[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by reallymarkedup

Hey are you the guy who also takes pictures of bigfoot?

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply, but having spent few winters in the midwest with a RWD BMW there is absolutely no way in hell I'll ever do it again. Digging yourself out of the snow all the time sucks about as much as anything. It will be AWD and a set of snow tires for the winter.

[reallymarkedup]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply, but having spent few winters in the midwest with a RWD BMW there is absolutely no way in hell I'll ever do it again. Digging yourself out of the snow all the time sucks about as much as anything. It will be AWD and a set of snow tires for the winter.

Nothing other than that both of their photos were blurry and out of focus.

[T-Dubbs]

I absolutely LOVE my 535dx for a daily.
Has a wild amount of TQ (once deleted), which makes commutes through traffic a breeze.
I went from a x5 35d (deleted) to this F10, and couldn't be happier with my choice. Its so much nicer to drive

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply, but having spent few winters in the midwest with a RWD BMW there is absolutely no way in hell I'll ever do it again. Digging yourself out of the snow all the time sucks about as much as anything. It will be AWD and a set of snow tires for the winter.

I've driven my RWD M235 6MT through every Kansas City winter since 2016. I live in a pretty hilly area in southwest Kansas City too. I ran winter tires for the first 3 years on the M235 and then just went to all seasons for the remaining years because it was a waste since there is only snow on main roads for maybe 20-25 days throughout the winter. Never gotten stuck, but I've only driven in 3" or less snow. Never saw the need to venture out in deep snow unless it's an absolute emergency.

I'll be buying a new 2WD F150 5.0 shortly. I like to live on the edge I guess when it comes to winter driving and lots of power and RWD Not going to waste $5K just to have 4WD which I'd hardly ever use. I will probably put sandbags in that truck though in the winter.

[freakystyly]

Everyone's got their own comfort level in the snow. I have to admit uphill from a stop in RWD is super lame when there's no traction. I'm thankful and also a bit bitter our region has excellent snow crews in the winter that keep the roads heavily salted. Never had any issues driving RWD manuals year round.

[RM7]

There’s always the person on these boards that claims to run racing slicks with RWD on frozen lakes.

[reallymarkedup]

Originally Posted by RM7

There’s always the person on these boards that claims to run racing slicks with RWD on frozen lakes.

Well yeah, but they're studded racing slicks. I'm not that good

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by RM7

There’s always the person on these boards that claims to run racing slicks with RWD on frozen lakes.

The big issue with urban winter driving is braking, not traction. AWD does nothing for braking.

[freakystyly]

RWD are going the way of the manual transmission. Even the local BMW/mini dealer has only about 5% RWD and they're electric.

I wonder how people ever survived without SUVs and AWD in the past.

[TboneS54]

2011 e90 m3

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

RWD are going the way of the manual transmission. Even the local BMW/mini dealer has only about 5% RWD and they're electric.

I wonder how people ever survived without SUVs and AWD in the past.

It was easy, we weren't dumbasses.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

RWD are going the way of the manual transmission. Even the local BMW/mini dealer has only about 5% RWD and they're electric.

I wonder how people ever survived without SUVs and AWD in the past.

We have a TON of RWD BMWs down here in FL. It's actually fairly rare to see Xdrive ones, even SUVs. Xdrive cars are all but non existent outside of M Perfs and above. You average X3 or X5 here is an sDrive lease special.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

I wonder how people ever survived without SUVs and AWD in the past.

Me too. I had FWD and RWD cars from the late 1980s until 2012 when I got a WRX and then I went back to RWD three years later. Again, I live in Kansas City where we do get decent snow and ice between December and March. It is also surprisingly hilly throughout Kansas City.

All my friends in high school and college had FWD cars and RWD trucks and muscle cars. Knowing someone that had a 4WD vehicle was a rarity and usually was someone's dad that had a 4X4 truck and he ran a construction business. Seeing a car with AWD in the 1980s and 1990s was really special and typically associated with sporty cars like the Diamond Star cars, 3000GT VR4 and Dodge Stealth variant. No one ran snow tires and there was no such thing as winter tires. Tires back then weren't remotely as advanced as they are today either. Also, prior to the mid 2000s, cop cars used to be big full size sedans with RWD and a V8. No cop cars ran winter or snow tires in Kansas City and I never saw them stuck in the snow.

I don't ever recall us freaking out about driving in the snow. A nuisance? Sure. Now I'd say that 2WD cars are becoming the minority, even in place that don't receive any real snow. Such a freaking waste of money, the added weight, lower mpgs, and all the cost that goes with maintaining and repairing a 4WD/AWD drivetrain. People have drank the Koolaid.

What amuses me a lot are those that say they need AWD for the winter and when you see their AWD car, it's riding on wide rubber that's geared towards performance. That setup is worse in the snow than a 2WD car on basic all seasons

[DrVenture]

As someone who started driving in the mid-1970's and had a plethora of RWD cars with sketchy tires, I've been there. I managed. And as someone who always had a 40 mile winter night time commute, on often unplowed roads, I definitely appreciate AWD. I don't run summer performance tires, just good all-seasons. Being on the Illinois/Wisconsin border, I have driven through stuff most only imagine. Ice is rarely the issue. But, pulling out into traffic, even in the rain, AWD FTMFW!

