[RockCrusher]

As others have offered -- and this agrees with what I was told by professional auto techs -- an engine that has suffered damage due to loss of oil (or inadequate lubrication) (or overheating) is a poor candidate for a rebuild.

I doubt the engine consumed the oil. I have had an engine that due to a bad air/oil separator was using oil and might have consumed a liter or more over time but at idle the engine was smoking quite obviously. A pic is attached.

Right after the pic I shut off the engine and arranged to have the car flat bedded 90 miles to the nearest dealer to have the air/oil separator replaced.

My guess is you didn't add the correct amount oil.

My SOP is when I change the oil I count the empty bottles, twice, before I start the engine. I then check for any oil leaks.

Because I change the oil with the engine up to temperature with cars fitted with an electronic oil level measuring system I confirm the oil level reading agrees with the *fact* I put the correct amount of oil in the engine. There is the risk the electronic oil level system is *not* working properly and if so may not alert on a low oil level if it can't detect a low oil level.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by IanH

Say OP games the system for $15k on the engine replacement, I bet they pretty close to break even on selling the car with the busted engine. Might come out 1-2k ahead in total economic value (assuming nothing else is wrong).

Unless there is some emotional attachment to the car its a clear trade-in/auction situation. The only person who sees any additional value in this car is a shop who can pay themselves to do the work.

That's a good point. Another variable is if there's still a note on the car, how much is left on the loan, and any left over equity.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

As others have offered -- and this agrees with what I was told by professional auto techs -- an engine that has suffered damage due to loss of oil (or inadequate lubrication) (or overheating) is a poor candidate for a rebuild.

I doubt the engine consumed the oil. I have had an engine that due to a bad air/oil separator was using oil and might have consumed a liter or more over time but at idle the engine was smoking quite obviously. A pic is attached.

Right after the pic I shut off the engine and arranged to have the car flat bedded 90 miles to the nearest dealer to have the air/oil separator replaced.

My guess is you didn't add the correct amount oil.

My SOP is when I change the oil I count the empty bottles, twice, before I start the engine. I then check for any oil leaks.

Because I change the oil with the engine up to temperature with cars fitted with an electronic oil level measuring system I confirm the oil level reading agrees with the *fact* I put the correct amount of oil in the engine. There is the risk the electronic oil level system is *not* working properly and if so may not alert on a low oil level if it can't detect a low oil level.

And you bring up a very good point about electronic oil level sensors. Mine failed where it was periodically warning of the engine being low on oil. I was sure the oil level was fine as I did the last oil change and the car doesn't get driven a lot. I replaced the sensor and no more warnings. This is a big reason why it's stupid for manufacturers to not have a dip stick with their engines.

[pbonsalb]

I agree that burning 3L of oil in one oil change interval is something you should notice — and smell. I also think forgetting to put in 3L of oil is something you would remember if you changed it yourself. You would know you ran out and needed more or that you had half the oil leftover. But I suppose it is possible to forget.

The loan payoff, if any, is a good point. The value of the car as is versus the value after installing a used engine is also worth considering. I would guess, having done minimal research, is that a used B58 is $5-8k, that it will take a shop about half a day to pull the old motor, about half a day to transfer parts over to the used one, and a day to reinstall, check everything out, fill with fluids, align, etc. If preventative maintenance is desired, add whatever that is. Call it 20 hours of shop labor if you want. At $150 per hour — no idea where the OP lives — that is $3k. Maybe he could be on the road for closer to $10k than $15k.

A big expense whether the car is fixed or sold cheap and a new used car purchased.

[hayhay7789]

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

As others have offered — and this agrees with what I was told by professional auto techs — an engine that has suffered damage due to loss of oil (or inadequate lubrication) (or overheating) is a poor candidate for a rebuild.

I doubt the engine consumed the oil. I have had an engine that due to a bad air/oil separator was using oil and might have consumed a liter or more over time but at idle the engine was smoking quite obviously. A pic is attached.

Right after the pic I shut off the engine and arranged to have the car flat bedded 90 miles to the nearest dealer to have the air/oil separator replaced.

