[hoyasaxa]

Originally Posted by CodeSlinger

Well when you can properly define what makes an f87 a sports car and a g87 not a sports car let me know.

500 pounds for a weak 10% power:weight improvement.

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

Why are you here shitting on the parade?

I love BMW and they’re making me sad. And I originally commented because the fanboys were dragging TH

[JEM3]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

GT4 is weak sauce, he should be sad he didn’t get the GT4RS with the Weissach package. That’s the only true 718 that matters

$150k markup, they can keep the one that matters :-p

[CodeSlinger]

Originally Posted by hoyasaxa

500 pounds for a weak 10% power:weight improvement.

uh wut?, it's barely 250 lbs heavier. That's a pretty thin line between 3600 lbs being light enough for a sports car and 3750 lbs being suddenly too heavy. The f87 was no featherweight, it weighed as much as the f series m4.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by JEM3

$150k markup, they can keep the one that matters :-p

I’d be sad NOT to spend that kind of markup just to prove I’m not poor like a G87 owner, plus the base 718 looks like an egg. Needs lots of CFRP and wings and loud noises and vents and induction etc. (Note the sarcasm and where this thread began )

[DO444]

Originally Posted by hoyasaxa

There’s more to being a sports car than the numbers. BMW has cheapened materials, made design decisions that are wrong (iPad kickstand dash, ugly exterior, cheap plastics), and they have removed a measure of joy from the car. Not all. But a measure. And it’s the way all their cars are headed.

The word “weak” was used in the context of mods squelching debate.

Do you have id8?
I criticized it too based on looks and now I have it.

It’s awesome.
Fits nicely on the dash and it’s solid. Doesn’t move at all. The software is great, very quick.

I do think a lot of this is just people being upset that it’s not what it was. You’re right, it’s not what it was, but it is objectively better in every way.

I applaud BMW for putting function over form. The whole “takes multiple button presses” is way overblown. There’s no need for buttons when you speak to the car and tell it what you want it to do. If you really like using your hands to change your comfort settings then you can do that easily, but it is not what it was.

Imo, it’s better.

Id8 is flipping fantastic.
The screens can be shut off at night btw, there’s no downside.

It’s not what it was.
It’s objectively better.

In addition, everyone… literally everyone, remarks how the G series finally has an interior worthy of its price. Best BMW interior I’ve ever seen, easy. It makes much more expensive cars from the past 5yr look sad.

Borderline thinking this is just a troll at this point because there’s no way anyone could legit say the F series has a better interior than the G. That’s laughable.

[JEM3]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

I’d be sad NOT to spend that kind of markup just to prove I’m not poor like a G87 owner, plus the base 718 looks like an egg. Needs lots of CFRP and wings and loud noises and vents and induction etc. (Note the sarcasm and where this thread began )

lmao!

[T_U_D]

This went live 45 minutes ago. The BMW G87 M2: An Enthusiast Review

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by boostm3

I believe those are estimates by C&D, not instrumented tests.

"We estimate that the M2 will hit 60 mph in 3.5 seconds when equipped with the optional eight-speed automatic; ordering the standard six-speed manual transmission will likely result in a slightly slower result in the same metric."

One of the video reviews clocks the auto at 3.67!

[turbowilly]

Originally Posted by M2PDX

One of the video reviews clocks the auto at 3.67!

BMWBLOG also got 3.5

[donm527]

Yeah you can see he brings the speed down to 35 then tries to nail it and it struggles to get the rpms up quickly... in third gear.

Originally Posted by Daily Downshift

At 12:30 in the video, he mentions that in 3rd gear, you start to feel the boost come on later.. Probably a lot slower than on the M3. At 12:40 he steps on it in 3rd gear while driving 35mph and the pickup is very slow, I must say. Seems like TH were definitely onto something with the slow pickup/torque in lower rev ranges with stick.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by aerobod

The S58 characteristics are still going to be fundamentally the same, as has been experienced by G8x and F9x S58 implementations with perceived low output at low revs cmpared with S55 predecessors (masked in the auto versions that comprise most S58 vehicle iterations). Same turbos and control systems, just different boost pressures that will affect the top-end output. The ratios of torque built at a given RPM are going to be similar for the 550Nm, 600Nm, 620Nm or 650Nm iterations.

There isn't going to be a major change in how the torque is built at low RPM without a significantly different design. The design philosophy for the S55 vs S58 is also detailed in the doc link I posted. The S58 is not going to be making anything close to maximum torque at 1900RPM without a change in compression ratio, control philosophy and turbo sizing.

Sorry, I don’t believe this chart… and I don’t believe that torque curve for the G87.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

Why?