And given that engine braking impacts all four wheels with AWD, my experience is that it does actually help with stopping. Moreso, having high horsepower cars, I appreciate AWD a lot. On my RWD 640 HP coupe I have to run drag radials. Nothing else cuts it. But, horrible in bad weather. With my stock M550, I've lit 'em up at 40 MPH from a roll on a sunny day. RWD would be laughable.

What amuses me is laying the smack down on much faster cars on wet or cold days with an AWD beast, while they are spinning their rear tires. Makes me smile!

Back on topic: My DD is a 2022 M550i with Continental DSW06+

[RM7]

With most of the weight on the front, RWD really struggle anywhere you need to start or accelerate when on snow/ice. As soon as you get on the gas, you are either spinning or kicking out the rear end.

Lots of people *think* they are experiencing winter conditions, but the ground is warm and above freezing and it's slush that nothing deals with well, except chains. Here, the sun gets low and snow impacts into ice that doesn't go away until we get into late February and March. We get the "real" black ice where frost forms directly on the asphalt. It has a very specific look. During the winter, we get rain at times too...but it's usually freezing rain, the ground is cold and below freezing. I've watched as the temp is exactly 32 and it's raining and it changes from water to ice and cars start going sideways everywhere.

In general, studded tires are extremely helpful here, they keep you from being the a$$ at the stoplight/sign that is spinning your wheels instead of going with the light. Even they don't help *that much* with a RWD car that has most of the weight up front. They help with handling and braking...but acceleration and starting, still pretty sketchy.

Most comparisons I see with studded and non-studded are always in snow...not ice, where they are used. These are usually the ones pushing the "non-studded" snow tires, but here, you are on ice a lot of the time and these don't brake anything like a studded tire.

AWD is super helpful for starting in these conditions and accelerating. The problem is that AWD lets you easily out-accelerate your braking and turning traction.

I'll take my RWD car out in the winter a few times, I have studded snow tires for it, but this ain't warm snow conditions or some of the ridiculous stuff that people think is winter. Even still it's a handful and you have to be extremely careful.

The number of places that push AWD for the "occasional" conditions is pretty crazy tho.

[pbonsalb]

I drove RWD only with snow wheels in PA and NH winters for over 30 years. Practice helps. Most of the vehicles I see that have slid off the road in winter are 4WD or AWD. Those drivers never learned how to drive in snow and thought having 4 powered wheels was all they needed.

I did change my primary driver to AWD a few years ago, but more to put big power down under more circumstances — like cold and wet — than to be able to drive in snow. All my RWD cars have been modded and some to pretty high power levels, one to the point where I need R compound tires to hook up in even warm and dry weather (formerly supercharged now turbocharged E36 M3 — and I have snow wheels for it).

I used studs for only one set of snow wheels, probably 25-30 years ago. They are the best for ice. But that is about it and the handling and dry traction are worse. Not every winter day even in NH is snowy and icy. It seems like much if the time the roads are pretty good and you can enjoy higher speeds. I gave even changed from hard core highly snows with low speed ratings and soft sidewalls to more performance oriented snows. They do compromise snow performance but are still better than all seasons, which are far better than summers (summers won’t go anywhere in some of the conditions I drive). AWD helps, but I ran performance winters on my modded E90 M3 for 10 years in NH. The last 2 winters, I have run all seasons on my F90 M5 — better high speed driving and handling in good conditions and they get me around in snow. I do have a set of snow wheels for that car, but have not put them in in 2 years. Also have summer wheels but those go on in April and come off in November.

[Alfisti]

I think Alaska and say, urban Toronto are very different places re. the need for grip.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I drove RWD only with snow wheels in PA and NH winters for over 30 years. Practice helps. Most of the vehicles I see that have slid off the road in winter are 4WD or AWD. Those drivers never learned how to drive in snow and thought having 4 powered wheels was all they needed.

I did change my primary driver to AWD a few years ago, but more to put big power down under more circumstances — like cold and wet — than to be able to drive in snow. All my RWD cars have been modded and some to pretty high power levels, one to the point where I need R compound tires to hook up in even warm and dry weather (formerly supercharged now turbocharged E36 M3 — and I have snow wheels for it).

I used studs for only one set of snow wheels, probably 25-30 years ago. They are the best for ice. But that is about it and the handling and dry traction are worse. Not every winter day even in NH is snowy and icy. It seems like much if the time the roads are pretty good and you can enjoy higher speeds. I gave even changed from hard core highly snows with low speed ratings and soft sidewalls to more performance oriented snows. They do compromise snow performance but are still better than all seasons, which are far better than summers (summers won’t go anywhere in some of the conditions I drive). AWD helps, but I ran performance winters on my modded E90 M3 for 10 years in NH. The last 2 winters, I have run all seasons on my F90 M5 — better high speed driving and handling in good conditions and they get me around in snow. I do have a set of snow wheels for that car, but have not put them in in 2 years. Also have summer wheels but those go on in April and come off in November.

I live in the mid-Atlantic and we get our fair share of snow. I've been driving (in the snow) since the late 1970's before there were "snow tires" in the US (studs yes - but dedicated snows... no). There were no AWD cars either, other than the AMC Eagle and Audi Quattro, but that was well into the 1980's. Tires were... rubber round things and called bias-ply. The problem with snow is ground clearance more than traction. I drive 4x4 trucks in the snow for ground clearance. But with the road treatments used now, they eat the ever-living shit out of steel bodied cars. Winter New England ruined three of my trucks in the past 30 years. At this point I just stay home rather than turn my truck into a cathode...

[x3sm]

For such a massive car, it handles so well.