My guess is you didn't add the correct amount oil.

My SOP is when I change the oil I count the empty bottles, twice, before I start the engine. I then check for any oil leaks.

Because I change the oil with the engine up to temperature with cars fitted with an electronic oil level measuring system I confirm the oil level reading agrees with the *fact* I put the correct amount of oil in the engine. There is the risk the electronic oil level system is *not* working properly and if so may not alert on a low oil level if it can't detect a low oil level.

Thank you for the reply but please let me be clear that I absolutely added the correct amount of oil and frankly I am sick of being questioned over this extremely stupid and easy to verify mistake. The shop techs were less than kind to me over it and treated me like an idiot so I apologize if I’m a little sensitive over it.

I followed a very similar process to you; I measured 6.5L out in a big measure cup. I verified by counting; I purchased two 5L containers of oil and ended up with one empty and one mostly-full. I also checked the oil level on the car computer after filling and it read level normal. I had done my own oil change each of the three times and I followed the same process every time.

I did not put the wrong amount of oil in the car, and that is simply it. I am pretty sure what you said over the separator would make the most sense as my car did idle for extended times and it seems quite possible that it burned the oil through the tailpipe without me noticing.

[hayhay7789]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Not to pile on. But I don't know what you expect the shop to do with assessing the damage definitively. The only way to pin point the exact failure is to tear the engine down. Which requires labor that you have to pay for. The shop isn't going to come up with some wild guess for you to later complain if their guess is wrong. In my eyes, they did the correct things and even added oil to the engine instead of tossing their hands up saying it's your problem now when you declined the engine R&R.

Also, if you were going to DIY this job, how the heck are you going to do it when you don't have a garage and you admit the apartment rules prohibit you from working on your car in the parking lot? Any tear down is going to take time. More so without a lift. This isn't even going to a quick let me pull some cover off to do a quick check that might take a few minutes. You're looking at a couple of hours minimum and that's if you know what you're doing.

This is sort of a lessons learned thing for you. You knew there was something amiss when you said you were aware of a valve tick and oil consumption. That would have been the time to figure out the problem before it got catastrophic. Were you somehow able to do your own oil changes despite the apartment rules prohibiting you from doing so? Typically a higher pitched sound is indicative of a valvetrain problem. A deeper knocking is a bottom end issue. That would direct your attention on either pulling the valve cover or the oil pan. From your description it seems to be a deep knocking. That would mean having to [...]

Thanks for the reply.
I had my engine checked out multiple times before this occurred as I was concerned over both the valve tick and oil consumption you mentioned. I was told by multiple mechanics that those are normal operating conditions for the engine type and no work is required. I had a fairly lower class upbringing and it took me a long time to save the money for this car, so I did everything I could to research the engine, chassis and what I had to do to keep it in shape as I and my family didn’t - and still don’t, really - have the money to pay to fix expensive foreign engines. This issue with my engine came as a huge surprise as I was trying my best to stay on top of the car with what knowledge I had, and taking the car to the shop for anything beyond my reach due to lack of garage or tools. I may not have the most experience with wrench turning due to circumstances out of my control, but that is not to say that I have absolutely no idea how an engine operates or what is needed to keep them in shape. I am certainly willing to accept that I screwed it up in the last little while, but to say that I was acting foolishly with it for an extended period is simply not true - this is part of why I’m so curious about a rebuild as the engine was babied (at least by me - with this damage occurrence, it is possibly that previous owners perhaps did not) and it seems to me that the damage from what happened would be “minimal” (e.g. I wasn’t driving it around for days or weeks with the engine sounding like this). I had it checked out many times as I was very nervous about it breaking, and I was told it was fine multiple times. I suppose I perhaps should not have trusted the advice of those mechanics and did more digging myself to find the source of the problem, but I put my faith in them knowing their stuff and having seen multiple of these engines go through their care. A big reason why I want to rebuild it, myself if possible, is so I will have extensive knowledge of the car’s inner workings and can avoid getting screwed over by incorrect advice. Let me be clear that I’m not putting the blame on anyone here - I’m just clarifying that I was very observant from day one and raised my concerns to knowledgeable people. Any course of action I took was recommended by someone presumed knowledgeable in the subject.