Have you driven one?
Car is slow outside of boost, that’s why.

[Zeroblade]

This thing is too ugly to care about its performance. In person didn't help either unlike the G80.

[CodeSlinger]

Originally Posted by Zeroblade

This thing is too ugly to care about its performance. In person didn't help either unlike the G80.

Biggest disagree, though I used to have a first gen mazda 3 too, underrated first car.

[Reddevils7]

Originally Posted by moodyhank82

Who in their right mind will be cross-shopping a base M2 with a 718 GTS 4.0? This is like someone posting on the 718 forum saying "I don't regret buying my 296 GTB". If you can afford a GTS 4.0 and don't need the back seats, 100% of the time you buy the 718. What did you think the base M2 was going to be like to better a N/A flat 6 mid-engine Porsche?

It's not base but for what it's worth I bought a M2CS over a gt4. But that's because I daily it more than I track it

[NYG1121]

Dont have a dog in the fight but damn this thing is 30 pages already!

[Germanauto]

Lookin forward to driving it...whenever that happens as the few examples out there are all marked up.

Consensus seems it's less playful than the last car but more technically competent. M240 is a decent enough driving ride (albeit a bit serious-feeling), I'm sure this turns it up to 11.

Weight is concerning but it all depends on one's expectations. The Giulia QV is one of the most exciting cars I've ever driven and it too is ~3800 lbs. The M2 weighs about that, just have to accept it for what it is rather than expecting Porsche Cayman-esque reflexes.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

I did not drive the G87, of course, but I did drive the manual G80 and I was rather disappointed, I really would have liked closer ratios.
I read that you have an E90 335i, that's a completely different engine (both N54 and N55) with impressive low end torque that can handle long ratios with no problem, the S58 is a monster but unfortunately doesn't do as well with long ratios.
My dilemma is that the ZF8 is not engaging enough but fits the engine perfectly, whereas the 6MT is much more engaging but makes the car too slow, the 7 speed DCT would be perfect

The N55, in my case. And yes, it's a forgiving motor with its eager dual scroll at the low end, that's true.

But I ALSO grew up driving high compression Japanese motors, many NA. Also motorcycles. So, working to stay in a narrow power band are not offputting to me.

And yes, a high-end-biased torque curve across only 6 gears is annoying if you care about 0-60, 0-100, etc. If you drive to "chase numbers," then sure the automatic probably is more fun. I get it.

For me, personally, managing RPMs is "part of the fun." So, this is a feature, not a bug.

And I'll agree that it's a shame that DCTs are not an option.

[booya_45]

Originally Posted by Nettles

Doug DeMoron and Matt Farah? I rather watch straight pipes

Yup. Trash and trash. Same same.

[TheMaxXHD]

In the 29 pages, all I have learned is that if anything, this entire issue shows just how damn good the ZF8 transmission is.

No fuss, no issues, no worries about feel. It just works, and is sharp as heck for an auto. It stands out among the best auto transmissions out there.

The ZF8 is tuned to near perfection.

[hoyasaxa]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

In the 29 pages, all I have learned is that if anything, this entire issue shows just how damn good the ZF8 transmission is.

No fuss, no issues, no worries about feel. It just works, and is sharp as heck for an auto. It stands out among the best auto transmissions out there.

The ZF8 is tuned to near perfection.

I enjoyed the ZF8 in my F22 but as good as it is, it doesn’t compare in feel to DCT/DSG/PDK (M2, GTI, 718). The driving character is different. Not as different as going 6MT to auto, but definitely different.

The lack of a DCT is a negative. It’s just like the choice to go to EPS or to turbocharging.

The problem with these cars is the additive effect of all of these easy but numbing choices. It’s harder to engineer a high output NA engine with a MT with strong clutch (or DCT with strong clutch).

And eventually we just end up with a 3800-pound numb experience.

All that said, there’s no question that the new car is designed with the ZF8 in mind and that probably the 6MT is the wrong transmission.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Sorry, I don’t believe this chart… and I don’t believe that torque curve for the G87.

Based on what real data, vs a belief? The real dyno results that have been posted for G8x and F9x S58 stock engined vehicles all show the torque at 2000RPM at about 60% or so of maximum and where below 2000RPM is shown, 50% of maximum is normal at 1900RPM, it is certainly not like the S55 at those revs where 100% of torque has been reached.

For example: https://www.motor1.com/photo/5666110...-distribution/

https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/ima...8-engine_2.jpg

https://www.flickr.com/photos/evolve...e/52468072056/

I would also trust the engineers design goals expressed in BMW training matertial for the S58 engine over unverified 3rd party data not based on any measured results.