning huge profits.

Now say you're looking at a high risk, low reward segment, like say the entry level sports coupe like GT86. A bespoke platform that for something that will sell a couple thousand units a year will never pay for itself. But if you can partner with Subaru, split the costs, well now you're looking at a ROI being possible. Same for BMW and the Z4/Supra.

That sort of thing works so well, so why not do it for something that's mass market with increasingly slim margins like a compact SUV? Rogue and Outlander are already clones, I would expect the next gen CRV to be jointly developed too.

Here's the thing, it's not about profits. It's about margin %. The cokeheads on Wall St don't understand that as long as something is profitable it's worth doing, they see it as "not as profitable as other activities" and so see it as a negative. That's why enthusiast cars and economy cars are so rare now, the bean counters try to position their portfolios to only have high margin products, because the Wall St types see that as an improvement in profitability of operations, because their margin % is up. So a sports car that has say, 15% margin looks bad to them if they're looking at midsize SUvs and trucks with average margins of 30%, that still profitable sports car drags down their average margin, and so the coked up analysts that know nothing about actually running a business talk about how the company is struggling with profitability and blah blah blah.

It's a sad state, our financial sector wields too much power despite being largely full of nepo babies and morons.

Agree mostly, but using your Zupra example, BMW was financially successful with the Z3, E85/86 Z4, and the E89 Z4. I never read anywhere they lost money on any of those models. Each was platform shared with the prevailing 3 series of the era. Yet, the Zupra had to be shared with Toyota (as well as Toyota and Subaru for the GT86 twins).

I still think MQB is a major factor and a level past GM's (and others) platform sharing. And platform sharing killed Cadillac and Lincoln, IMO.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Agree mostly, but using your Zupra example, BMW was financially successful with the Z3, E85/86 Z4, and the E89 Z4. I never read anywhere they lost money on any of those models. Each was platform shared with the prevailing 3 series of the era. Yet, the Zupra had to be shared with Toyota (as well as Toyota and Subaru for the GT86 twins).

I still think MQB is a major factor and a level past GM's (and others) platform sharing. And platform sharing killed Cadillac and Lincoln, IMO.

Like I said, making profit isn't enough. Z3 and Z4 may have been profitable on their own before, but by partnering with another company the outlay to develop it is cut by a huge percent, making it even MORE profitable. Bean counters like that., and don't care if it dilutes their brand.

FWIW, the platform shared SUVs at here only products that Lincoln or Caddy actually sell in any real volume. Maybe it's because SUVs are for some reason easier to platform share? I dunno, but it is the reality.

[DrVenture]

It is not really relevant that a CT, which had pent-up demand and only recently entered production, sold well in a single quarter. Or even a few quarters.

It may be relevant that there are many very low mileage examples already for sale used though. Time will tell if sales keep up, or valuations on the used market crater.

[DrVenture]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Yes, they call them conspiracy theories, because no actual proof is required.

[FC4]

Some people will believe anything. They're sheep. Just follow the money. George Soros is a major investor in Google and he pulls all the strings. He controls the narrative and he's the one behind the push for EVs so he can eventually control the population. I bet anyone who can't connect those dots also believes in "science" too.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Like I said, making profit isn't enough. Z3 and Z4 may have been profitable on their own before, but by partnering with another company the outlay to develop it is cut by a huge percent, making it even MORE profitable. Bean counters like that., and don't care if it dilutes their brand.

FWIW, the platform shared SUVs at here only products that Lincoln or Caddy actually sell in any real volume. Maybe it's because SUVs are for some reason easier to platform share? I dunno, but it is the reality.

With Caddy and Lincoln, I was going back to the pre-1970s when both companies had separate chassis and engines from Mother GM and Mother FoMoCo.

[DrVenture]

Originally Posted by FC4

Some people will believe anything. They're sheep. Just follow the money. George Soros is a major investor in Google and he pulls all the strings. He controls the narrative and he's the one behind the push for EVs so he can eventually control the population. I bet anyone who can't connect those dots also believes in "science" too.

Facts and empiricism are for naive suckers. All that really matters are anecdotes and subjective judgements. I want things like bridges and skyscrapers and dams and rockets built by fellows who learned everything they know from their cousin's barber's neighbor.

[IanH]

Lool @ senor Q

My experience driving EVs that my family have bought is that they are boring as sin. The ioniq 5 is as boring as anything.

So you could see how it's really noteworthy if they made the 5N interesting. That's huge, nobody else has unlocked that formula yet. I'd saying it's a huge achievement to make an EV fun to drive, whether you want an EV or not.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by IanH

Lool @ senor Q

My experience driving EVs that my family have bought is that they are boring as sin. The ioniq 5 is as boring as anything.

So you could see how it's really noteworthy if they made the 5N interesting. That's huge, nobody else has unlocked that formula yet. I'd saying it's a huge achievement to make an EV fun to drive, whether you want an EV or not.

I think a lot of people would argue there aren't really many interesting vehicles left, EV or not.

[Alfisti]

Modern cars suffer from three things, weight/bloat, complication and needless intrusive tech.