Yes, I did my own oil changes. I drove the car off apartment property to a friend’s driveway. He didn’t mind letting me borrow his pavement for a half hour. I followed a meticulous process of verifying the exact amount of oil as I was very concerned about ruining my engine and encountering a giant repair bill. So much for that haha

The point of trying to assess the damage fully is so I could see what the extent of the damage is. I knew for sure it was “just” one damaged part vs. multiple severely damaged components, in my mind that would make sense to serve as a decision point between a definite replacement vs. a potential rebuild. I have no issue with paying a shop to do the work or pushing the easy button on this job. I would love to make this as easy as possible, but I don’t have that luxury. I am quite broke and trying to economize as much as possible on something you can’t really economize on. Call me stupid, call me poor, but I am much more comfortable in knowing for myself what the problem is when I have $16k on the line and I’m otherwise just taking someone’s word for what can or can’t be done. Again, I don’t have a ton of with working on cars hands-on so that’s why I came here to check my knowledge. As for DIY, I don’t really think I would have the space or tools to DIY it which are the only things prohibiting me from doing it. I’m certainly handy and would be able to figure out the process eventually. I’m working on getting a garage, so it’s not outside the realm of probability. It definitely would be a lot of work, but that is not something I’m afraid of. The car has been parked for a year at this point, so time is far from my main concern.

You can hear the engine in my attached video. I would say it certainly sounds like it’s coming from the top end, but I’m no expert.

I think the shop also told me they swapped filter, but only verbally. I’ll definitely give the filter a good look today either way to verify.

I really appreciate the answer, and all the time you’ve spent discussing my issue in this thread. I certainly do want to learn as much as I can and I appreciate you standing by me doing what I can to learn, even if I’m still just a beginner. I hope I won’t be a beginner for much longer.

[pbonsalb]

Even if you had a garage, DIYing an engine rebuild is not smart for a beginner. But you could drop the engine, strip off the accessories, do some disassembly to try to identify the problem, take the motor to a machine shop for repair or rebuilding, and then reinstall it. I started doing stuff like that.

If you have an oil cooler and have the car fixed, make sure the shop flushes it out since it will have metal in the oil.

[BlkGS]

I agree with IanH, this car is a parts car now. It sucks but there's no reasonable reason to put in a new motor or rebuild this motor. Junk it and move on.

[Coupsoup]

Alot of good advice here. There are a few tests you can do to isolate the problem and give yourself a better idea of what has actually failed.

Engine is already bad so don't be shy about running it so long as it has oil pressure and no timing codes.

While running unplug the coils one at a time. If the knocking becomes less audible on a specific cylinder you're looking at a connecting rod bearing or wrist pin failure on that hole.

Rev the engine up a little, if it is worse on accel it is likely connecting rod or wrist pins again. If no change or worse on decel it's likely main bearings.

If oil pressure decreases with engine temperature it is likely main bearings.

Some b58 were produced with plastic oil pumps that break, so make sure you upgrade to the metal one and make sure you replace any and all oil coolers. DO NOT FLUSH THEM!

Someone mentioned an injector leak causing ring and cylinder wall wear, I'm not sure about the b58 but any engine can experience this issue, so the borescope is a good idea. Look for the crosshatches to be worn through on the effected cylinder.

I do not recommend trying to rebuild this engine yourself.

If it was in my shop

Check for timing codes, look at data for oil level sensor. If oil level is good and no timing codes start the engine.

Unplug coils one at a time to establish if it is con rod/wrist pin or main bearing issue.

If it is found to be cylinder specific remove plugs and borescope the affected hole.

Rotate engine so that the piston is at the bottom of it's stroke and inspect the complete cylinder wall for damage. Check the top of the piston for chips or cracks that could explain oil consumption.

If nothing obvious is found here perform a complete compression test.

If compression is low perform leakdown test.

If no obvious failures and good compression suspect oil pump failure resulting in bearing failure.

Good luck!

[hayhay7789]

Thank you everyone for all the advice and input so far. You are all supremely helpful and I am immensely grateful for your help.

Just posting some photos of my oil filter. The photos are a bit hard to capture effectively, but the inside of the housing has plenty of metal flaking on the bottom and sides. The oil itself is certainly sparkly; not overwhelmingly so, but small metal glitters are easily seen in the oil. I saw someone mentioned the colour, and it seems that all the metal flakes are shiny-silvery while the oil is the usual dark caramel. I didn’t run the engine so it’s quite possible that there is more that settled elsewhere.

I gather that this is not good news. I seem to have lost my spark plug socket so I will need to get a new one to post my findings from that here.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Coupsoup

Rev the engine up a little, if it is worse on accel it is likely connecting rod or wrist pins

This is good advice to diagnose rodbearing knock

But seeing your photo's....that's not good
That amount of glitter in the oil....that's not one rodbearing or so. That is damage of multiple bearings.

And it's not just the glitter, I see considerable chunks (0,5-1mm) on the bottom side of the oil filter.
Even if it would've come just from the rodbearings and the filter caught it all, you also probably need a new crankshaft. All these together makes looking for a donor engine a better choice.

Your car is an attractive buy for a diy'er (or small shop) that can put in a donor engine themselves from a wreck and sell the car on or use it themselves.

[Coupsoup]

Yikes those pictures are bad news. The pic of the filter shows what are clearly aluminum chips.

Cylinder walls, connecting rods, bearings and piston rings are not aluminum. I am strongly suspecting oil pump failure. It is also possible a broken chain guide or something is allowing the chain to contact aluminum. It is possible a piston skirt is damaged from piston slap/pin failure.

[GuidoK]

I'm not so sure those larger chips on the oil filter bottom are aluminium. Could just as well be steel or molten bearingsurface (I don't think it's lead anymore, but maybe tin or bismuth or something like that)

A magnet will show if it's steel, and if you can hold the larger chunks with a tweezer you could check with a lighter if it melts really fast. Aluminium also melts relatively fast, but bearing surface material just shrivels up immedately (such a small piece anyways).

[Coupsoup]

Oh yeah there's clearly other metals in there, it's the aluminum that is abnormal for a knocking engine.

[hayhay7789]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I'm not so sure those larger chips on the oil filter bottom are aluminium. Could just as well be steel or molten bearingsurface (I don't think it's lead anymore, but maybe tin or bismuth or something like that)

A magnet will show if it's steel, and if you can hold the larger chunks with a tweezer you could check with a lighter if it melts really fast. Aluminium also melts relatively fast, but bearing surface material just shrivels up immedately (such a small piece anyways).

Thanks for the tip. I tried a few magnets on the oil and wasn’t able to attract any of the little bits. It would seem that perhaps they are indeed aluminum, or at the very least a non ferromagnetic metal.

[hayhay7789]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

This is good advice to diagnose rodbearing knock

But seeing your photo's....that's not good
That amount of glitter in the oil....that's not one rodbearing or so. That is damage of multiple bearings.

And it's not just the glitter, I see considerable chunks (0,5-1mm) on the bottom side of the oil filter.
Even if it would've come just from the rodbearings and the filter caught it all, you also probably need a new crankshaft. All these together makes looking for a donor engine a better choice.

Your car is an attractive buy for a diy'er (or small shop) that can put in a donor engine themselves from a wreck and sell the car on or use it themselves.

Thank you for all the information. I sadly concur with your opinion.

I’ve attached an updated quote for my repair work. I honestly feel that they are being very fair in their labour charges and itemization, but the cost of the engine went up significantly. Obviously, I want a good candidate engine to take my current one’s place, and B58s aren’t cheap, but $12,500 is eye watering considering the quote last year.

Do any of you have any recommendations for good places to find donor motors? I’ve only managed to find a used B58 on eBay and a Euro part site (whose name evades me currently). I am not exactly keen on sourcing my own motor and supplying it to the shop, considering logistics and the likely loss of the shop warranty, but if I can find a reliable supplier with a fair price I’ll go that route. Sadly my options are somewhat limited due to being Canadian as import taxes are ridiculous, and I’m not having the best luck at finding motors with less than 120k+ km on them. The engine they quoted for me has about half, at 67k km.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Coupsoup

I am strongly suspecting oil pump failure.

But if the oil pump has failed, there wouldn't be any oil pressure now. I understood that the oil pressure light was now off when idling?

I expect all the aluminium comes indeed from damaged pistons skirts or something like that.
I think if it was in the timing chain/distribution side it wouldn't sound like a tick but more of a constant racket. But it doesn't really matter anymore I guess, the value of this engine is now in it's ancillary parts bolted onto it. The core is a write off I imagine.

Originally Posted by hayhay7789

Do any of you have any recommendations for good places to find donor motors? I’ve only managed to find a used B58 on eBay and a Euro part site (whose name evades me currently). I am not exactly keen on sourcing my own motor and supplying it to the shop, considering logistics and the likely loss of the shop warranty, but if I can find a reliable supplier with a fair price I’ll go that route.

I'm in europe, so no recommendations here. Here, if I look around, (also ebay and local craiglists equivalents), used B58 engines are usually in the $3.5k-$6k price range (complete engine with ancillairies).
But that's a used engine. If you want shop guarantee, they'll charge you double. So there's that $12k coming from. Sourcing a used engine from who knows where is a huge risk for a shop.
Obviously these engines come from wrecked cars, and engines can have cracks in the casting (also internally) if it was in a crash, plus the rest of the history is obviously unknown. And when buying a used engine, having it heard running before the buy is usually not an option as modern engines require quite a complicated test stand.
An old diesel you can start when it's lying on the floor...

This is why this car is now an attractive buy for a small shop or individual diy'er. Sourcing an engine in their own time (they can look for say...half a year, maybe from an inspeced wreck), and doing the work in their own time (lost hours) makes it far more economical.

[hayhay7789]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

But if the oil pump has failed, there wouldn't be any oil pressure now. I understood that the oil pressure light was now off when idling?

I expect all the aluminium comes from damaged pistons skirts or something like that.

Correct, no more oil pressure light. Once shop finished refilling car with oil, pressure light was done for good. Even on the night it happened the light only came on briefly then went away.

[Coupsoup]

Reports I see of b58 pump failures vary from total catastrophic to spikes and lows of pressure as well as aeration of the oil. One early indicator of pump failure is the inability to perform the oil level check. Excess aeration causes oil level to fluctuate too much for the check to run.

Oil level can be functionally low without being low enough to trigger a light. Most of the red oil lights trigger in the sub 15psi range whereas idle pressure is typically 35psi or more.

Since timing tensioners are supplied oil pressure it only takes one low pressure event to break plastic guides etc.

I agree that the piston is a likely source of this aluminum.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Coupsoup

Most of the red oil lights trigger in the sub 15psi range

That is indeed true.
Does the B58 have an oil pressure sensor that can be read with OBD2?
So to easily see oil pressure without actually mounting an oil pressure sender to the block?
If so, that would be interesting for the TS to look at (a cheap obd2 reader is always useful to have anyways)

With this amount of oil loss, this damaging of the engine must have been going on for a while. The only place the oil could've went is burning in the combustion chamber, so there must be wear on the pistonrings.
(provided he didn't make a mistake with the oil change). From what I understand, it must've burned 3L of oil in 4000km
But why no alarm from the oil level indicator? I assume the b58 has one.

[Coupsoup]

There is still the possibility that the turbo shaft seal is the source of the burning oil, and that the damage is from low oil condition due to consumption.

[Tejas1836]

https://www.rkautowerks.com/index.ph...tion-m2-m3-m4/

https://www.projectmmotors.com/produ...b58-s58-engine